Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Triage as support for subcaps is NOT a problem, so i seen no reason to nerf it in any way.
Non triage is only usefull to rep caps and at best battleships (still long long time), nerfing RR abilities while not in triage is an effective way to nerf carrier fleets since it takes away a large portion of their repping ability.

I do not see a way to make non triage carriers good for subcap support without also making them to strong in carrier fleets. Boosting ships are already limited to 3 (fleet-wing-squad) so you need better boosts than commandships or T3 for anyone to even think about taking a carrier instead of a way cheaper ship for that role, anything that need to remake aspects of the game to work are very unlikely to happen anytime soon.

From these we can derive the basic shape of what capitals need to look like, mainly by cutting away the things that violate one of the laws until we have a rough shape of what the final look needs to resemble.

Law #1 means that the current model is out. Current abilities require bringing large numbers of carriers to a single location to be viable, so the bonuses must change. And yet they must be changed in such a way as the carrier is actually useful afterwords, which removes the proposals that "Solve" the issue by killing off the ability to repair each other without introducing new capabilities. None of those proposals leave the carrier in a usable spot in Fozziesov.

Law #2 means that a capital can repair but not DPS, OR DPS but not repair, OR gain a mix of abilities not including remote repair and DPS at the same time.

We already have Triage in the "Repair but no DPS category" and Dreadnaughts in the "DPS but not repair" category, which means that the result should be in the third category.

We cannot remove or heavily nerf the remote repair, then give them enough standalone DPS and application to make them useful on an even moderately battlefield without creating a ship that will be oppressively powerful against small groups. This basically means we have to remove carriers from the DPS role altogether.

Law #3 Basically means we can't turn it into a booster, or a troop transport, or a deplorable layer, or a portal generator, or any of the other situations where the FC would never call for more than one of them. Carriers need a direct combat role since they have little use in non combat support positions since Phoebe.

So from above, we have narrowed down what it should ideally look like in order for carriers to be useful.

A: Carriers should not be main damage dealers due to scaling issues.
B: Carriers should be on grid support for other ships due to people actually wanting to fly them.
C: The ships the carriers are supporting should not be other capitals, due to overpowered turbo-synergy.

What role can fill all of these requirements?

Direct subcap support. A ship that directly benefits nearby subcaps, or helps to neutralize nearby enemy subcaps, without dealing damage themselves. A ship that provides (targeted) buffs directly to allies, or (targeted) debuffs directly to enemies. Practically useless without subcap dps to back it up.

I envisioned this as a ship that would retain a significant chunk of it's remote repair capabilities and tank, along with long range, less powerful versions of webs, points, and other Ewar, along with high strength bonuses to remote ECCM, Sensor Boosters, Remote Tracking Computers, and any other beneficial remote buffs.

First off, I like the base concept of MODES, although I think the example given is off a bit. In my opinion, it should be either/or, not yes and others done badly.

My thoughts on how to solve the n+1 supercap blob problem (that's what we're really talking about here, right?) are twofold.

The first looks at how fleets are organized. This is my least favorite of the ideas because it is the most restrictive. The creator of a fleet chooses a template that he created using a ruleset based on hull size (x frigates before you can add cruisers, etc. All the way up to supercaps) that people can slot their ships into based on the roles given in ISIS.

The second thought is not mutually exclusive to the first. It is to take supercaps and make them force multipliers.

Carriers
Everyone and their dog brings drones to a fight. It's a no-brainer. but when you have a 100 person fight (50 per side), you're talking an additional 500 entities in space as it is. Having carriers that can field 15 drones (raising the number to a potential 1,500 extra entities) is...the word "insane" comes to mind - at least in terms of server load. No wonder serious fights drop things into TiDi so fast.
I'd actually advocate for all ships that can field drones to only be able to field a single drone, provided it had bonuses to make it just as potent as fielding multiple drones, but that's another discussion entirely. Carriers are mostly ok where they are now (although I like the idea of the modes) with the exception of the massive amounts of server load from the extra drones. I'd replace the +1 drone or fighter per level with a +100% drone and fighter effectiveness per level.
I see the possible modes that the carrier could potentially use being Defense, Support, and Mobility. Defense would in effect replace the Triage module with a mode. Support would allow for non booster based on-grid passive defensive boosts based on racial doctrines with stacking penalties from multiple carriers. Mobility would be for moving things around (like a space whale of a carrier). Each mode would be mutually exclusive, in that the base numbers (without a mode bonus) would have to be sufficiently low to make performing that action in the wrong mode effectively useless.

