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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Let's talk about Capitals and Supercapitals

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Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#521 - 2015-07-17 09:19:13 UTC
Manny:


Should the capitals you mentioned be able to be used in a PVE environment and be updated for that at a minimum level ?


Regards, a Freelancer

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#522 - 2015-07-18 04:02:26 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
Manny:


Should the capitals you mentioned be able to be used in a PVE environment and be updated for that at a minimum level ?


Regards, a Freelancer

Not sure who or even what post you are replying to but aside from WH's there is very little PVE that requires capitals. People rat with carriers in K space, because it is easy, lazy isk, they are not "needed" to complete objectives. Capitals in WH space could receive bonuses applicable to what they are used for. With DPS soon to be removed from everything to do with structures, worm space capitals will have different roles to the rest of TQ. NB; Battle Config (see below) carriers could find a role in worm space for escalations and defending space against invaders.

Capitals should have very specific roles, in a "fleet". They should also have drawbacks, so the more you bring, the less effective they become.
While ok for a few, large capital fights just can't be done. The servers can't handle them, many players don't enjoy them (who "likes" to sit in tidi for 20 hours), so lets find a better way to use them.

Small groups of capitals (even 100 or 200 a side) fighting it out as subcap support brings a lot more to the game than, "we're not using supers because XYZ alliance has their super fleet in range".

Dreads should be "Titan, Super killers" but vulnerable to subcaps - No "Siege Mode" for Dreads but good bonuses to shooting capitals. Titans and Supers should get their primary protection from the fleet they are in via something like Battle Config. With something like this, it doesn't matter who has the biggest super fleet as they are all but useless without their sucap support.

Triage for carriers should have drawbacks. So a dedicated triage carrier can rep others with high bonuses but local reps aren't bonused by anything other than overheating.
History & CCP have shown; We can't have our cake (Doomsday Titans & all but invincible Supers) and eat it too (range nerfs, fatigue, tidi, etc), so lets find a better way.

EG; I'll use Fubar and some well known alliances here. (for this example - supers = super carriers + titans)
Fubar decide they want to attack Branch and take some Imperium sov but don't have Supers to deploy. We do have many subcap pilots willing to join the fray, so only need some battle ready supers to get things rolling.
We contract a number of PL supers to work for us, they provide the needed supers and can also bring extras with their own subcap, dread and specialized logistics carriers to supplement fleets or they can just get paid to supply what the smaller alliance can't field.

-- - -- - -- - -- - --
Yes blobs of dreads and carriers could make this unworkable but if Fatigue is moved to the ship instead of the character it changes how those capitals are used. Fatigue on ship instead of player could include drawbacks to jumping.
EG;
You can jump a dread 4 times then fatigue starts to impact the ship - 5th jump incurs 10% reduction in DPS, 6th jump your resists are reduced by 10%, 7th jump further reduces 1 or both affected attributes and so on. This happens because the faster you move through space (distance travelled) the more wear and tear it applies to your ship.
We could once again increase jump ranges (slightly, say 7.5 LY) so it doesn't take a month to move a capital fleet but by moving them great distances you reduce their effectiveness.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#523 - 2015-07-18 09:37:37 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Modes

Modes would be a new mechanic for all capital and supercapital ships. Mode bonuses will vary based on Ship Class and Race. The overarching strategy would be to make capitals very flexible and able to perform in a multitude of roles but not all roles at once. Each mode will have bonuses and penalties. Furthermore swapping modes will take a longer time on capitals and even longer on supercapitals. Mode skills are a possibility with supplementary skills to affect mode change time.

Sniped so I can ackshully make a cogent point


Getting back to the OP because all this hurf blurf is besides the point of what Manny was actually proposing, ie; modes as opposed to spawning a discussion about how do use capital fozziesov??.

I like the idea of turning a carrier into a giant Svipul or whatever, via modes. The concept of flexibility with the carrier is good. However, I have some concerns about the way the above system would work.

For instance, a 2.5 minute minimum mode shift (and maximum 4.5 minutes at level 1 Archon) is useless for travel-fit Archons. Going gate to gate you are stuck in Mobility mode for 2.5 minutes. If you use Mobility mode you may land and bestuck in it for long enough for it to kill you. Maybe that's the idea, but if that's so, you'll never use Mobility mode. I mean, it's a capital. it's not like gaining 50% speed and going 1.5km/s nanoniddy or something crazy.

