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[Discussion] Entosis Link Tactics and Ship Balance

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Zazad Antollare
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#941 - 2015-03-10 02:54:44 UTC
Ok im going to give a last try to the deployable/drone sov laser

The idea is that in order to make the link have the minimum effect on ships and tactics it should be detached from the ship carrying it. This will make that no matter what doctrine is being used the sov laser is the same for everyone, same hp and same sig/speed tank (if applicable)
For the sake of it call it entosis hacking module

Base attributes
1 per ship (low volume)
MTU level hp or whatever the devs fell is reasonable
Abandoning grid disconnects the module (possible not being able to scoop again)
Control ship has to be within 250k (or grid range)
Make it that you can only resupply in the same way you can resupply a ship (station, Pos, carrier,…)
If high slot is needed for any reason make it that it can be used with a launcher if not make it launch form cargo hold
Could be invulnerable while 2 or more links are active so that only when you truly control the grid be either killing the enemy ship with an active module or make them run away you can make the timer advance and not by only killing the module

Requirements:
1-As much as possible, the Entosis Link capture progress should reflect which group has effective military control of the grid. – Check

Only if you kill the enemy or if they leave you can advance the timer

2-The optimal strategy for fighting over a location with the Entosis Link should be to gain effective control of the grid. - Check

Same as above

3- The Entosis Link itself should have the minimum possible effect on what ships and tactics players can choose. –Check

Bring whatever you want, you win the fight you make the timer go forward

4- The restrictions and penalties on the Entosis Link should be as simple and understandable as possible. – Semi-Check

Some of the penalties that the current iteration of the link has won’t be transferable to this system but new ones can be added.

Some people might want KB to show their friends and even though a KB for the link can be generated people still want to kill ships that is the thing that this system might lack. Still I believe is better than a ship link since this way if people really want the sov they have to stay one grid and win the fight (you only have one chance per ship after deploying) or if people only want to troll they can only troll once until resupply (same resupply mechanics as ships).
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#942 - 2015-03-10 03:02:00 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
i feel like it still needs to be a ship-mounted module but it definitely needs anti-interceptor properties like the ones mentioned repeatedly in this thread

Nope. Interceptors already have counters. How much their ability to avoid gatecamps annoys you is just a bonus.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#943 - 2015-03-10 03:02:54 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
After all, your drakes must stay on grid until the hp bar gets to where it reinforces, so you should stay on grid until the sov laser gets the sov laser bar thing to the reinforce point.

Exactly! Stay on grid until the timer's run, or don't influence the timer at all.

Pretty simple, I think.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#944 - 2015-03-10 03:09:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
It's Structure Shooting Mk2: Structure Lasering

Ok, sounds good to me. Let's stick with the module concept. Not that drakes could really troll sov by shooting and scooting, but it's ok since we want frigates in their ones and twos to take sov

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#945 - 2015-03-10 03:13:56 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
It's Structure Shooting Mk2: Structure Lasering

Ok, sounds good to me. Let's stick with the module concept. Not that drakes could really troll sov by shooting and scooting, but it's ok since we want frigates in their ones and twos to take sov

As a FW pilot, this mechanic is very familiar to me. Be on grid for a set amount of time to cap a plex and advance your control of the system. It ain't hard - stay on grid, hold the grid, kill what comes.

Only difference is that the capture range for the new sov structures is 250km, it's not deadspace, and there's no cap on ship sizes.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Zazad Antollare
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#946 - 2015-03-10 03:15:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Zazad Antollare
No structure shooting XD nothing close to SBUs. The hp doesn’t really matter if its invulnerable while 2 or more links are active (contested) and if abandoning the grid destroys it (only should remain alive if the timer is won)
zzrat
F I G H T C L U B
H A R D L I N E R S
#947 - 2015-03-10 03:15:50 UTC
To combat the troll kite fit, the closer you are to the point the more control your ship has over it.
As in, Two of the same ship type, one at 250km and one at 10km the one at 10km will win.
Or don’t base it on ship type, the closes ship with a entosis on the point will win the tug of war, in the allotted time.
zz
Zazad Antollare
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#948 - 2015-03-10 03:29:06 UTC
You people really dont get it, the best way to deal with this is not changing how interceptors work or how the link interacts with the ship, its making that the link works in a way that is equal to all ships so that no ship class is favored in the sov war.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#949 - 2015-03-10 03:32:47 UTC
Zazad Antollare wrote:
You people really dont get it, the best way to deal with this is not changing how interceptors work or how the link interacts with the ship, its making that the link works in a way that is equal to all ships so that no ship class is favored in the sov war.

