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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1181 - 2015-03-04 10:27:08 UTC
I have a question. Can a gang apply several entosis links, one to each station service at same time?



And then I must congratulate CCP on finnaly trying really hard to fix the major problems of 0.0. I might not agree with every detail, but seems a very valid approach.

The only point that I find disturbing is the concept of prime time. Why? Because you could have a coalition of a specific timezone ( you know very well what country I am talking about) become invulnerable by simply gathering all major forces that speak their own idiom/live in a certain timezone.

That is not easy to solv. But I hope someone might have a good idea on how to tackle that. Something as for example, the LONGER the constellation is stable (that means no one takes anythign from the owner there) the larger the prime time period becomes. SO if you have held stuff for 1 year with nothing contesting you. Your prime time window could be widened to 6 hours... Why ? Just a reaction to a clear state of near invulnerability, that opens up more chances.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1182 - 2015-03-04 10:29:58 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Zip Slings wrote:
Lickem Lolly wrote:
Welcome to Griefing Online!

I've read the blog a few times and tried very hard to find something positive, but I just don't see it. As someone who has lived in nullsec in small and large alliances, I can tell you this will be horrible.

Major problems:

1) Griefers in interceptors will be pinging our SOV for giggles 24/7


From the original dev blog:
" Build costs of approximately 20 million isk for Tech One, and approximately 80 million isk for Tech Two."

I expect CCP to raise this slightly or even dramatically but even if they don't. PLEASE hurl, literally hurl, as many 100M interceptors... as fast as you can, no, actually, faster, oh my god I can't wait just patch Tranquility now... into the waiting and loving arms of literally dozens of different configurations of sniper fit Attack BCs, HACs, and even other ceptors designed to run your ass down. My god I can't wait for those killmails to start rolling in.

TLDR:
STOP HYPERBOLIZING ABOUT FRIGATES


Quite true, but the reason for the hyperbolae is quite clear.

When defending a nation/territory, one can have :-

Arrowforce projection ( in Eve solution well in hand)
Arrow Defend one's borders.
Arrow Local defence.

Now without porous borders, there is no need whatsoever for local defence, one can reinforce the borders and have great swathes of space unoccupied, and unprotected.

Interceptors and fast frigates, make the border porous, thereby ENFORCING local defence by people living in occupied systems.

THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CHANGE.

By people campaigning against interceptors they are hoping to fool CCP into undoing all their work.

One of two things will happen.

If they succeed, they will celebrate their plan and CCP will look stupid.

If CCP succeed they will celebrate THEIR plan and those campaigning for "keep it practically as now" will look etc

I know where the smart money is betting............

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Zip Slings
SCI Zenith
Flying Dangerous
#1183 - 2015-03-04 10:30:36 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
Doctor Fabulous MD wrote:
Zip Slings wrote:


Anyways, http://i.imgur.com/qaDmPO3.png one semi-good warpin and dead Svipul.


The thing is, even if you land DIRECTLY ontop of the svipul through some kind of insane miracle, its burning at 11KM/s, which means its out of your scram range in a single tick, it takes an absolute minimum of 2 ticks (seconds) to lock something and activate a mod.

The best thing i can imagine is just hitting it with a 60KM web after a lucky warpin, but even then it can STILL burn out of range of any recon ship capable of fitting the multiple webs its going to take to kill it.

That thing has an align time of 28 seconds - you don't need to tackle it. (would be pointed by the ento thingy anyway)
Just probe and warp on top of it with a long range ship. You'll then have a low EHP target with a 750m sig radius burning in a more or less straight line away from you.


