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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3581 - 2015-03-09 04:50:47 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:
So I am asking you. Do you think the GOALS were good ones or did you like the antithesis, Did you enjoy grinding structures, N+1 being the key to winning, all of which we have right now?

Does this plan address the goals properly?

m


First off, yes, I think the goals were good ones. I also think that in the long run, N+1 will always be the key to winning. It still is here: if I can put more people into your space to get the command nodes than you can, I'll win.

However...

I'd love to structure shoot, if you have to as well.

Please invade and drop tons of sbus in dek. I would love to log in and shoot them.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Gus Machado
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3582 - 2015-03-09 04:58:36 UTC
Free port is hilariously funny but good.

but the more i read this thread the more it resembles something i have seen before. The only difference being instead of having a ship circle a beacon in a plex killing npc to gain sov you have to activate an entosis link module on a sov based structure to do the same thing? and then for the second timer you get command nodes spread throughout the constellation (IE fw-plexes in different systems but the same constellation) and if the smaller entities do not fight now what makes you think they will fight after this change. lol we love content we crave content but ccp you give none of us incentive to keep sov. if you did you would see more fights because the invaders would want the benefits but right now this is turning into trolls online and its never going to get any better unless you give the smaller entities incentives to fight and the bigger sov holders incentives to stay and keep their sov truly this game will continue to degenerate into interceptors online. i mean why fly anything else.

that's my 2 cents at least.

ps:
overpowered/non-catch able/with bubble immunity "lol"---------the greatest ship eve created "interceptors"
davet517
Raata Invicti
#3583 - 2015-03-09 05:04:19 UTC
Vigilanta wrote:


did you considered that the blue donut might just get bluer, and that in response to CCP's new mechanics well call it a day and jsut crush the attempted new entrants? and before you say butbutbut that will never happen, think again, we really are that vindictive.


How is this different from now?

Quote:
As an addition if were busy fighting every frig and cruiser that enters our space the big wars between the heavyweights just wont happen because were to busy crushing the new entrants. We have the organizational structures in place to ensure you never take a system as well, and are nto afraid to do it day in and day out even if its mindbogglingly boring and stupid.


I'm never one to discount nerd rage as a motivator, but, what matters over the long haul is where the fun is right? If it's mind-bogglingly stupid and boring for you to try to hang on to half the map, while it's fun as hell to make you try to hang on to it, well, even the most righteous of nerd rage has its limits.

Quote:
We keep it up for about 2 months guess what you will inevitably stop trying. The end result will be that when we eventually get around to invading each other (the 3 coalitions), we will compeltly **** over each others space and reset most of our sov, but you still wont be able to take it.


If it's not fun, that's true. If making you chase your tail cheaply is fun, well, people are going to want to have that fun. We'll have to see whether it's fun or not.

Quote:
All this does is remove the incentive for the big boys to fight when what you want is the big boys to spend so much time fighting each other that they don't have time to fight you the little guy. Phoebe ironically did the same thing. There have been no wars of significance since phoebe purely because of this.


I think B-R removed much of the incentive for the "big boys" to fight. Big boy fights got expensive. When I came back to the game I re-joined one of the "big boys" thinking they were going to head north for some "big boy fights". Did they? Nope. Headed south to kill some newbies in cruisers. Pass.
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#3584 - 2015-03-09 05:13:04 UTC
While there has been allot of talk about individual mechanics and changes that need to happen to specific ones. Can major changes still be made?

The post at http://massivelyop.net/2015/03/08/eve-evolved-sovereignty-2-0-needs-some-work/ points out the gaminess of the main event mechanic. While I agree with the gamy thought put forth in the post. The fact that timers still are a focal point just gives Null more of the same. Is that what we want.

While standardizing the capture mechanic would be nice I think it needs to go the other way. Each major structure needs a different type of capture mechanic so that more things can be going on and clash together in interesting combinations.

If I was going to spend more time in null I need isk source for new ships and something thet I can do that contributes to the area each time I log in that can be tracked so its not an issue to see who is helping the cause or not.

