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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1661 - 2015-03-17 10:21:44 UTC
I think several entosis link sizes Woudl indeed do the trick.

Make the small ones... be SLOWish ( so you can affects things with a few frigates, but you will get bored as well and think about bringing somethign more serious)

make medium ones be average (cruisers) ( very used ship size needs no extra help to be used, but they are easier to accept as an attack force)

make large ones be the fastest (battleships) (these ones are basically used only as cannon fooder, so this would be a nice role for battleships (and OMG would be a buff to the tempest with the spare high slot!!!!)

make the huge ones be very slow (capitals). (need to be slow for obvious reasons)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1662 - 2015-03-17 10:26:07 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
You're right. Lowsec pilots are fundamentally different than the average nullbear.


If by different, you mean having better income and no responsibilities to defend space, then yes, different is a good word.

It's altogether loopy that people have FW alts to make themselves cash when their mains are in null. I don't get the hate - FW gives lowsec people a good, consistent income stream to support continued ship loss. Shouldn't nullsec also offer competitive bottom up income to sustain losses? It should strike any thinking person as odd that people would rather have an alt in FW to make money to sustain nullsec ship losses than actually use the space where they live.

Remote income sourcing is the bane of content in this game.




Income should indeed be moved towards bottom up , like it used to be in 2006-2007 age. But this must be carefully done to not unbalance economy too much since it is a potentially HUGE isk faucet or isk sink depending on how it's done.

Personally I think that economy could be paired to high sec missioning. How? High sec are the largest LP producers, Null sec could on other hand drop a LOT of the tags that LP stores ask for (and keep also an isk faucet).

Officer spawns could be increased... and of course the obvious possibilities that drifters bring into the table.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1663 - 2015-03-17 10:30:39 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Remember that no matter how unfun things become for the players, daddy will make us do it.

And we will, because we love our family very very much. More than we actually love the game itself.



That is your problem... not ccp's

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1664 - 2015-03-17 15:35:40 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
You're right. Lowsec pilots are fundamentally different than the average nullbear.


If by different, you mean having better income and no responsibilities to defend space, then yes, different is a good word.

It's altogether loopy that people have FW alts to make themselves cash when their mains are in null. I don't get the hate - FW gives lowsec people a good, consistent income stream to support continued ship loss. Shouldn't nullsec also offer competitive bottom up income to sustain losses? It should strike any thinking person as odd that people would rather have an alt in FW to make money to sustain nullsec ship losses than actually use the space where they live.

Remote income sourcing is the bane of content in this game.




Income should indeed be moved towards bottom up , like it used to be in 2006-2007 age. But this must be carefully done to not unbalance economy too much since it is a potentially HUGE isk faucet or isk sink depending on how it's done.

Personally I think that economy could be paired to high sec missioning. How? High sec are the largest LP producers, Null sec could on other hand drop a LOT of the tags that LP stores ask for (and keep also an isk faucet).

Officer spawns could be increased... and of course the obvious possibilities that drifters bring into the table.

It'd be nice to see officer spawns increased. It would bring the cost of officer mods down a bit encouraging more people to fit them (and likely spend more on their fits than they do now), while providing a viable method of income generation for people who are patient enough to pursue it.

I once tried farming officers, and honestly out of the thousands of belts I went into I only ever had two officer rats, the better one of which only had a lot drop of 300M. Only one of those dropped an officer mod either, and it was a multispec ECM... less than useless.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1665 - 2015-03-17 15:41:30 UTC
I was bored this weekend and went belt ratting in a hisec .45-49 system (sec status is rounded to the nearest tenth). Got a faction spawn. It didn't even drop faction ammo. Just a copper tag. Really? Not even faction ammo? They used to drop BPCs.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY

Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#1666 - 2015-03-17 15:44:49 UTC
davet517 wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

We have been telling you we will deploy these things by the hundreds to thousands in small gangs.


Against whom? This isn't high-sec ganking. There isn't anyone out there that you can do this to who can't do it back. And then there are all those (NPC and low-sec entities) for whom you are a target, while they are not.