Yeah! That! I thought of it first!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1184 - 2015-03-04 10:30:43 UTC
EvilweaselFinance wrote:
we have to create a strategic mining division to protect important systems are you ******* kidding me

nullsec mining has been broken for ages, go look at the price of mega and zyd and then think about why on earth mining should play a role here


You do not need to do it, as long as you keep your sov within your reasonable size limits that you can react very fast. Buttt.. if you want a huge empire.. then you need to work...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1185 - 2015-03-04 10:30:55 UTC
bear mcgreedy wrote:
Arrow you say that it would be more beneficial to the little guy taking sov ( i don't see this as system is undersieged its about the blob recent mechanics its not about the skill sets its about numbers)

A defender'll have more ready access to reshipping upon losses than an attacker would, and moving around within an entire constellation means the defender'll have the possibility to have multiple ships stowed away in each system, while the attacker might not.

bear mcgreedy wrote:
Arrow the freeport idea is ok to a degree however a defending force with a lower player base(aka the little guy) vs a coalition such as n3 or cfc has no chance and can lose that system in a matter of hours - suggest having a draw back here to stop alliances moving the entire fleet in and hell camping the station. giving the attackers the advantage

Not necessarily, but it is a risk. It also allows an attacker to reinforce a system to get some of their own stuff out, which'll mean there's more incentive to actually attack than just "I want that system", which is all good.

bear mcgreedy wrote:
Arrow stop alliances having the timer 2 hrs before dt and two hrs after dt - that way they have to be active and cannot take advantage of any extra down time.

Or just extend the primetime to compensate for the downtime?
Zip Slings
SCI Zenith
Flying Dangerous
#1186 - 2015-03-04 10:31:46 UTC
bear mcgreedy wrote:
So i've finally gotten round to reading the blogs and looked at it and teh first reaction is you looked at teh faction warfare model and have adapated it to null sec model?

In principle i think the idea is a good one sov becomes vulnerable and able to be taken fairly quickly however i have a few questions that seem to be eluded in the posts

Arrow you say that it would be more beneficial to the little guy taking sov ( i don't see this as system is undersieged its about the blob recent mechanics its not about the skill sets its about numbers)

Arrow it seems we have adapted a capture the flag and defend the flag mechanic.

Arrow the freeport idea is ok to a degree however a defending force with a lower player base(aka the little guy) vs a coalition such as n3 or cfc has no chance and can lose that system in a matter of hours - suggest having a draw back here to stop alliances moving the entire fleet in and hell camping the station. giving the attackers the advantage

Arrow stop alliances having the timer 2 hrs before dt and two hrs after dt - that way they have to be active and cannot take advantage of any extra down time .

keep up the good work i know this is work in progress .


The system still favors those that can leverage a huge force in an organized fashion. Working as intended.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1187 - 2015-03-04 10:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Lickem Lolly wrote:
Welcome to Griefing Online!

I've read the blog a few times and tried very hard to find something positive, but I just don't see it. As someone who has lived in nullsec in small and large alliances, I can tell you this will be horrible.

Major problems:

1) Griefers in interceptors will be pinging our SOV for giggles 24/7
..



The 2 parts of your statements are contraditory. If you ad REALLY read ANYTHING. You would know they will be able to ping your sov only 4 hours per day....a t your PRIME TIME.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Endie
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1188 - 2015-03-04 10:33:38 UTC
Rather than James315 the thread up I posted the first of what will be a short series of articles on Fozziesov on my blog: http://www.endie.net/wordpress/2015/03/scyllasov-fozziesov-called-anyway/

tl;dr is that I welcome huge swathes of the system but there are a few areas that are clearly designed to be tweaked that probably need tweaked.
Zip Slings
SCI Zenith
Flying Dangerous
#1189 - 2015-03-04 10:33:58 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Zip Slings wrote:
Lickem Lolly wrote:
Welcome to Griefing Online!

I've read the blog a few times and tried very hard to find something positive, but I just don't see it. As someone who has lived in nullsec in small and large alliances, I can tell you this will be horrible.

Major problems:

1) Griefers in interceptors will be pinging our SOV for giggles 24/7


From the original dev blog:
" Build costs of approximately 20 million isk for Tech One, and approximately 80 million isk for Tech Two."