Supercarriers
Where carriers are the shield, supercarriers are the sword. This is where the superblobs get crazy. The best defense is a good offence, right? Migrating away from the thought of a swarm with a tough hide (as fun as that is), but still keeping with the concept of a carrier, the power of a supercarrier should be as an offensive force multiplier for drones.

Dreadnoughts
Dreads are simple - big guns for taking down big targets. While that is true, we're entering into Entosis territory. I foresee the links being used to capture not just the Sov structures, but the new stations (could be wrong here though). So other than shoot at capitals, what is there for a dread to do? The answer is nothing - but with many of the Ideas I'm throwing out here, the number of caps on field will be drastically less (and that's a good thing), so dreads need some love too. The usefulness of a dread as a direct combat force multiplier and looking at the weapon modules available for them (full meta variations 1-14) should help. If we're looking at modes, I'd work the Siege module into a mode here like the triage and the carriers, and have Support (direct combat augmentation) and Mobility modes too.

Titans
Big mama. These are BIG things that project power across entire solar systems. With that in mind, there are a few tweaks I'd make: Having one in system should increase the effective military index change, and/or reduce the decay; The solar system view for those in the same fleet shows all uncloaked ships in the system; It's not killable through traditional means, and requires an entosis link to first disable, then destroy; The doomsday weapon needs to be more powerful such that not even the toughest tanked capital can survive; A single weapon module fires at all locked targets; and just having this behemoth on grid gives passive boosts equal to an unscripted Remote Sensor Booster and Remote Tracking Computer for all ships in the fleet.

To clarify, with the exception of the titan's solar system view bonus, it was my intention that all boosts be on-grid, exposing the cap to fire.

I also forgot to mention that I'd remove the capsule from caps too.

I'd like to see a bridge view option for these megalithic ships, but I'm not holding my breath - on any of these ideas.

Carriers have 2x effective drones compared to Ishtars and alot stonger tank, split that ishtar fleet over 5-10 locations and you start to see where half the numbers with 10x EHP (pulling this number from nowhere) may be wanted. The jump changes also helps make this viable since its harder to counter with capitals.

A carrier IS usefull without requiring many other carriers to support it, triage for RR or small numbers of drone carriers (1k dps + capital RR or 1500 dps)
Since a carrier can do good dps AND beat any logistic ship for RR abilities at the same time its only question about numbers, get enough to break the tank of your enemy and you will win since no subcap fleet with less than 2x the numbers will break a carrier fleet.

Carriers do more dps and tank better than the current FOTM (Ishtar), have more sustainable dmg due to ALOT larger drone bay and can easily be seeded for offencive or defencive use. Carrier hav enever been used to grind structures (by any sane person) but the sov changes may make them key ships for holding the grid around the new structures.

Carriers only have double the effective drones of an Ishtar if they have carrier V, Advanced Drone Interfacing V, and 5 Drone Control Units. If they do this they have a drone control range of max 55 KM. And their drones have far less optimal and tracking, which must be brought up to base Ishtar levels by using two Omnidirectional Tracking Links.

As to the 1500 dps number, that requires a full rack of Drone Control units, at least 5 Drone Damage Amplifiers, and only using very short range Garde II's.

Given a far more likely fit of Two Drone Link Aug, One Capital Energy Transfer and Two Capital Armor Repairer in the highs, you are actually looking at 825 DPS, with three Drone Damage Amplifiers and perfect skills. That's only about 20% more than a Dominix, and with shorter range and less tracking.

Congratulations, you have traded mobility, cost effectiveness, range, and tracking, for the ability to sit in a single place and defend it. Yay you.

And no, the jump changes make it less useful to split up your carriers, not more. Without jump fatigue, all of your carriers can easily jump to a single location to backup a location being threatened. With it very much restricts your ability to respond.

Leaving small groups of carriers scattered around just decreases the number of people you can have in mobile subcaps and thus your ability to prevent the enemy from rolling around in their superior subcap force, and allows them to dictate when and where they drop their dreads on your small groups of isolated carriers.

Yes the question is about numbers. Get 50 carriers in one spot, you can defend any single capture point from anything less than a full fleet of subs or a bunch of suicide dreads.

Get 50 carriers in one spot and someones just going to bubble them and go off and capture all your other capture points while your force sit in the bubbles. Grats. Superior immobile forces in phoebe are going to be highly ineffective.