Offensive Mode
So you say you invented Slowcats, and it devolved to using the Archon solely because of the synergy with RR and resistances, and links and implants, and fleet bonuses and fleet links and triage support. But otherwise, it would be Thanny fleets if a 5% (now 4%) resist bonus didn't help Slowcats more than the extra 50% gank that Thanny fleets bring to the table. I mean, the Thanny used to be popular till links and slaves and warfare links proliferated and OGB tengus. Besides the fact that the Archon has capacitor, and cap is life full stop.

So you give the Archon offensive mode 50% DPS bonus, turning it into a Thanny. Great. What's the Thanny's schtick? Being even more sucky? I know this is just spitballing, but if all carriers get Offensive Mode 50% DPS, how do they get differentiated?

Non-penalties are rife here.
50% EWAR module nerf. Who uses a disruptor in a Slowcat blob?
50% agility nerf. Slowcats....move? What? Since when?
50% warp speed nerf. Again, not a penalty. You go from 1 AU/s to 0.5. But you jumped in on a cyno anyway. What's the downside, that someone sees you warp to a planet and anchors a bubble before you land?
25% nerf to RR. Yadda yadda, who cares, slowcats.

The only great penalty you suggest is a 25% nerf to shield hitpoints (you don't care about them), hull hitpoints (only a concern if you can't refit on the fly to have a DCU) and armour hitpoints. So you bring more links, implants and add a few more triage archons to rep. It's not really a problem for slows, removing 75K armour buffer, is it?

So, how about a 5% resistance penalty. That would really screw with defense because as we know, RR works on the target's resistances to be efficient, not on buffer.


Defensive Mode
Defensive Mode would go with Triage anyway. So the penalty to drone DPS and so on isn't a penalty, because as soon as you hit Triage, you lose your drones and DPS.

Again, non-penalties about. DPS, lock range, sensor strength (probably the biggest, but again, triage fixes that!), etc etc. No penalties to something that's going to slip into Triage. Do better, Manny. Do better.

Mobility Mode
This is basically a way of undoing Phoebe's space-AIDS for jumping. What a penalty your lower resists, DPS, etc is, if you go into Mobility Mode 2 minutes and 10 seconds before you jump, so that as you cyno onto grid you can change right back to Offensive or Defensive mode to slowcat blob the poor schmucks you have hotdropped. Oh, such a penalty, Manny, to have got better force projection and even less space-AIDS than intended!

What good is 50% extra speed? 150m/s isn't saving you.

Electronic Mode

Now you must be trolling. 5% bonus to link effectiveness? Warp your link Archon off-grid, load the mids up with ECCM's to synergise with the 50% sensor strength and you can get your Archon to well over 1200 sensor strength (HG Grail). Nearly unprobeable offgrid link Archon? Sounds great!

TD strength, lol.

50% neut and Nos range and effectiveness? Hell, for the "cost" of some DPS, some EHP and some local tank for 2.5 minutes you can become a Slowghorn fleet. We're still talking 600 DPS, 600K EHP, 1200 DPS active tanked Archons with 45km uber neuts and Nos.

The concept is fine, Manny, but the ideas presented here are atrocious.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#524 - 2015-07-19 12:32:03 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
Thank you for continuing to post these Manny, if for no other reason than to keep it on the "front burner". I'd hate to see caps and supers languish for two years again the way that moms did post-trinity.

I think that modes are a fine idea, but I don't see how it makes my Titan more relevant in a post Aegis-sov world. I've been thinking about this, and, given that Aegis-sov appears to be a "cat and mouse" game of simultaneous grid control, which I think is cool in theory, and have advocated for for years, but it does leave our big ships "out in the cold".

I think that supers, in particular, could be relevant again in this "cat and mouse" game by improving the effective mobility of an attacker, and perhaps by acting as a "force multiplier" to help overcome the defensive bonuses of a defender in a highly bonused system. I'd propose these changes:


  1. Eliminate "jump fatigue" when jumping within the same constellation.
  2. Eliminate "jump fatigue" for taking a Titan bridge,with no ability for a cap or super to take a bridge.
  3. Make the SMA of supers much larger (could hold 50 cruiser sized ships or so), and give them their clone-vat back.
  4. Give Titans a link that bonuses Entosis modules, reducing the time required substantially.


The above would provide some real benefits for both attackers and defenders bringing supers to an entosis fight, and putting them at risk. They would allow the attacker to have greater tactical agility, and be of particular usefulness when attacking a highly bonused or "capital" system. They would likewise allow a defender to have greater tactical agility when facing a larger sub-cap force.
Rawketsled
Generic Corp Name
#525 - 2015-07-19 13:37:01 UTC
davet517 wrote:
Thank you for continuing to post these Manny, if for no other reason than to keep it on the "front burner". I'd hate to see caps and supers languish for two years again the way that moms did post-trinity.

