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[New structures] Item safety mechanics on structure destruction

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Destiny Dain2
Your Destiny Corporation
#281 - 2015-05-15 21:40:56 UTC
Dustpuppy wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:

Outposts should be destroyable , but not NPC stations.


I share this opinion because you should have at least some places where you can leave your stuff and go on holidays or do something else for a while without the fear of loosing everything.

In case CCP decides in a different way then I propose that not only null sec/low sec stations can be blown up but also Highsec ones - with the same results for the poor ones who are hit by this "accident". Being forced to move out their goods, loose stuff, collecting floating cans and so on. And then I really would just sit around laughing about the ones who up voted this idea when Jita IV is blown up in the next "burn Jita" event.




I completely agree, and if you choose not to join a huge alliance, just going to sleep at night could be the time when you lose everything do to trolls. New players will feel like anything that they put up has no security and they won't bother, they will just join an alliance causing the map to be split between a few alliances. People going on vacation will quit, because what's the point of coming back when all their work will be gone by the time they get back. You always need NPC station for newbies and for safe retreat for people who just lost everything and need to rebuild..
Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#282 - 2015-05-17 18:12:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sayod Physulem
Maybe some inspiration:

The station owner can call "Evacuation" that means escape pods with all the assets will be jettisoned into the system.
If you call Evacuation when the station is undamaged, the Evacuation will go smootly and ALL the assets will be jettisoned in escape pod with cloaks.

The more damaged the station gets the more Escape pods get damaged. Maybe their cloak has malfuntions and the pods can be scanned down after a certain amount of time. Maybe the escape pod is so badly damaged that it can't even be jettisoned and all the assets stay in the station wreck. Next thing - how damaged is the firewall? If it is fully intact the escape pod can only be accesed by the owner of the assets. If it is partly damaged you need to hack it, and the hacking difficulty decreases with the damage.

So basically you have escape containers with 3 modules:
- Launch module (if damaged it stays in the wreck) ---------------------------------------------- where (wreck or scattered with bookmark)
- cloak module (if damaged it will be scanable after a certain amount of time) ------------ time (until able to be accessed by everyone)
- access firewall (if damaged it will be hackable - difficulty depending on the damage) - by whom (and how easy)

Damage to the station has a chance of damaging the escape container modules. If all the modules are completely intact it is impossible for the attacer to retrieve any loot.

So you might just want to jettison all the assets when the station gets attacked the first time? Well you can do that. But if you win the siege you have to collect all your items spread in space Roll
So you might want to wait with the evacuation? Well the longer you wait the less likely it is that your assets are still safe Twisted

So there it is Risk vz Reward. Do you risk waiting with the evacuation? Or do you want to play it safe certainly have to do a retrieval op?

You could maybe buy escape pod of different quality and use them just like station containers to store and sort your assets in the station. (There could maybe even be very expensive escape pods with jump drives that can jump to a cyno lighted in a nearby system)
This could also explain the origin of relic and data sites and make the spawn of them more related to the player driven events.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#283 - 2015-05-17 18:33:08 UTC
Sayod Physulem wrote:
Maybe some inspiration:

The station owner can call "Evacuation" that means escape pods with all the assets will be jettisoned into the system.
If you call Evacuation when the station is undamaged, the Evacuation will go smootly and ALL the assets will be jettisoned in escape pod with cloaks.

The more damaged the station gets the more Escape pods get damaged. Maybe their cloak has malfuntions and the pods can be scanned down after a certain amount of time. Maybe the escape pod is so badly damaged that it can't even be jettisoned and all the assets stay in the station wreck. Next thing - how damaged is the firewall? If it is fully intact the escape pod can only be accesed by the owner of the assets. If it is partly damaged you need to hack it, and the hacking difficulty decreases with the damage.

So basically you have escape containers with 3 modules:
- Launch module (if damaged it stays in the wreck) ---------------------------------------------- where (wreck or scattered with bookmark)
- cloak module (if damaged it will be scanable after a certain amount of time) ------------ time (until able to be accessed by everyone)
- access firewall (if damaged it will be hackable - difficulty depending on the damage) - by whom (and how easy)

Damage to the station has a chance of damaging the escape container modules. If all the modules are completely intact it is impossible for the attacer to retrieve any loot.

So you might just want to jettison all the assets when the station gets attacked the first time? Well you can do that. But if you win the siege you have to collect all your items spread in space Roll
So you might want to wait with the evacuation? Well the longer you wait the less likely it is that your assets are still safe Twisted

So there it is Risk vz Reward. Do you risk waiting with the evacuation? Or do you want to play it safe certainly have to do a retrieval op?

