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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Tiberian Deci
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#381 - 2015-03-03 18:13:50 UTC
Heptameron wrote:

and now you effectively taken away offensive deployment away from my 'home'....


Well if there isn't anyone to fight near your home maybe you need less blues
Total Newbie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#382 - 2015-03-03 18:13:52 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Total Newbie wrote:
Since the proposed change is out, I would think that the meeting minutes of The current CSM and it's members who are supporting this be published as well. The NDA seems to be null and void now.

what makes you say that



Transparency mate. Non-disclosure agreement should be null and void on the proposed changes, because CCP posted them here. CSM minutes as to who supported this should be published for all to see.
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#383 - 2015-03-03 18:14:16 UTC
imtokenitnow wrote:
About the primetime zone, why don't scale it on member count AND/OR number of TCU, IHUB, stations ?
And make the ability to split the timer in two primetime (who can be close together) if > 6h (for exemple) ?

It should not be too hard to find a function doing that.

Like :
3H Small number of alliance & systems : Phoebe Freeport Republic
5H Medium-Large number of alliance & systems : Curatores Veritatis Alliance or Northern Coalition.
2*4H Huge number of alliance & systems : Northern Associate or Goonswarm Federation.

It resolve some of the problems of the unique primetime & also the bigger you are, the harder it is to protect your space.

What do you think about that ?



While I like the idea it would probably do nothing since the vulnerable state will end about 15 minutes after it started just by repping the stuff back up via the E-link thingy.

The 4h timeframe pretty much splits an alliance into 4h-a-day-sovfleetplayers and 19,5h-a-day farmers.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#384 - 2015-03-03 18:14:21 UTC
Oh, CCP, are you going to change your node balancing also? As far as Iremember, you are throwing systems on a server based on activity and if you have a whole quiet constellation, it has a high chance of ending on the same node either partly or fully, creating a situation where a single node has to handle the thousands of players even if they span multiple systems?

Easy way to demostrate: get 3000 pilots travelliing through lowsec in 2 clumps, you will have 3-9 systems around the route in TiDi even if no pilots have been in them for 20 minutes.
Gypsien Agittain
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#385 - 2015-03-03 18:14:34 UTC
Aiwha wrote:
Aight, here's a more serious post. I like the "command node" system. Spreading the actual fighting to the constelation vs several grids in the same system spreads out lag, adds a little more strategy, gives jump bridges and titans a little more use for defenders, its okay. "One sov structure per system", again, good idea. Cuts down on station spam, makes pve riskier, less structures, good idea. "Freeport mode" also a good idea, gives people a reasonable timeframe to organize actual move ops vs. installing a JC and waiting a month.

Now here's the bad ****. Timed "vulnerability". Bullshit. Everything should be vulnerable to people ******* with it all the time. Any TZ should be able to roam around reinforcing **** whenever they want. Now the actual reinforcement timers themselves should obviously stay, the defender gets to pick when they want to start the fight, but not when somebody wants to be a **** and turn off all your station stuff and/or reo a region.

Next up, the whole entosis module ****. This is just going to promote putting as many warm bodies into stabbed interceptors as possible and blitzing command nodes. Thats no fun. The entosis module needs to promote actual fleet fighting rather than 9k/s games of tag. A good compromise might be rendering an entosis ship completely immobile like a siege/triage which would promote taking and holding grid BEFORE you start flipping a command node.


Thirdly, Why should we attack/defend anything? Currently, the major reason to hold nullsec space is to rent it out. Because to be perfectly honest, when compared to other areas of EVE, null income is pretty goddamn ****. With our massive renter empire, N3 is able to squeeze out actual income for our pvp pilots and alliance operations, but without the scale of a rental empire, there's just no point in holding any sov at all. Most of the people who actually do "sov null" would just stop caring about sov at all, we're gonna end up staking out areas of NPC space to live in and pretty much making our own sov system. Hell, a good chunk of null already has alt in highsec farming incursions for our personal incomes. So whats the solution? BUFF NULL PVE. Give me a reason to want to carebear in nullsec. Because otherwise, farming incursions in highsec and running roams out of NPC null is a better way to live than earning shittastic nullbear income and playing interceptor tag ever day.


Whats your opinion about Supercapitals use due to this changes?
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
#386 - 2015-03-03 18:14:59 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Vigilanta wrote:
also, did it not occur to you that sov war is now basically a giant frigate fleet, with little or no reason to use anything larger, due to guns playing no part in it, just mobility?