I don't really think you're complaining about this because you want CCP to save Eve from you.

They don't have to not do it back.
We just have to do it better.

And you people seriously have an awful memory, because complaining about changes because we want CCP to save EVE from us has been our consistent track record for the past several years.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1667 - 2015-03-17 15:59:01 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
In other words, "yo CCP, why you get low sec all up in my null sec?" lol
If getting some lowsec all up in their nullsec gets the average line pilot out in space on a regular basis, ...
Low Sec is barren, so many systems so few players .... how can it be good to make Null Sec more like that?

FW lowsec is a completely different story, and consistently the most regularly violent area of space in the game. I would absolutely love to see Nullsec more like that.

To folks complaining about us not needing to defend sov, you're wrong, we do it day in and day out. Having that flag on the map - and keeping it there - is what my alliance is about. We get assets locked in stations, and while we can Black Frog it out, with the new Freeport mechanic those options would be available to nullbears as well.

As I mentioned, we operate under no illusions that we can lock folks out of our space, or out of space we conquer. We conquer Caldari space, and they can be right back hitting it the very next day. In general, that leads to a much more fluid and dynamic warzone than the stagnation that grips sov nullsec so often.

In addition, if any of you had actually bothered to research my post history, you'd know that I consistently oppose FW being used as an LP / isk ATM by bored nullbears and others with no commitment to living and fighting inside the warzones. I'd much prefer for the top end FW income to be reduced and missions to be made far more difficult for the 3 factions who can currently AFK them in bombers.

I'd also support a revamp of sov nullsec economics, and if any of you had bothered to read the CSM comments from folks like Xander, you'd know that those things are already in train for Phase 3. You'd also know that CCP saw that if they did the nullsec income revamp first, that'd make entrenched parties far far richer than would be healthy for the game.

So shake up the sov map, then increase the incentives to live there. If you're smart, you'll tough out the Phase 2 changes and hold the line, since Phase 3 will probably make it very very worthwhile indeed.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

davet517
Raata Invicti
#1668 - 2015-03-17 16:22:32 UTC  |  Edited by: davet517
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
[

Why should we make our own taxes ourselves instead of just renting it to serfs to rat for us?


Because the serfs who would pay you can't defend it, and those who can won't be your serfs.

In the current model, you can have renters far away from you, because sov rarely gets challenged, and you don't really care about them being victimized by afk cloakers and roaming gangs. In the new model, those same roaming gangs can put your sov, and your renter's iHubs, at risk, repeatedly, to the point that being an absentee landlord becomes impractical.

You can remove the pretense of calling it rent and move to a straight up extortion model, where the people that their protection money protects them from is you, but, that's going to be a pretty crappy deal when they'll likely get extorted/victimized by others too, and there won't be much you can do about it short of charging them rent to live in your home space so that you can babysit them, which is fine, as long as your members don't intend or desire to rat themselves.

Good luck with that.
davet517
Raata Invicti
#1669 - 2015-03-17 16:31:00 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:

They don't have to not do it back.
We just have to do it better.

And you people seriously have an awful memory, because complaining about changes because we want CCP to save EVE from us has been our consistent track record for the past several years.


And I don't think you're getting that you can only do it to a sov holder. Those who live in NPC space don't really care how well you can do it, only that while you're out there doing it, they can do it to you.

This change does not favor top-down monolithic entities with a lot of territory, and fixed infrastructure. It favors guerrillas. A long time ago, when you lived in Syndicate and had nothing to lose, that was you, but, that was a long time ago.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1670 - 2015-03-17 16:38:00 UTC
Gorski Car wrote:
There are so many things you can do to counter trollceptors I cant help but think that this is a vocal minority overreacting and creating doomsday scenarios.


Not at all it has been logically explained for all to see. I do not want to chase around nano fleets that can burn through bubbles during my 4 hours. Not fun. On the other hand make them used on any other than an interceptor or covert ops and I'm fine.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1671 - 2015-03-17 17:06:37 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
I was bored this weekend and went belt ratting in a hisec .45-49 system (sec status is rounded to the nearest tenth). Got a faction spawn. It didn't even drop faction ammo. Just a copper tag. Really? Not even faction ammo? They used to drop BPCs.