You could maybe buy escape pod of different quality and use them just like station containers to store and sort your assets in the station. (There could maybe even be very expensive escape pods with jump drives that can jump to a cyno lighted in a nearby system)
This could also explain the origin of relic and data sites and make the spawn of them more related to the player driven events.
there is no station damage.
Sayod Physulem
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#284 - 2015-05-17 18:36:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Sayod Physulem
Rowells wrote:
there is no station damage.

Shocked And how do you destroy a station then?

EDIT: I am sutpid ... Because of the new entosis system the station gets destroyd after the capture already happend - so well...

But you can still aply this gradual loss of assets to the entosis system. The further into the capture process the less assets you can save. It doesn't matter if this further in, means damage in structure grind or if it means capture progress in the entosis system.

It is just harder to explain lore wise without damage taken ...
Gorbs el
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#285 - 2015-05-18 03:56:24 UTC
Hi, I would like to give an idea.

You can allow players to fitting a module in a L and XL structure. It can be add a module named as "hangar jump bright" or something like that. In the station the corporation/alliance will need to have this device in one of modules space (low slot, hi slot or rig (I think fomenting this big and important must be placed as a rig) and therefore it will be up to you to use ir or not.

If you think you can defend your base and don't need this "insurance" you can have another module instead. This is far more fare with others players. If you don't have, all that you have inside can be salvage or be recovered, if the attacker or other one in the area have the appropriated ship.

If the station company don't have this kind of "rig/module" in the station, because they don;t want to have the rig ou the have a Small station, they can have a special container, encrypted container and you must use data analyzers and others stuff (the same you do in exploration). How cool is that?

There is a limitation on how far you can send your stuff. You need fuel to make this work, depending how much stuff do you have inside the station. If the auto destruction is activated this module is activated and send your stuff to the near NPC station, or to another structure of yours (this other one must have the same device in it) and the near npc station (must to have a special hangar for your corporation/alliance were you keep fuel to allow the portal to be opened. (this station must have this service to supply like the clone bay or other service, and you must pay a fee to use it).

In this way it can be far more realistic (as possible) and have all your stuff send to safety if you are careful to keep all your station with fuel, and have setup this device prior the attack at least one day in advanced (to prevent plug in the module only if the attack is eminent).

This could be a big rig to the station and will change the station appearance like a portal or something like that. It must to be very large and have all the parts to form it, maybe the same of the jump bright but bigger.

I love this idea! I didn't see any one coming here with a better one and I will appreciate an answer!


Best regards,


Lolsorry about the English!
Pine Marten
Doomheim
#286 - 2015-05-18 08:52:30 UTC
It is horrible to see all the risk aversion going on in this thread.

Lets take a lesson from the Cold hars real life. If a station blows up, almost nothing is recoverable. lets say 15 % survives as loot, and the rest is just junk and salvage parts.

Gorbs el
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#287 - 2015-05-18 13:15:05 UTC
Pine Marten wrote:
It is horrible to see all the risk aversion going on in this thread.

Lets take a lesson from the Cold hars real life. If a station blows up, almost nothing is recoverable. lets say 15 % survives as loot, and the rest is just junk and salvage parts.




CCP knows no one will use this kind of station as they use a NPC station if all they have will be lost for a massive fleet, or some times even a small one. Losing a Station (for more expensive it can be) is something, but losing all yours ships, modules, sometimes big amount of isk in equipment and products, will make this kind of station no more than a big and expensive outpost, or a weapon station... How can you expect start a Comercial Hub in Null sec if your stuff isn's secure?

Is just my opinion, but even if you don't like the complexity of my idea, you can remove the necessity of fuel, or the range limit of it, but send all your container station over a jump bright to the near npc station, is a good idea.
w1ndstrike
White Talon Holdings
#288 - 2015-05-18 21:23:24 UTC
Pine Marten wrote:
It is horrible to see all the risk aversion going on in this thread.