I expect CCP to raise this slightly or even dramatically but even if they don't. PLEASE hurl, literally hurl, as many 100M interceptors... as fast as you can, no, actually, faster, oh my god I can't wait just patch Tranquility now... into the waiting and loving arms of literally dozens of different configurations of sniper fit Attack BCs, HACs, and even other ceptors designed to run your ass down. My god I can't wait for those killmails to start rolling in.

TLDR:
STOP HYPERBOLIZING ABOUT FRIGATES


Quite true, but the reason for the hyperbolae is quite clear.

When defending a nation/territory, one can have :-

Arrowforce projection ( in Eve solution well in hand)
Arrow Defend one's borders.
Arrow Local defence.

Now without porous borders, there is no need whatsoever for local defence, one can reinforce the borders and have great swathes of space unoccupied, and unprotected.

Interceptors and fast frigates, make the border porous, thereby ENFORCING local defence by people living in occupied systems.

THIS IS THE WHOLE POINT OF THE CHANGE.

By people campaigning against interceptors they are hoping to fool CCP into undoing all their work.

One of two things will happen.

If they succeed, they will celebrate their plan and CCP will look stupid.

If CCP succeed they will celebrate THEIR plan and those campaigning for "keep it practically as now" will look etc

I know where the smart money is betting............


Can we simplify this down to "Zip is right and all you nullbears stop whining"?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1190 - 2015-03-04 10:35:07 UTC
Starman 1 wrote:
Guess I do think they are making this to easy, alliance need always to be ready to undock a fleet. If this don't mosty benefits large entities to be able to keep their sov i dont know who else than griefers it might benefit. Smal aliances cant keep sov unless noone wants it. But hey can be the Griefer in stead Bear


No.. it benefits large alliances on SMALL AREAS . Large alliances trying to spread over 6 regions will be doomed to failure. And on that space, smaller alliances will pour into.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Doctor Fabulous MD
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1191 - 2015-03-04 10:36:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Fabulous MD
Jack Hayson wrote:
Doctor Fabulous MD wrote:
Zip Slings wrote:


Anyways, http://i.imgur.com/qaDmPO3.png one semi-good warpin and dead Svipul.


The thing is, even if you land DIRECTLY ontop of the svipul through some kind of insane miracle, its burning at 11KM/s, which means its out of your scram range in a single tick, it takes an absolute minimum of 2 ticks (seconds) to lock something and activate a mod.

The best thing i can imagine is just hitting it with a 60KM web after a lucky warpin, but even then it can STILL burn out of range of any recon ship capable of fitting the multiple webs its going to take to kill it.

That thing has an align time of 28 seconds - you don't need to tackle it. (would be pointed by the ento thingy anyway)
Just probe and warp on top of it with a long range ship. You'll then have a low EHP target with a 750m sig radius burning in a more or less straight line away from you.



how exactly are you going to warp to a ship going that fast, it takes 10 seconds minimum to probe,warpin, lock target, and activate mod, by that time its already 100km away, no longer in a straight line, so still impossible to track.

and the 28 second align time is with mwd on, just shut it off to warp out.

(and its 300 sig radius)
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1192 - 2015-03-04 10:37:57 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I have a question. Can a gang apply several entosis links, one to each station service at same time?

Last I checked, yes.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
The only point that I find disturbing is the concept of prime time. Why? Because you could have a coalition of a specific timezone ( you know very well what country I am talking about) become invulnerable by simply gathering all major forces that speak their own idiom/live in a certain timezone.

This is something which might be a good idea, and it might not. I'm cautiously erring on the side of it being better than 24/7 availability of initial reinforce, but the length'll probably have to be tweaked.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
That is not easy to solv. But I hope someone might have a good idea on how to tackle that. Something as for example, the LONGER the constellation is stable (that means no one takes anythign from the owner there) the larger the prime time period becomes. SO if you have held stuff for 1 year with nothing contesting you. Your prime time window could be widened to 6 hours... Why ? Just a reaction to a clear state of near invulnerability, that opens up more chances.