I lived in Venal for a year, did a lot of belt ratting - never saw a single dread Gurista in all that time. Lived in Providence and Stain for a couple of years, and only saw a True Sansha a couple of times.

Nullsec ratting income is shite, no wonder hardly anyone does it any more.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1672 - 2015-03-17 17:17:38 UTC
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
There are so many things you can do to counter trollceptors I cant help but think that this is a vocal minority overreacting and creating doomsday scenarios.


Not at all it has been logically explained for all to see. I do not want to chase around nano fleets that can burn through bubbles during my 4 hours. Not fun. On the other hand make them used on any other than an interceptor or covert ops and I'm fine.


In other words, nothing that has a chance of getting past the insta-lock gatecamps you guys want to use to lock down your space.


Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.

Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1673 - 2015-03-17 17:31:59 UTC
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
There are so many things you can do to counter trollceptors I cant help but think that this is a vocal minority overreacting and creating doomsday scenarios.


Not at all it has been logically explained for all to see. I do not want to chase around nano fleets that can burn through bubbles during my 4 hours. Not fun. On the other hand make them used on any other than an interceptor or covert ops and I'm fine.

It has been explained for all to see that the counters exist, you folks just don't want to put forth the effort to use them.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#1674 - 2015-03-17 18:01:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
There are so many things you can do to counter trollceptors I cant help but think that this is a vocal minority overreacting and creating doomsday scenarios.


Not at all it has been logically explained for all to see. I do not want to chase around nano fleets that can burn through bubbles during my 4 hours. Not fun. On the other hand make them used on any other than an interceptor or covert ops and I'm fine.


In other words, nothing that has a chance of getting past the insta-lock gatecamps you guys want to use to lock down your space.




What exactly is the problem with that?
You want to get into a country you have to get past customs and border patrol first. WHs are your Coyotes, use them!

Ceptors and covert cloaks allow players to subvert nearly all defenses but the perfect defense: smart bombing battleships. I get so excited just Imagining 4 hours of sitting on all entry gates smart bombing as a small gang sits around to catch anyone who manged to get past via wormholes. Yes, fun was had by all as we sit tabbed out into another game as mine and other's alts effectively closed off all traffic for 4 hours a day.

OR

You could make the attacker actually fly something that gave the defender a variety of options to counter and be countered - creating actual content that forced people to put forth effort and planning when handling issues related to SOV.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#1675 - 2015-03-17 19:02:31 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
You're right. Lowsec pilots are fundamentally different than the average nullbear.


If by different, you mean having better income and no responsibilities to defend space, then yes, different is a good word.

It's altogether loopy that people have FW alts to make themselves cash when their mains are in null. I don't get the hate - FW gives lowsec people a good, consistent income stream to support continued ship loss. Shouldn't nullsec also offer competitive bottom up income to sustain losses? It should strike any thinking person as odd that people would rather have an alt in FW to make money to sustain nullsec ship losses than actually use the space where they live.

Remote income sourcing is the bane of content in this game.




Income should indeed be moved towards bottom up , like it used to be in 2006-2007 age. But this must be carefully done to not unbalance economy too much since it is a potentially HUGE isk faucet or isk sink depending on how it's done.

Personally I think that economy could be paired to high sec missioning. How? High sec are the largest LP producers, Null sec could on other hand drop a LOT of the tags that LP stores ask for (and keep also an isk faucet).

Officer spawns could be increased... and of course the obvious possibilities that drifters bring into the table.


Eh, the officer spawns should be left alone. It used to be exciting when you nabbed a deadspace fitted thing, but thanks to the escalation changes, they have lost the better part of their value. Let officer mods maintain their mystique.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?

Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1676 - 2015-03-17 19:11:14 UTC
Some specific questions on the Command Node capture event:


  • Are the Command Nodes in deadspace? (like Large FW complexes)
  • Is the exact victory condition for the event just "whoever first completes 10 nodes"?
  • Can NPC corp members use Entosis Links on structures?
  • Does the Entosis Link cycle continue without target lock?
  • Do the nodes have a visible timer for everyone on grid?



Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1677 - 2015-03-17 19:14:09 UTC
Nasar Vyron wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
In other words, nothing that has a chance of getting past the insta-lock gatecamps you guys want to use to lock down your space.

What exactly is the problem with that?
You want to get into a country you have to get past customs and border patrol first. WHs are your Coyotes, use them!

Ceptors and covert cloaks allow players to subvert nearly all defenses but the perfect defense: smart bombing battleships. I get so excited just Imagining 4 hours of sitting on all entry gates smart bombing as a small gang sits around to catch anyone who manged to get past via wormholes. Yes, fun was had by all as we sit tabbed out into another game as mine and other's alts effectively closed off all traffic for 4 hours a day.

OR

You could make the attacker actually fly something that gave the defender a variety of options to counter and be countered - creating actual content that forced people to put forth effort and planning when handling issues related to SOV.

Because the goal is to force you to be present and active in ALL the space you claim, not just the borders and chokepoints. To force you to move about and be active in space, not to let a small minority "guard the walls" against the rampaging hordes while everyone else AFKtars in peace.

Nullbears have been whining about Interceptor bubble immunity since it was introduced; the fact that you all want to ensure they can't use Entosis Links to disrupt your home is just another verse in the same old song.

Interceptors should, and indeed must, be allowed to use Entosis Links for that very reason.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#1678 - 2015-03-17 19:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nasar Vyron
Veskrashen wrote:
Because the goal is to force you to be present and active in ALL the space you claim, not just the borders and chokepoints. To force you to move about and be active in space, not to let a small minority "guard the walls" against the rampaging hordes while everyone else AFKtars in peace.

Nullbears have been whining about Interceptor bubble immunity since it was introduced; the fact that you all want to ensure they can't use Entosis Links to disrupt your home is just another verse in the same old song.

Interceptors should, and indeed must, be allowed to use Entosis Links for that very reason.



You literally had me laughing man. Seriously, do you know what game you are playing? Do you know that it is a game at all? Do you even know what Null sec is about? It is empire building plain and simple. Meaning the number one concern is/was/always will be is controlling your borders and keeping a capable police force within to maintain the peace.

You are suggesting that every player online should be actively roaming and protecting during these 4 hour windows, that is not a play style the vast majority of players are okay with (when it comes to game mechanics this is the all important factor); certainly not the ones who are attracted to nullsec. Some people have jobs and can only manage 4 or less hours a day to even be online. Forcing them to spend what time they have playing catch the ceptor gang is not a very good incentive to live in null, let along maintain a subscription.



Please try to understand this, EVE is a sandbox. Which means you are playing with hundreds and thousands of other players who have play styles that differ from your own.

People of high sec typically like the relative calm and ability to log on do what they want and log out again without being told what to do.
People of low are typically the skirmishers who like to brawl while knowing their assets are safe at home. But have a taste for adventure and don't mind following orders from time to time if it means more action.
People of null are the empire builders. They want to take this universe and manipulate it to suit their needs through industry and force. They give up all forms of perfect safety provided by NPC space knowing that their assets can be lost if not vigilant. This means that at times when the FC says "jump" you better jump.

I'll end with this, null is home to a myriad of players and play styles all active during different times of the day. Coalitions and renters exist and are popular for this very reason. They are both the builders and protectors of there slice of the universe. People rent because they wish to do what they want when they want under the protection of the coalitions as they have little interest in fleet combat or territory disputes. Coalitions exist because their is power in numbers. Trying to push a certain play style upon others defeats the underlining principles of a sandbox game.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1679 - 2015-03-17 20:09:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Veskrashen
Nasar Vyron wrote:
You literally had me laughing man. Seriously, do you know what game you are playing? Do you know that it is a game at all? Do you even know what Null sec is about? It is empire building plain and simple. Meaning the number one concern is/was/always will be is controlling your borders and keeping a capable police force within to maintain the peace.