Lets take a lesson from the Cold hars real life. If a station blows up, almost nothing is recoverable. lets say 15 % survives as loot, and the rest is just junk and salvage parts.



its not risk aversion as much as "what is required to keep the game healthy and functional?"

having barren wastelands for 20 jumps in every direction is not content, it is death.
Kenneth Fritz
DND Industries
#289 - 2015-05-19 08:05:22 UTC
What about a modified form of insurance through the use of InterBus. It would work similarly to how clones use to work. Each grade of coverage safeguards progressive amounts of stuff. The distance moved can cap out using either jumps or light years. The bigger the coverage the shorter the distance to say (if using jumps) 3 jumps. For anything capital size or bigger but them of the list of drop-able items from the station's destruction. If they are destroyed you get the normal insurance payout provided you kept it current. If they drop they are free game to whomsoever picks it up first. This would typically mean abandoning whatever it is you're flying at the time.

Furthermore the items insured by InterBus would be prioritized by the est. cost. Then higher the est. cost the higher on the priority list. Pricing for the policies could follow similar guideline to current insurance or even use the old clone grade scale. This would make it affordable to most and would further add an element of risk/gain. You would have to ask yourself how much of your stuff are you willing to lose when purchasing the insurance if you weren't able/willing to pay for coverage that would cover all you own.

Who's your end of the world buddy?
Saberlily Whyteshadow
Perkone
Caldari State
#290 - 2015-05-19 13:00:21 UTC
I'll say that this is the perfect place to bring back the loot spew mechanic Twisted

When a structure gets destroyed, all the cargo will be randomly selected at random stacks to be spewed into space. This will be the only time the aggressor can capture spewed containers just like the old mechanic. But instead of the spew containers just disappearing, they will warp of to a safe spot using the planetary rocket mechanic. So instead of just one rocket that has everything, there will be a dozen rockets with random cargo Pirate
Grorious Reader
Mongorian Horde
#291 - 2015-05-19 15:45:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Grorious Reader
Make item safety part of the exploration mechanic.

When a structure is destroyed, put the relevant objects in a container (per person, per corp, whatever) and scatter them throughout the system. For some amount of time (a few days maybe) the cans can't be destroyed and can't be opened except by their owner. After that timer is expired, the cans can be hacked by anyone using the data or relic analyzer module. If you can hack them, you get all the loot inside. If you fail the hack twice, the container explodes, leaves a wreck, and the loot fairy takes some of your loot as per the regular drop mechanics.

It should be a hard hack, similar to the tough cans in -1.0 space. The owner of the object should be given a bookmark for their can, but anyone should be able to scan it down. Maybe even spawn pirates around the can after the timer is expired.
Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#292 - 2015-05-19 23:01:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
It's pretty simple, I don't see why people want to suddenly add additional risk to simply logging out of the game to a feature since the dawn of the game has been considered universally "safe."

All POSes and small (Non L/XL) structure act as they currently do. If/When they die, so does your stuff.
All larger structures actually NEED, yes need, the security of knowing when you log off for a weekend, go on vacation, are hospitalized, etc. that when you return your assets will be intact just as they were prior to the patch.

I am a fan of player's assets being "saved" by the citadel's inhabitants and transported to their home station/nearest npc station. Appearing within 24/48 hours at their destination to force a type of denial to assets for a short period for losing the citadel. NO LOOT PINATA! Allowing such a mechanic into the game will only serve to punish and push out the small groups of players or those who are misfortune/busy in real life.


Moored super capitals and titans create a whole new set of problems. So basic stored assets we currently see residing in station aside, these cannot currently dock so are not owed the same protections. I personally like the idea of moored ships being enveloped by a cloaking device while moored to make active tracking of their location a requirement, not just a quick sweep of dscan which any clueless monkey can accomplish. Destruction of a citadel with moored supers or titans should be treated the same as being stored in a CSAA currently, which is the current form of leaving a super "safely" - yet horribly stupid.

Players will still log out in their supers and titans just as they currently do simply because it is the only "sure" way to protect these assets. Citadels and stations will also not be destroyed over night, so unmooring and jumping to a new location is still completely possible, and much easier than moving possibly hundreds of thousands of m3 in loose assets by comparison.


TL ; DR - Assets maintain same "safety" as current mechanics allow. Assets currently allowed to be docked/stored within stations will be transported withing 2 days of destruction of new L/XL citadels are transported to player's home station/npc station. All other size structures and assets are treated as current, and will drop what they contain and have a chance of destruction. Moored super's and titans treated the same as if they were left in a CSAA.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#293 - 2015-05-25 22:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
Grorious Reader wrote:
Make item safety part of the exploration mechanic.