An alternative idea is to make it so the bigger you are (either character-wise, or number of systems/constellations), the longer timeframe the primetime'll have.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1193 - 2015-03-04 10:40:33 UTC
Zip Slings wrote:
Lickem Lolly wrote:
Welcome to Griefing Online!

I've read the blog a few times and tried very hard to find something positive, but I just don't see it. As someone who has lived in nullsec in small and large alliances, I can tell you this will be horrible.

Major problems:

1) Griefers in interceptors will be pinging our SOV for giggles 24/7


From the original dev blog:
" Build costs of approximately 20 million isk for Tech One, and approximately 80 million isk for Tech Two."

I expect CCP to raise this slightly or even dramatically but even if they don't. PLEASE hurl, literally hurl, as many 100M interceptors... as fast as you can, no, actually, faster, oh my god I can't wait just patch Tranquility now... into the waiting and loving arms of literally dozens of different configurations of sniper fit Attack BCs, HACs, and even other ceptors designed to run your ass down. My god I can't wait for those killmails to start rolling in.

TLDR:
STOP HYPERBOLIZING ABOUT FRIGATES



aa no.. Simply that will NOT work. An interceptor that cannto move will die in exaclty 2 seconds. So it will NEVER compelte a SINGLE cycle.

So no effect. People with minimal knowledge will not try to spam frigates. Any ship that cannot survive a few minutes will be worthless son that role. People will likely have to KILL the defenders before tryign to take something, OR when there are very few in system, using a marauder will be feasible (since you cannot kill one with a bunch of defense interceptors before it reinforce something).

So you can bring 4 TRILLION interceptors with these modules. As long as there is a single munin on grid the interceptors will NEVER get the station reinforced unless they kill the munin.


THAT PROBLEM DOES NOT EXIST!

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#1194 - 2015-03-04 10:41:06 UTC
Will cloaking be disabled while entosis link is active?

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1195 - 2015-03-04 10:42:52 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
I have a question. Can a gang apply several entosis links, one to each station service at same time?

Last I checked, yes.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
The only point that I find disturbing is the concept of prime time. Why? Because you could have a coalition of a specific timezone ( you know very well what country I am talking about) become invulnerable by simply gathering all major forces that speak their own idiom/live in a certain timezone.

This is something which might be a good idea, and it might not. I'm cautiously erring on the side of it being better than 24/7 availability of initial reinforce, but the length'll probably have to be tweaked.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
That is not easy to solv. But I hope someone might have a good idea on how to tackle that. Something as for example, the LONGER the constellation is stable (that means no one takes anythign from the owner there) the larger the prime time period becomes. SO if you have held stuff for 1 year with nothing contesting you. Your prime time window could be widened to 6 hours... Why ? Just a reaction to a clear state of near invulnerability, that opens up more chances.

An alternative idea is to make it so the bigger you are (either character-wise, or number of systems/constellations), the longer timeframe the primetime'll have.



Yup that might work as well. But I hope CCP stops and thinks a bit about it. Otherwise I predict a null sec fragmentation by idiom/timezone, because the most powerful tool of defense will be: simply have 50% + of the players on your timezone. And coalitions WILL PUSH FOR IT, as they have pushed for every gap on history of eve.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1196 - 2015-03-04 10:43:37 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Will cloaking be disabled while entosis link is active?

As it is an active module, I think that is pretty much certain.

I Didn't see it specifically mentioned, but it was not mentioned that it specifically operated in a different manner to any other active module. so pretty sure.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1197 - 2015-03-04 10:44:22 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Will cloaking be disabled while entosis link is active?



Considering you cannot LOCK anything while cloaked.. it is not even needed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1198 - 2015-03-04 10:48:47 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:

Arrow Will the Entosis cycle be affected by TIDI? ( I hope so otherwise Wyvern > Levi >Avatar > Aeon supremacy )

There was a graph showing all the ships and their usage and damage. In this graph it showed battleships in a great place. Not to overpowered but able to project decent damage their hull size and investment.
These two points seem clear, from the dev blogs:

1. TiDI = yes
"Both the cycle time of the Entosis Link module and the actual capture process will be affected by time dilation."