The current mechanics don't help those too issues.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
#3585 - 2015-03-09 05:24:06 UTC
Gus Machado wrote:
Free port is hilariously funny but good.

but the more i read this thread the more it resembles something i have seen before. The only difference being instead of having a ship circle a beacon in a plex killing npc to gain sov you have to activate an entosis link module on a sov based structure to do the same thing? and then for the second timer you get command nodes spread throughout the constellation (IE fw-plexes in different systems but the same constellation) and if the smaller entities do not fight now what makes you think they will fight after this change. lol we love content we crave content but ccp you give none of us incentive to keep sov. if you did you would see more fights because the invaders would want the benefits but right now this is turning into trolls online and its never going to get any better unless you give the smaller entities incentives to fight and the bigger sov holders incentives to stay and keep their sov truly this game will continue to degenerate into interceptors online. i mean why fly anything else.

that's my 2 cents at least.

ps:
overpowered/non-catch able/with bubble immunity "lol"---------the greatest ship eve created "interceptors"


Not empty quoting.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3586 - 2015-03-09 05:30:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
davet517 wrote:
I think B-R removed much of the incentive for the "big boys" to fight. Big boy fights got expensive. When I came back to the game I re-joined one of the "big boys" thinking they were going to head north for some "big boy fights". Did they? Nope. Headed south to kill some newbies in cruisers. Pass.

Ooh, did you join vince draken's horde hoping to end our 0.0 dream?

Well, you can do so with sovlasers soon enough, though instead of newbies in cruisers, you probably want some Heavy Assault Cruisers (Ishtar) or Strategic Cruisers (Tengu).

Or perhaps just interceptors, right?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#3587 - 2015-03-09 05:34:23 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Yeah, our downfall which was supposed to happen due to fatigue... didn't happen. So much for that huh.

But I'm sure this time, yes this time it will be different. sovlasers will finally end our 0.0 nightmare. You can do it guys! You have the power!! in your highslot module, the sovlaser will finally burn away the nightmare



To be fair, it was your alliance and others doing most of the crying. Thread after thread of EVE is dying/ quitting EVE/ unsubbing forever rants.

And now they're doing it again with this.

Seriously guys! You know you are not going anywhere. You'll adapt and keep on keepin' on. Like we all have at one time or another over the course of the many changes over the years.

Far be it from me, though, to suggest you stop and think things through before pounding keys. Not just null blocks, of course. Anyone who feels the game is ruined for whatever reason is current that week.

Half the reason I'm still subbed after eight years is the sheer entertainment I get from reading the rage from quitters that never actually quit.

Mr Epeen Cool

Nobody is upset because they think they'll be forced out of nullsec. They're upset because they believe the changes cheapen the game, and long-term are going to make things even less fun than they are now. That's why I and others in the null blocs were upset about Phoebe, and lo and behold that's what ended up happening.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3588 - 2015-03-09 05:40:19 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Yeah, our downfall which was supposed to happen due to fatigue... didn't happen. So much for that huh.

But I'm sure this time, yes this time it will be different. sovlasers will finally end our 0.0 nightmare. You can do it guys! You have the power!! in your highslot module, the sovlaser will finally burn away the nightmare



To be fair, it was your alliance and others doing most of the crying. Thread after thread of EVE is dying/ quitting EVE/ unsubbing forever rants.

And now they're doing it again with this.

Seriously guys! You know you are not going anywhere. You'll adapt and keep on keepin' on. Like we all have at one time or another over the course of the many changes over the years.

Far be it from me, though, to suggest you stop and think things through before pounding keys. Not just null blocks, of course. Anyone who feels the game is ruined for whatever reason is current that week.

Half the reason I'm still subbed after eight years is the sheer entertainment I get from reading the rage from quitters that never actually quit.

Mr Epeen Cool

Nobody is upset because they think they'll be forced out of nullsec. They're upset because they believe the changes cheapen the game, and long-term are going to make things even less fun than they are now. That's why I and others in the null blocs were upset about Phoebe, and lo and behold that's what ended up happening.

I'm just too fatigued to keep up with this...