Exactly. Right now it does. No need to make special cases for those with high warp speeds or interdiction nullification properties.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#950 - 2015-03-10 03:33:10 UTC
Doesn't matter anymore.

In the past, it was ships with DPS and ideally not having to reload

Now it's just you need to be able to run about, and ideally not be catchable by bubbles

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Zazad Antollare
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#951 - 2015-03-10 03:36:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Zazad Antollare
Veskrashen wrote:
Zazad Antollare wrote:
You people really dont get it, the best way to deal with this is not changing how interceptors work or how the link interacts with the ship, its making that the link works in a way that is equal to all ships so that no ship class is favored in the sov war.

Exactly. Right now it does. No need to make special cases for those with high warp speeds or interdiction nullification properties.


Right now its doesnt, you stick it in a BS you have a tanky link, you stick it in a interceptor you have a fast and manuveral link, that doesnt seem the same (plus you have ilimited uses on the link).

the only thing it should change from ship to ship is how you deploy it (cloaky or brute force,etc) and how can you hold it, not the link itself
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#952 - 2015-03-10 03:41:06 UTC  |  Edited by: SilentAsTheGrave
In regards to the Entosis Link using fuel:

I think this is a good idea. Using one Strontium every time you turn the module on would do a few good things.

  1. As Mike pointed out earlier along with the original people I'm sure; it would mean there is some form of logistics taking place to contest these systems. Especially when it comes to the outer lying systems.
  2. Smaller ships, such as interceptors *hint hint*, will have to be somewhat selective on what systems to contest and how many times they are willing to try to contest it. If they find themselves dealing with actual defenders active in the system and negating their Entosis Link with their own, they will have wasted time and will need to move on.
  3. Even if super zippy, untouchable (allegedly... ) ships do their thing, they can only do it so long before they run out of fuel.
  4. The defenders have the luxary of nearby stations and POS's that are common for alliances that own sov to resupply their Entosis Links.
  5. Overdrive Injectors, which is used to gain fast speed, have a penalty to cargo space. Food for thought.
  6. If players do not like the idea of having to resupply so often with small fast ships, they can use larger ships with bigger cargo bays. These larger ships tend to be much, much slower than tiny fast frigates. Getting the picture now?

What the over all effect is it still means abandoned systems can still be captured just as easy as this new sov system wants, without having to subject itself to the mythical Trollceptors that terrorize the dreams of certain groups.

What are your thoughts?
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#953 - 2015-03-10 03:44:16 UTC
Zazad Antollare wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Zazad Antollare wrote:
You people really dont get it, the best way to deal with this is not changing how interceptors work or how the link interacts with the ship, its making that the link works in a way that is equal to all ships so that no ship class is favored in the sov war.

Exactly. Right now it does. No need to make special cases for those with high warp speeds or interdiction nullification properties.


Right now its doesnt, you stick it in a BS you have a tanky link, you stick it in a interceptor you have a fast and manuveral link, that doesnt seem the same (plus you have ilimited uses on the link).

the only thing it should change from ship to ship is how you deploy it (cloaky or brute force,etc) and how can you hold it, not the link itself

Actually, it works exactly the same regardless of the platform you're using - activate link, wait out the first cycle, timer ticks down at the same rate after that.

The fact that your choice of Link platform defines the problem for the defender to solve doesn't negate the fact that the Link module and capture mechanic remain exactly the same.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII
#954 - 2015-03-10 03:54:31 UTC
Orthrus

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#955 - 2015-03-10 04:16:02 UTC
while this system shares some blood with faction warfare, it's not faction warfare

there are no acceleration gates forcing all contenders into a tiny spit of space where they can be engaged at will

you have to try a little harder in 0.0
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#956 - 2015-03-10 04:28:14 UTC
People seem to be making the same wrong assumption over and over in this thread. When we say trollcepters can disengage at will we do not mean they warp off. Intercepters are fast enough to be able pull range on any sniper boat you care to bring ofter before it can even land out of warp. Said cepter can then burn off grid and simply vanish from the snipers overview. By the time you probe it down and warp to it it will be out of range again. This is why nobody ever bothers to probe these things down today.

Breaking through a gatecamp is not why dislike trollcepters as there is a large number of ships that can do that. Anything with a cov ops cloak can do that easily enough and most small gangs will fight their way in. What we hate is the idea of day after day of having to deal with cepters you likely cant catch for 4 hours.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#957 - 2015-03-10 04:59:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Veskrashen wrote:
Sure, it's an isk loss. The idea though is that if you can bugger off and leave the sov cap thingy behind, you're free to immediately drop another sov thingy on another structure.