When a structure is destroyed, put the relevant objects in a container (per person, per corp, whatever) and scatter them throughout the system. For some amount of time (a few days maybe) the cans can't be destroyed and can't be opened except by their owner. After that timer is expired, the cans can be hacked by anyone using the data or relic analyzer module. If you can hack them, you get all the loot inside. If you fail the hack twice, the container explodes, leaves a wreck, and the loot fairy takes some of your loot as per the regular drop mechanics.

It should be a hard hack, similar to the tough cans in -1.0 space. The owner of the object should be given a bookmark for their can, but anyone should be able to scan it down. Maybe even spawn pirates around the can after the timer is expired.

Instead of having a bunch of cargo containers being left around the wreck in space, why not have each one get swallowed up by a micro black hole/WH only big enough for everything within the hanger's contents, that you have to scan for to find (the owners of the cargo would already have the location to the WH in their journal) something accessible to everyone but much, much harder to find for anyone else (though not impossible). Access degrades like a WH.

Blame it on the Planck generators colliding or something...

Just shoot everything off into a different randomized location, systems, even regions away. (a corporate skill could hone/define the direction it gets shot into) with two or more access points also randomized...

Just little pockets of loot tucked away out in the void...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#294 - 2015-05-26 00:38:00 UTC
To be honest, i don't really care either way on this mechanic.

I mean, i think it's stupid that special space hobbit / leprechauns collect all your things and hide them in Mordor / some pot of gold at the end of a rainbow and you go around like Mario picking them up. If you've seen inside the SMA of most wormhole POSs you'll realise that's a lot of space hobbitting.

How long do your leprecans hang about secretly in space? A month? A week? Permanently? What happens if you don't collect them? Does he gear just disappear? if it does, why are you even putting this mechanic in the game?

I posit that your objective here, in introducing item safety, is to stop people's lives being ruined by station destruction in nullsec, where you know there's trillions of ISK kept in stations and trillions of cubic metres of suff. Whereas now it just gets stranded in a hostile station (until you get an alt in that alliance, contract it over, and smuggle it out / flog it off) in future when people douche canoe each other's outposts, it risks total destruction.

So, in comes lepcrecans to hide the loot. but if they don't expire, it's patently ridiculous. If they do, you may as well not have them, because there's always going to be that one guy who has to stop playing for 2 months when his sation gets waxed, then loses all his stuff because he can't scrabble around picking up his teeth.

And if they expire in space, and then magic teleport to the nearest friendly station, why not just this anyway? I mean, we're talking magic gnomes. Let the magic gnomes train a level 9 spell and be able to transport the stuff however far away, and save people the pain and stupidity of scuttling around like hoboes picking up their gear. It makes just as much lore sense as leprecans, will be easier on the server, the coding, the players, everything.

Secondly, the loot you get from structures is never enough to justify their destruction. So I can't give a toss if you get zero loot. It does, however, reduce the incentive to absolutely zero. Which is fine - now i won't have any reason at all to destroy a hostile POS in a wormhole, assuming i can even find it.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#295 - 2015-05-26 09:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
Cross-posted from the other thread:

I understand the need to not completely kill null sec industry - or make it something that is only possible for the strongest coalitions in the most secure space. Something needs to be done about that - but empire building should never be completely safe. I would hate to see all industry continue to remain in high or low sec, but if most of the materials were readily available in 0.0, you could find ways to encourage folks to continue building stuff in 0.0.

The issues really come into play with Capital and Supercapital production. In Eve thus far, those have been essentials for having and holding space. It would be awful to have new groups unable to compete because they cannot ever build a Capital or Supercapital fleet. It would be even more awful to have those ships produced exclusively in the relative security of low sec or NPC null sec.

I hate the idea that a player, such as myself, who is currently deployed and far from being able to play the game, could lose all of his possessions.

With that said, I also hate the suggestions I have seen thus far. I don't need space fairies pixie dusting my stuff off to safety for me. Just put a couple of NPC stations in each region. If I know I will be away from game for weeks, I move my stuff to the relative safety of an NPC station. I run the risk of moving it. I take the time. Not some space magic. Anything I leave behind is fair game for someone else who beats the stuffing out of my friends while I am gone.

I've been playing for over eight years. I have a ton of stuff. Moving, especially post-Phoebe, is a huge pain in the ass. But that is the price I pay for going off to serve my country in the Middle East. I'll come back to a trail of tears. It will probably take me months to move my stuff. Some of it may die. This is Eve. Doing things in 0.0 is not supposed to be easy. Ships are made to die. As long as I have a choice in whether it dies or not, that is all I care about.