I think that modes are a fine idea, but I don't see how it makes my Titan more relevant in a post Aegis-sov world. I've been thinking about this, and, given that Aegis-sov appears to be a "cat and mouse" game of simultaneous grid control, which I think is cool in theory, and have advocated for for years, but it does leave our big ships "out in the cold".

I think that supers, in particular, could be relevant again in this "cat and mouse" game by improving the effective mobility of an attacker, and perhaps by acting as a "force multiplier" to help overcome the defensive bonuses of a defender in a highly bonused system. I'd propose these changes:


  1. Eliminate "jump fatigue" when jumping within the same constellation.
  2. Eliminate "jump fatigue" for taking a Titan bridge,with no ability for a cap or super to take a bridge.
  3. Make the SMA of supers much larger (could hold 50 cruiser sized ships or so), and give them their clone-vat back.
  4. Give Titans a link that bonuses Entosis modules, reducing the time required substantially.


The above would provide some real benefits for both attackers and defenders bringing supers to an entosis fight, and putting them at risk. They would allow the attacker to have greater tactical agility, and be of particular usefulness when attacking a highly bonused or "capital" system. They would likewise allow a defender to have greater tactical agility when facing a larger sub-cap force.

Way too much tactical agility for everyone.

Cyno within the constellation to the regional gate that points in the right direction.

Gate jump.

Cyno within the constellation to the regional gate that points in the right direction.


There we have it! Most of Phoebe undone with the one change.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#526 - 2015-07-19 14:03:36 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
Rawketsled wrote:

Way too much tactical agility for everyone.

Cyno within the constellation to the regional gate that points in the right direction.

Gate jump.

Cyno within the constellation to the regional gate that points in the right direction.


There we have it! Most of Phoebe undone with the one change.
.

It's not really all that different from what we have now, which is jump, take a few gates while you cool down, jump. Increase the fatigue incurred for jumping a constellation gate, instead of going through. It would at least make constellation gates a choke point that could be used to slow power projection, while giving capitals a bigger, better role within a constellation for Aegis-sov warfare.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#527 - 2015-07-19 15:46:20 UTC  |  Edited by: FT Diomedes
davet517 wrote:

  • Give Titans a link that bonuses Entosis modules, reducing the time required substantially.


  • Just plain no to your bald-faced attempts to get rid of Jump Fatigue.

    Edit - reading comprehension fail. Obnoxious comment removed.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    davet517
    Raata Invicti
    #528 - 2015-07-19 16:25:19 UTC
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    Additionally, let me add a resounding "No!" to your suggestion to allow ships which are immune to electronic warfare to have a bonus to Entosis time.


    You might want to give a big resounding "NO" to something that I actually proposed. I didn't propose that they have a bonus. I proposed that they give a bonus to other ships.
    Tykonderoga
    Ministry of War
    Amarr Empire
    #529 - 2015-07-20 12:34:06 UTC
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    davet517 wrote:

  • Give Titans a link that bonuses Entosis modules, reducing the time required substantially.


  • Just plain no to your bald-faced attempts to get rid of Jump Fatigue.

    Additionally, let me add a resounding "No!" to your suggestion to allow ships which are immune to electronic warfare to have a bonus to Entosis time.



    Yes, because God forbid your ratting is interrupted.
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #530 - 2015-07-20 13:00:33 UTC
    davet517 wrote:
    FT Diomedes wrote:
    Additionally, let me add a resounding "No!" to your suggestion to allow ships which are immune to electronic warfare to have a bonus to Entosis time.


    You might want to give a big resounding "NO" to something that I actually proposed. I didn't propose that they have a bonus. I proposed that they give a bonus to other ships.


    Sorry, man. I misread your post. Thank you for pointing that out to me.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    davet517
    Raata Invicti
    #531 - 2015-07-20 16:53:20 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
    FT Diomedes wrote:


    Sorry, man. I misread your post. Thank you for pointing that out to me.


    No worries. Easy to get the wrong idea.

    So, the major complaints about fozziesov that I'm hearing is that it takes too long. Trying to take a system with big bonuses will be even more discouraging. If you've got the huevos to park a big shiney titan on grid, let it run a module that works like a command link to cut down the time. If the defender brings a titan of their own, it counters it.

    This way, the Titan has a role to play (if you're willing to risk it) but it doesn't just rock up on the grid and own.
    Sgt Ocker
    What Corp is it
    #532 - 2015-07-20 17:41:17 UTC
    davet517 wrote:
    FT Diomedes wrote:


    Sorry, man. I misread your post. Thank you for pointing that out to me.