2. Battleship position on the graph: one can draw different conclusions from the same set of data. The graph headline was "graph of PVP damage by class" - that implied all PVP damage, everywhere. Therefore its legit to say the figure could be biased in favor of BS damage during SOV grinds, pos & poco bashes - everywhere. Rise's point is that the BS class is getting used and applying lots of damage during the graph period, but for many players, the way they are used (structure grinding), or the fact that their group does not use them or see them around for various reasons, is more important.



After the sov changes are applied.. Lets just remember rise to RE MAKE that graphic. I could bet a cookie that battleships will sink into oblivion.

Then we can rub on gamce balance team face that battleships need love.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Calorn Marthor
Standard Fuel Company
#1199 - 2015-03-04 10:49:44 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Next I would seek to create incentives for people to reside in nullsec. One of the biggest is the ability to be self sustaining via local resources. I would then give the orca , jump freighter , bowhead & rorqual the same fatigue as other ships. I would reduce the JF range of that to all other ships. Doing this would make nullsec so much healthier. A real sense of community when the welfare & supply of the alliance is shared by all. Instead of what we currently have " A few guys and some cynos whisking off to Jita to procure everything players need" When you do this you end up with more players in space doing things to supply the alliance and its members with all the goods and materials they need to function.

CCP has already said this is planned. The reason why industrial ships received the 90% bonus to Jump Fatigue is to buy them time until they are able to do a proper resource gathering balance to allow groups to live off null instead of relying on Jita so much. Once that happens the bonus to Jump Fatigue will be removed.

One step at a time my friend. Blink


For the record:
When these changes were announced I argued that Nullsec ressource distribution is in dire need of rebalancing.

However, we did the test. And it turns out I was wrong.

Went to remote nullsec with the goal of trying to set up full T2 production. T2 has the most complicated production chains, so that would be a good indicator to whether it is possible to be self sufficient or not.
And we said no matter what happens - we will NOT use jump freighters.
We are 2 industrialists with no extra indu alts.
We operate equivalent 4 Large Towers for reactions and from time to time some extra small ones to get certain ressources.
The operational area is roughly 1 constellation (8 systems).
R64s and R32s are traded from our friendly moon overlords who are also happy to buy the final products for their fleets.
There is a bit of alchemy involved and in the end we only need to import 1-2 sorts of moon goo from empire.
13 PI colonies produce POS fuel components.
Running the thing now since 5 months, production capacity is like 6 T2 cruisers per week (or 25 frigs or a mixture) which is enough to supply a small corporation or alliance.
Logistics are easier than expected. We are dependant on empire (no local Caldari Isotopes and several other materials available plus we import all the other ice stuff because no one likes mining), but we only need about 5 trips to empire monthly in a DST.
Those are easily manageable since we use wormhole connections. One basically needs ONE dedicated scanner/explorer and will get a decent connection every other day. And getting the scanner is not an issue since exploration easily yields 100-200M ISK/hour while searching for the empire connection.

Basically the only downside is that you need to reconfigure the reaction towers all the time.
And this is configuration HELL.
There is so many little things that make this task incredibly complicated (put nicely: "challenging") that you almost instantly go insane.
It needs tons of spreadsheets, container and bookmark systems etc and still you make mistakes all the time and cause inefficiencies.
And the ISK gain is less than what you get from running optimized reactions with a dedicated tower for each one.

I would have liked to present these results to CCP Greyscale, but sadly he's gone meanwhile... :-/

TL;DR:
JFs are already unnecessary, people just need to be a bit creative ;-)
Zip Slings
SCI Zenith
Flying Dangerous
#1200 - 2015-03-04 10:51:11 UTC
Zappity wrote:
Will cloaking be disabled while entosis link is active?

Oh god I hope so. No sov lazer + cloak trick please CCP