You have to sit around on the Command thingy for up to 40 minutes. Any cruiser fleet would shread a frigate fleet in 10-40 minutes. Thus it is not frigates online.



if they sit on one node, you sit on the other 9, remember there are multiple nodes spawned at the same time
jurgen b
Papal Zouaves
#387 - 2015-03-03 18:15:23 UTC
So nul sec groups roaming in FW systems, fighting FW members without gaining LP just for kills because they dont find that in nul sec, ok all good non complains, even tho they also dont gain LP by it. Nul sec groups, ganking in high sec and war dec in high sec because again they are bored in nul sec so they start to fight people who dont want to be in war in high sec. So maybe CCP tought, lets all combine everything from FW low and war decs and ganks in high all into 1 combined mechanic into nul sec because that is what people in nul sec search for, in LOW and high sec, so lets give them that. Is that plausible?
If that was what people ware searching for in low and high sec, why do they complain when possible more action will happen. because that is what the nul sec peeps accoarding the forums wanted all along. Eve mercs can play a hugh part in this as well as attacker. you can rent a merc millitary force as attacker.

And also CCP stated it is open for feedback and tweaks will happen in the mechanics that is why they released the dev blog. so constructive feedback can happen and so everything can be tweaked and adjusted and good ideas go in and bad out again Big smile
Apokolypse
Perkone
Caldari State
#388 - 2015-03-03 18:15:47 UTC
this is absolutely horrid. Noones doing FW so lets make sov resemble it so someone actually does it? Everyone in CSM who recommended this travesty of a system should be voted out in the coming elections.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#389 - 2015-03-03 18:15:57 UTC
Tiberian Deci wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
xartin wrote:
gment the nullsec playerbase as entire major regions of eve's active timezones will be excluded from participating in content.

Think from the perspective of an attacker wanting to capture alliance held space that is only vulnerable during EUtz.

UStz and AUtz will be completely excluded from any ability to be useful or participate. the same scenario would apply for defenders as well.

How is this different than properly stronting a timer, or a POCO timer? Defender picks his advantageous time, and everybody adjusts accordingly.


BECAUSE OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND HARD AND CCP ARE KILLING MY PLAYSTYLE AND MAKING SOV WORTHLESS!!!!!


No, sov is largerly worthless already, only thing the vast majority of buffer zones allow you to do is get an early warning that a Random Legion is knocking on your door.

Then again, I'm sure Test could live in a region full of -0.05's just because it's sov.
Nyan Lafisques
Blue Horizons.
#390 - 2015-03-03 18:16:24 UTC
Heptameron wrote:
So you took away hot drops
You took away fast moving cap warfare
You took away large supercap fights
You gave me space aids

and now you effectively taken away offensive deployment away from my 'home'....

Oh but you have given the griefer in a kestrel a great tool to get their s**ts and giggles....

Nice CCP nice..... *slow clap*


If all your neighbors weren't blue you wouldn't need to "deploy away from your home".
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#391 - 2015-03-03 18:16:31 UTC
Tiberian Deci wrote:
Quote:
How is this different than properly stronting a timer, or a POCO timer? Defender picks his advantageous time, and everybody adjusts accordingly.


BECAUSE OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND HARD AND CCP ARE KILLING MY PLAYSTYLE AND MAKING SOV WORTHLESS!!!!!
It was an honest question. Players could come back with "Stront timers can be gamed - which leads to a chance of off-TZ defense", or "I'd be OK with this if the timers could be Constellation Based instead of universally applied to the entire alliance. Now my AUTZ buds in the alliance could have something to do."
Olya Tsarev
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#392 - 2015-03-03 18:17:02 UTC
Total Newbie wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Total Newbie wrote:
Since the proposed change is out, I would think that the meeting minutes of The current CSM and it's members who are supporting this be published as well. The NDA seems to be null and void now.

what makes you say that



Transparency mate. Non-disclosure agreement should be null and void on the proposed changes, because CCP posted them here. CSM minutes as to who supported this should be published for all to see.


Well as I said earlier, I have proof Sion endorsed this change with the full details prior to the announcement today over on Goonfleet.com

Seems he is very supportive of these changes and is perfectly content with the breaking of his NDA since, as you said, it was released by CCP eventually.
Total Newbie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#393 - 2015-03-03 18:17:03 UTC
Emmy Mnemonic wrote:
Generally - interesting gameplay to be had! Nice work CCP, now you just need to tweak this a bit...

Pros:
* Small gangs can take sov and will harass bigger entities empty sov-space (there is a LOT of totally empty sov-systems today!). Excellent! Using WHs to harass enemy sov will be done a lot!
* Freeport station for 48h - awsome idéa!
* Constellation-wide conflict - awsome! Making tactical use of the "geography" of constellations will be a key in caoturing sov - nice!
* Non-scaling of entosis-modules - nice! A fleet of 1 or 1000 doesn't matter. Power to the solo/small-gangs!

Cons:
* Small gangs will never be able to hold on to sov once they have taken it, but I guess that was never the thought with this anyway?!
* This was supposed to be simpler than the current sov-grind?! My eyes bleed after all this text! ;-)
* The "Primetime"-concept is a bit awkward - there is a big risk that certain Tz:s will never be part of any fun sov-harassment or serious sov-warfare. Also a "primetime" in a week-day is usually not the "primetime" in week-ends. Fights will always be within the Tz:s and that is a bit boring really. So rethink pls!