You are suggesting that every player online should be actively roaming and protecting during these 4 hour windows, that is not a play style the vast majority of players are okay with (when it comes to game mechanics this is the all important factor); certainly not the ones who are attracted to nullsec. Some people have jobs and can only manage 4 or less hours a day to even be online. Forcing them to spend what time they have playing catch the ceptor gang is not a very good incentive to live in null, let along maintain a subscription.



Please try to understand this, EVE is a sandbox. Which means you are playing with hundreds and thousands of other players who have play styles that differ from your own.

People of high sec typically like the relative calm and ability to log on do what they want and log out again without being told what to do.
People of low typically like to fight while knowing their assets are safe at home. But have a taste for adventure and don't mind following orders from time to time if it means more action.
People of null are the empire builders. They want to take this universe and manipulate it to suit their needs through industry and force. They give up all forms of perfect safety provided by NPC space knowing that their assets can be lost if not vigilant. This means that at times when the FC says "jump" you better jump.

I'll end with this, null is home to a myriad of players and play styles all active during different times of the day. Coalitions and renters exist and are popular for this very reason. They are both the builders and protectors of there slice of the universe. People rent because they wish to do what they want when they want under the protection of the coalitions as they have little interest in fleet combat or territory disputes. Coalitions exist because their is power in numbers. Trying to push a certain play style upon others defeats the underlining principles of a sandbox game.

I'm well aware of what game i'm playing, well aware that people have differing play styles, etc etc etc. I'm well aware that null is about building empires and planting your flag. I've been in nullsec, I've built empires, I've planted flags. Been there, done that, have the t-shirt.

What I object to - and what nullsec players seem to have a hard time understanding - is that you shouldn't be able to build nice, high walls and not have to worry about the barbarians at the gate anymore. Interceptors, with their bubble immunity and ability to instantly align, provide a way to cross that impenetrable border to screw with the sheep in the interior. Do wormholes offer an option to jump that wall as well? Sure. But - and this is very important - once you're inside the walls, if you're not in something that's interdiction immune, you can still be bubbleinstalockcamped into whatever corner of sov nullspace you've been able to penetrate. You can, in short, be easily contained.

The threat of roaming Interceptors - ones that can't simply be be bubbleinstalockcamped into irrelevance - is what forces folks to be aware, to react, rather than simply sit around in perfect safety. Giving those same Interceptors the ability to impact sov - to literally set the bar so low for sov influence that ANYONE can screw with it, given the desire - means you can't rely on a supercap umbrella plus reputation tank plus bubbleinstalockcamps to keep your sov. You need to be willing to respond to threats quickly and decisively, all throughout your space.

Given that CCP has not yet given in to the nullbear demands to nerf Interceptor interdiction immunity, and given the fact that CCP Fozzie's design goal was to not restrict the Entosis Link from being used on any ship platform, I think we can take it as a given that part of CCP's design goals are specifically to prevent bubbleinstalockcamps from being a viable way to secure your sov. That they want the ninja marauding hordes of SovCeptors screwing with sov. That they want to force people to move, to react, to undock, to chase and to fight - or to risk losing their sov due to inaction.

In my opinion, that requirement to react is going to force empires to shrink to sizes where they are willing and able to respond quickly and effectively. How that impetus will shape the nullsec sovreignty map over time is something that is totally up in the air, but I'm reasonably confident it won't look like it does today.

And that's a good thing.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."

Nasar Vyron
S0utherN Comfort
#1680 - 2015-03-17 20:29:35 UTC
And that is why all of null sov is saying that these proposed changes are a mixed bag.

If you want sov you should be forced to repeatedly chip away at our walls until they crumble because we are fatigued by constant harassment. This is our home, it should not be suddenly open to attack from every angle and from within by forces that can only be chased not caught. There is no need for commitment by the attacker with this system, that is bad.

Yes, if you take a WH to get behind our walls in larger ships you will be vulnerable, that is fair play. You are wanting to take our assets we should be able to kill yours. You were able to circumvent our defenses via WHs and it will now take time for us to react. It's called commitment! If you want to take sov, commit. Don't just run around laughing as you screw with people in ships that are near uncatchable.