Except as described, you can't. One active deployable per pilot. Ironically, this mechanic actually ties the attacker to the state of the target grid MORE than the "ship on grid" method. Attacker's ship is destroyed? Module e-link: they are now free to contest sov anywhere after they reship (which is not nearly the burden you claim it will be). Deployable e-link: they still can't deploy a new one until the fate of their previous one on the initial target grid is resolved (either destroyed, self-destructs, or finishes cycling and is scooped).

In fact, this lets the defenders gain control of the grid and lock down the ability for the troll to affect ANY sov for potentially hours (just depending on whatever the deployable self-destruct timer is set to... though 2hrs or so seems reasonable). The defender can take the risk of leaving the hostile deployable on grid but paused with a defensive one of their own, on the gamble that they can hold grid or destroy both before being forced off grid. At this point the attacker cannot drop a new deployable until the self-destruct timer on the original runs out, so potentially several hours of being tied to the fate of the grid they tried to troll.

In short, it ties the attacker to the grid even more than requiring the ship to stay on grid would, and makes them commit actual ISK and possibly time in a way far riskier than a module on a ship does.

All while having very little impact on actual fleets duking out grid control for sov. Except for some potentially interesting bait/ambush mechanics and locking out deployable options during control node contests, potentially.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#958 - 2015-03-10 05:04:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Zazad Antollare wrote:
You people really dont get it, the best way to deal with this is not changing how interceptors work or how the link interacts with the ship, its making that the link works in a way that is equal to all ships so that no ship class is favored in the sov war.


Agreed; best way to do THAT is to make it a deployable :)

EDIT: oh wait, that's what YOU said... ignore me :p
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#959 - 2015-03-10 05:53:16 UTC
The link cycle times should be reversed, and be separated into two different modules with each having proper T2 versions with the usual fitting and cap use drawbacks to balance their advantages. Numbers used for illustrative purposes only and don't represent months of planning and testing.

Entosis Connector I
range 20km, cycle time 5min

Entosis Connector II
range 25km, cycle time 4min

Entosis Link I
range 200km, cycle time 10min

Entosis Link II
range 250km, cycle time 8min

Higher positional risk, shorter exposure. Doesn't this feel more balanced?
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
#960 - 2015-03-10 05:54:27 UTC
In all honesty, I think you may be starting in the wrong place. The entosis modules balance is tied in heavily with vulnerability mechanics for systems. I think that is where you really need to conisder starting in order to properly balance the entosis module.

Essentially you need to start with the begging of the system, vulnerability and work your way along the capture process balancing each step after vulnerability according the the previous steps. One of the hardest and most fiercely debated topics is and will be the vulnerability mechanics once you have that nailed down you can then start working on the entosis module, then the # of timers and duration of timers, then the exit timers and command node battles (which will tie in somewhat to entosis mechanics).

While this may be perceived as a bit off topic, I hope you see the logic in what i'm trying to convey. The main goals in my mind are this.

1. Ensure a vibrant system where attacker and defender can fight each other in a meaningful way, that encourages PVP, not PVS (Player versus structures ./ command nodes)

2. Reduce to an extent possible troll reinforcement, without significantly discouraging real sov warfare.

3. Give the defender an advantage without making attacking a fruitless effort

I think as it stands all 3 of these are not really being achieved. They can happen under the proposed system, but as currently proposed it just doesn't really gel.

So basically work on the vulnerability, the 4 hour window must go. 24 hours, or some sort of scaled window seem to be the better option for a worldwide single shard game. Vulnerability shouldn't just happen because of time of day, there needs to be some sort of gameplay to induce vulnerability whether thats a single use structure that creates a vulnerable state in the system or some other more brilliant mechanic im incapable of thinking of (perhaps a new deploy able?). If you put in some sort of vulnerability enducing mechanic besides time of day, it is much easier to balance goals 1 2 and 3 and the entosis gameplay. I.E. entosising doesn't need to be a long process for initial reinforcement, you cant just reinforce any system just because your in a ceptor/claoky whatever with the module fit and no one happens to be looking at that moment. And you create a better fight starting mechanic than currently exists without leaving out as many timezones or any timezones.

Hopefully this comes across as well thought out. Not syaing I have the perfect solution, but the problem isnt as much the entosis module and how its used as much as it is the mechanics that govern when it can be used.