    No worries. Easy to get the wrong idea.

    So, the major complaints about fozziesov that I'm hearing is that it takes too long. Trying to take a system with big bonuses will be even more discouraging. If you've got the huevos to park a big shiney titan on grid, let it run a module that works like a command link to cut down the time. If the defender brings a titan of their own, it counters it.

    This way, the Titan has a role to play (if you're willing to risk it) but it doesn't just rock up on the grid and own.

    Actually the defender bringing a celestis or blackbird would be a far better option. Why risk a titan to a potential blob when you can just jam out the one trying to capture.
    Unless you bring a blob of supers to defend your entosis linked titan, it is no better or worse than a T1 frigate. Bring your blob, you don't need reduced time on the entosis link, unless the idea is to have your cake and eat it too. (We want to use our titans but don't want to risk them by having to stay somewhere for 10 mins).

    Reducing entosis link time so you can use titans for highly defended systems with high indexes - Cycle time is 10 mins, it is going to take you 3 X that (at least) to capture a structure.
    Of course, having a bonus for titans to entosis links would allow them to capture systems of those who don't own supers or a lot of capitals more quickly and safely, that has to be a plus for those wanting to use titans to capture sov (or just grief it with no intention of holding it).

    All capital ships but especially titans need alternate roles, buffing them to fit the current sov system by giving them an OP module bonus isn't the answer.

    NB; Not sure where your getting "it takes too long" from, I cloaked up a few days back and followed a Sabre and Condor as they RF'd 3 systems in less than 25 mins.

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

    davet517
    Raata Invicti
    #533 - 2015-07-20 17:51:24 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
    Sgt Ocker wrote:


    NB; Not sure where your getting "it takes too long" from, I cloaked up a few days back and followed a Sabre and Condor as they RF'd 3 systems in less than 25 mins.


    Not hearing that about RFing things. Hearing it about the capture event. People are reporting 4 hours-ish if it's contested. Granted, some of that may just be newbitis, but still.
    FT Diomedes
    The Graduates
    #534 - 2015-07-21 04:15:10 UTC
    davet517 wrote:
    FT Diomedes wrote:


    Sorry, man. I misread your post. Thank you for pointing that out to me.


    No worries. Easy to get the wrong idea.

    So, the major complaints about fozziesov that I'm hearing is that it takes too long. Trying to take a system with big bonuses will be even more discouraging. If you've got the huevos to park a big shiney titan on grid, let it run a module that works like a command link to cut down the time. If the defender brings a titan of their own, it counters it.

    This way, the Titan has a role to play (if you're willing to risk it) but it doesn't just rock up on the grid and own.


    Having read your proposal again, I suggest that if we added this module, it cannot be activated on another Supercapital or Capital ship.

    CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

    Sgt Ocker
    What Corp is it
    #535 - 2015-07-21 12:43:56 UTC
    davet517 wrote:
    Sgt Ocker wrote:


    NB; Not sure where your getting "it takes too long" from, I cloaked up a few days back and followed a Sabre and Condor as they RF'd 3 systems in less than 25 mins.


    Not hearing that about RFing things. Hearing it about the capture event. People are reporting 4 hours-ish if it's contested. Granted, some of that may just be newbitis, but still.

    Sorry, misunderstood..
    Yes whack a mole is tedious, boring and can take way too long if defenders decide to turn up, which of course is the idea..

    Fozzie says he wants smaller localized fighting then introduces a mechanic that requires blob fleets to complete it in a reasonable time.
    Hopefully it will be balanced, soon. Not much point having vulnerability times if an objective can't reasonably be completed in the time and having the sort of long drawn out contests that are happening in some areas now, is actually worse than shooting a TCU with a small fleet of bombers.

    My opinions are mine.

      If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

    It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

    MrQuisno
    Doomheim
    #536 - 2015-09-04 23:46:55 UTC
    Hello,

    Let's ask about how capital ships are fun, aren't and could be. I'm looking to get list of few questions we can ask CCP what their current status on capital ships changes. Many players have advise CCP on changes they would like to see happen to capital ships.


    Here are my questions and will point them to both CSM then CCP.


    Will we see more capital ships types? and will they mainly be faction types from NPC empires!?

    Have you decided on role changes for dreads, carriers, supers and titans?

    Will we see more projection type weapons like doomsday or remote ecm?

    Will we be able to dock them in player own stations in near future?


    Can you give us idea when their will be information released about capital ship changes?