Edit - 1000 likes, yay!

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Goochan derp
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2015-05-26 11:39:55 UTC
CCP Nullarbor wrote:
Elenahina wrote:
Another (potential) issue.

What about people who have unsubbed? If stuff ends up in containers scattered around, you could be adding lots of objects to the servers over time that may never (?) go away.


Someone suggested an interesting solution for this at Fanfest, just pause their journal entry expiry times while inactive and have them resume when they rejoin.


ive read much of this thread and havent seen anyone bring this up yet. i have 2 accounts and pay once per year for them. what if somethiing happpens to me where i cant access my account for months, like i get injured or something. sure, my eve account isnt going to be something im worried about at the time but once im recovered id really like to have a chance to get my things back. i know its a fringe case but its something i just wanna make sure was/will be considered. just because an account is active dosent nessecarily mean its being used.

that said im in full support of the direction this game is going. ive been a member of provibloc for going on 3 years now and i dont know how ive lasted so long in null, its so boring and i honestly feel more safe there than i do in high sec belive it or not.

i hope this brings back some of the thrill i felt when i first moved out to null.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#297 - 2015-05-26 22:47:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Enya Sparhawk
FT Diomedes wrote:

I hate the idea that a player, such as myself, who is currently deployed and far from being able to play the game, could lose all of his possessions.

With that said, I also hate the suggestions I have seen thus far. I don't need space fairies pixie dusting my stuff off to safety for me. Just put a couple of NPC stations in each region. If I know I will be away from game for weeks, I move my stuff to the relative safety of an NPC station. I run the risk of moving it. I take the time. Not some space magic. Anything I leave behind is fair game for someone else who beats the stuffing out of my friends while I am gone.

You should know better than anyone...

In War, there is no neutral ground... anywhere.


Why should 0.0 be any different?

I know for a fact that there is a lot of loot to be had from players in Australia, New Zealand, Canada, United States and the Isle of Great Britain.

I plan of doing my share of the reaping...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#298 - 2015-05-27 03:37:38 UTC
Mucks Boosh wrote:
I appear to be able to see only one option. It goes a little like: Give us the bloody loot, this is EVE, not Hello Kitty Online, if your **** gets blown up and stolen, deal with it. "Safety" Mechanics are completely illogical. Why not do the same for destroyed ships. I'm sure it'll be the same demographic as this. If I have something stored in a POS and it gets blown up, boo-hoo. My fault for leaving my assets in a vulnerable location. And the aggressors get to enjoy a nice load of loot.

TL,DR; "Safety" Mechanics are bad. Risk vs Reward. CCPlis, gieff loot.



Totally agree.
In w-space you keep ALL your stuff in a POS. That includes dreads and several T3s. Guess what happens when someone blows it up. Everything goes puff and you are space poor once more.
No "oh! my assets are safe from the bad guys so I can sleep in peace at night".
No insurance.
No nothing.

WTF?

This is EVE.

HTFU.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#299 - 2015-05-27 14:24:41 UTC
The smack-down simple answer is this: If station destruction results in a players loss of stored assets, there will be LESS content in eve.

1. Player loses all his PVP ships/supplies=less content
2. Player learns not to store PVP ships/supplies in a destructible station=less content

If you think most of null is empty now...just wait.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#300 - 2015-05-27 20:29:39 UTC
Midnight Hope wrote:
Mucks Boosh wrote:
I appear to be able to see only one option. It goes a little like: Give us the bloody loot, this is EVE, not Hello Kitty Online, if your **** gets blown up and stolen, deal with it. "Safety" Mechanics are completely illogical. Why not do the same for destroyed ships. I'm sure it'll be the same demographic as this. If I have something stored in a POS and it gets blown up, boo-hoo. My fault for leaving my assets in a vulnerable location. And the aggressors get to enjoy a nice load of loot.

TL,DR; "Safety" Mechanics are bad. Risk vs Reward. CCPlis, gieff loot.



Totally agree.
In w-space you keep ALL your stuff in a POS. That includes dreads and several T3s. Guess what happens when someone blows it up. Everything goes puff and you are space poor once more.
No "oh! my assets are safe from the bad guys so I can sleep in peace at night".
No insurance.
No nothing.

WTF?

This is EVE.

HTFU.


The fact that you decided to live in space with no protection to your assets in any way does not mean it should be the same for other part of the game. Null always featured some form of protection. Scrapping the current systems because WH space has it harder would have massive consequence on how the game is played.