Oh and on the carriers never ground anything part? A three drone damage amp carrier does around 1650 DPS. Groups with large numbers of capitals would rapidly jump place to place grinding structures with carriers. If you never flew with anyone that could helicopter **** around in a fleet of 150 carriers with as much damage as 20 dreadnaughts, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Mix in a few supercarriers and it goes even faster.

Slowcat carriers are the ones that are useful against other other ships. They use Sentries for their DPS due to the huge number of problems with using fighters against subcaps. 825 DPS is the figure for a Lv V carrier with 10 sentries and a standard slowcat set of highslots + 3 Drone Damage Amps.

For grinding structures unopposed though the fighters can be used, since the structures can't just warp off, or kill them, or kite them, or sig tank them, or smartbomb them. 1650 DPS is the figure for a Lv V carrier with 3 Drone Damage Amps.

Carriers having good DPS and RR at the same time is A problem.

It is not however anything resembling the ENTIRE problem. Nerfing their RR abilities without changing anything else just makes them useless, and that is a much larger issue than them being a bit too powerful in static defense situations where you have many carriers.

Especially when the 150 Archon hold one location Alamo style carrier fleets are ineffective in Fozziesov.

If you want to nerf the RR in exchange for adding a less problematic bonus, that's not a problem. If you want to remove the RR and then stick your head in the sand and believe people are magically going to start using them in small groups for DPS support (Despite it never happening even before the nerf), that's a problem.

I agree that there should be organic ways to limit their numbers, no one would disagree with that, I think. Still I disagree with the perceived notion that everyone out there who managed to get one therefore deserve to always pilot one forever and ever.
The fact that people managed to make common what was intended to be something rare and awe-inspiring, and thus decisively powerful, doesn't change the fact that those are intended to be rare and awe-inspiring.

The healthiest position for Capital Ships would be without a doubt to have them in low numbers, either in system or in production. But as you say, many people like you want to be able to pilot those and be useful with them.

Maybe what is needed is a transition phase.

I guess there is a need to make it so that people like you who have invested all that time into them get to pilot them in a combat role BUT at the same time, as you also said, they have to be lost.
A phase where repairing those ships would be impossible, BUT at the same time they would still provide some clear OPness to make it so that, for a time, every groups that has them right now will need to bring them out to seize the advantage they provide. And with FozzieSov coming, that advantage that can only reside in logistic or damage (since it definitely won't come from mobility) should be buffed to the point where you and other Cap pilots can offset the price in mobility.

It might seems contradictory, but probably what they need right now is a massive buff to Damage and Logi. BUT accompanied with a drastic reduction to their ability to be repaired.
This would give a solid incentive to bringing them out despite their lack of mobility, and it would usher a phase where they would be out there, dying but also providing an important role to those of you who want to pilot them.

As their numbers dwindle then they can be moved slowly to the better role of them being proper flagships and with only the most deserving organically receiving the honor/merit of piloting the ones remaining.

As they will be less of them, and the limited auction idea would definitely make sure their number are kept in check, their power can still be justified to be as above subcap ships, keeping their role as the aspiration of any pilot out there, old and new. Then the people having them can slowly get back some capabilities to repair and maintain them.


Or maybe something else that could happen is them being able to be fielded en-masse BUT with having a direct counter (gods know what that counter could be... mass of frigates?...) and in a way being like any type of ships out there. But that would deprive them of a lot of the prestige and supposed 'end-game' they are supposed to represent...


TL;DR: Maybe Capital Ships need to be buffed to OP status to have a relevance in FozzieSov despite their lack of mobility, but that accompanied with a massive nerf to the capability of repairing them so that they would eventually die and thus have their number reduced. Thus they could retain their prestige and power.

Just a small point, but Titans were introduced to clear the grid of subcaps. Dreads maybe were for structures...but the original carriers were meant to engage subcaps. CCP wanted motherships to be a mobile staging point. Surprisingly only Dreads haven't changed much over the years. Just a few points of history there.

After following this post for awhile, it is very clear that CCP has gone down the rabbit's hole too far with "caps"...there really is no good solution to their role (all 4 of them) if Fozziesov gets implemented.

Fix capital remote AID without triage -> fix 90% of issues we have currently with the capitals.
Dreads, i think they need some buff , but i don't know where.

Why?
Because there are to many supers that out-match them.

Maybe give them bonus to damage against other capitals and supers?
50% increased damage against other capital ships?

This will not affect player structures, not affect PVE WH aspects it will not affect capital vs subcapital PVP, but make this game even more bloody and could bring some balance to number of supers in game.