Questions:
* Once a structure/station has a new owner; what will the default prime-time be set to? Will changing this default prime-time the first time always induce the 96h transition period where the structure has 2 vulnerability-periods during this transition? I think this might need a bit of rethinking too...
* What determins the owning corp of a captured structure? Will it default to the executor corp of the alliance no matter what, or will it be the corp that had the "killing-entosis-cycle" or how will that work?

And the final most important question:
* What the h*ll shall I use my Super Carrier for now?! Can't shoot POSes, no need to grind structures because "entosis", power-projection-nerfs effectively killed hotdropping capitals....Unsubbing is the best option, or does CCP plan to add some new "role" instead of the role of "main structure grinder"? DPS is not king anymore...(death to all supers - I know, I know! Just didn't expect CCP to kill them in this way!)


To add onto your post.... how does one transfer a station? The transferee uses his link and waits 96 hours?
Cassandra Masami
Silnare
#394 - 2015-03-03 18:17:42 UTC
I can foresee more I-Hubs and TCUs getting destroyed from these changes. Will some of the larger sov structures that require T1 freighters (like I-Hubs) to move around be reduced in size or even expense?
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#395 - 2015-03-03 18:18:54 UTC
Apokolypse wrote:
this is absolutely horrid. Noones doing FW so lets make sov resemble it so someone actually does it? Everyone in CSM who recommended this travesty of a system should be voted out in the coming elections.


ATM, more people do FW than do sov structure grinds (some > none). Large coalition leaders are on record as stating that they won't be responsible for starting ANY war that could devolve into the horrible structure mechanic grind. Honestly, practically ANY system would be better than what exists now. This is a case where movement in any direction is better than standing still for CCP. Even if they get it completely wrong the first time around, it will shake things up and make other solutions more apparent.
virm pasuul
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#396 - 2015-03-03 18:20:14 UTC
If I was a dev I wouldn't ever read any post feedback thread until 48 hours after the dev blog.
Better still lock it for 48 hours for the information to sink into people's skulls and percolate a little before posting.
Then open the threads.
So much throwing of toys out of prams. The price of toys in Jita is going through the roof.

If you are upset you should realise a few things:

It's not possible for one solution to make everyone happy. Some sort of best for everyone compromise is necessary.

Stagnation is bad for the game. Just because a crumb from top table drops in your lap occasionally does not means things should not change. Think of the wider picture of the game a a whole.

If **** ain't blowing up regularly what's the point in being rich? It becomes meaningless.

The devs laid out clear goals in the post. If you think they missed those goals, or can think of a better way to reach those goals then maybe explain your idea and reasoning.
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad
Against ALL Authorities
#397 - 2015-03-03 18:20:55 UTC
Man, chaos is coming.

What are gonna do with sov upgrades? They grow for like month, and won'be viable in current state when a system can switch owners like 3 times a week
Tiberian Deci
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#398 - 2015-03-03 18:21:21 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Tiberian Deci wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
xartin wrote:
gment the nullsec playerbase as entire major regions of eve's active timezones will be excluded from participating in content.

Think from the perspective of an attacker wanting to capture alliance held space that is only vulnerable during EUtz.

UStz and AUtz will be completely excluded from any ability to be useful or participate. the same scenario would apply for defenders as well.

How is this different than properly stronting a timer, or a POCO timer? Defender picks his advantageous time, and everybody adjusts accordingly.


BECAUSE OMG IT'S DIFFERENT AND HARD AND CCP ARE KILLING MY PLAYSTYLE AND MAKING SOV WORTHLESS!!!!!


No, sov is largerly worthless already, only thing the vast majority of buffer zones allow you to do is get an early warning that a Random Legion is knocking on your door.

Then again, I'm sure Test could live in a region full of -0.05's just because it's sov.


TEST can stand on it's own without aid from 15,000 other people too, collapsing 2 alliances into iself, and being under the thumb of Mittani too. Now if we are done measuring e-peen, sov isn't worthless. The people that own the majority of it have turtled up and decided that it's in their best interest to be friends and make money off of it without actually using it themselves. This is nerfing that, and will hopefully bring about a more active and dynamic sov ecosystem where gudfites are easily found and people deploying across the map for fights because they allied with everyone next door is a thing of the past.
Destoya
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#399 - 2015-03-03 18:21:51 UTC
To me the mechanics themselves aren't as the important as the single fact that you guys are finally giving the stagnated nullsec the shake it needs to wake up.

I commend CCP for making some truly radical changes, though waiting as long as you have with the current system was definitely a mistake in my opinion.

Not even mad that my 150bn of supercapitals are essentially left without a practical use from my initial understanding of the system. To all those complaining, yes some things aren't going to be as easymode as they were. However, please realize that the current state of sov is not healthy whatsoever, and that for the good of the game something needed to be done.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#400 - 2015-03-03 18:21:59 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Even if they get it completely wrong the first time around, it will shake things up and .....
lead to more pew until they iterate on it.

Change is good. Proven to lead to more pew until ruthless optimization takes hold.