Maybe after my posting fatigue has decayed a bit I will participate more.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ischie
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3589 - 2015-03-09 06:45:30 UTC
Thank you for taking bold steps to take EVE in a direction that is fresh and exciting. Please continue to resist the cries of people who would rather continue playing the same broken/stagnant way than try new things. Again, thanks for the bold, much needed moves.

The new sov system looks awesome fun!
Emmy Mnemonic
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#3590 - 2015-03-09 07:02:24 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Coalitions will die . . . or thrive.

Tears are being shed, or lapped up.

seriously, who cares? It comes down to the part of the dev blog everybody skimmed through. That first part where the goals were set out. NO WHERE in there was there any mention of the effect on specific alliances, coalitions, corps, or art appreciation societies.

Reminder of the Goals.

Quote:
Goal #1: As much as possible, ensure that the process of fighting over a star system is enjoyable and fascinating for all the players involved

Goal #2: Clarify the process of taking, holding and fighting over star systems

Goal #3: Minimize the systemic pressure to bring more people or larger ships than would be required to simply defeat your enemies on the field of battle.

Goal #4: Drastically reduce the time and effort required to conquer undefended space.

Goal #5: Provide significant strategic benefits from living in your space.

Goal #6: Spread the largest Sovereignty battles over multiple star systems to take advantage of New Eden’s varied geography and to better manage server load.

Goal #7: Any new Sovereignty system should be adaptable enough to be rapidly updated and to incorporate future changes to EVE.


So I am asking you. Do you think the GOALS were good ones or did you like the antithesis, Did you enjoy grinding structures, N+1 being the key to winning, all of which we have right now?

Does this plan address the goals properly?

m


They are all good goals! I like them a lot! But the suggested changes does not adress them good-enough.

But take #5 for example: what are the significant strategic benefits actually living in your space? Please explain!
CCP has the notion that ratting is what drives nullsec economy. It is not. It was always about them moons, and now, it will be even more about them moons! You don't need sov to control the moons, and you definately do not have to live in the moon-systems to control the moons! You still need the largest super/titan/capital-fleets and the largets supportfleets to control them though. Status quo.

#4 and #3 The notion of the trollceptors has been discussed in this thread, and CCP has hinted that they might do something to limit the Entosis-trolling-fleets if they become a problem - which they will be. Still, the alliance that can field more people and more fleets will win the capture game; If one side can field 5 fleets with a total of 500 people and the other can field 100 people in 2 fleets - who will win? That will not change really!

What WILL change is that alliances will not fight over sov; it's of no value. Ratters will move elsewhere and the income from ratting does not affect the alliances in the first place.

It's R64 incomes that will affect the alliances. Its R64:s that alliance will fight over.

So make sov have an impact on ALL incomes from nullsec space, not just ratting etc. Make sov have an impact on the yield of the R64/32/16 moons aswell! This would generate conflicts, serious conflicts.

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3591 - 2015-03-09 07:16:14 UTC
Emmy Mnemonic wrote:
So make sov have an impact on ALL incomes from nullsec space, not just ratting etc. Make sov have an impact on the yield of the R64/32/16 moons aswell! This would generate conflicts, serious conflicts.

So basically the lowsec moons PL has are safe from all the effects of sov ones. Also, NPC nullsec moons.

Hmm perhaps that would give them the advantage needed to end some sov nullsec people's 0.0 dream...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3592 - 2015-03-09 07:17:17 UTC
davet517 wrote:

I think B-R removed much of the incentive for the "big boys" to fight. Big boy fights got expensive. When I came back to the game I re-joined one of the "big boys" thinking they were going to head north for some "big boy fights". Did they? Nope. Headed south to kill some newbies in cruisers. Pass.

The "Big Boys" with the big toys love nothing more than blowing each other up but the current meta of "Eve in slow motion" has all but removed the ability for that to happen. (A very deliberate move on CCP's part)

Hence, they headed south, in cruisers to blow up cruisers. That is called playing to the meta, using the tools CCP provide to wreak havoc at every turn. (The fundamental part of eve - DESTRUCTION OF OTHERS)

Is it what we all want? No it isn't but we are in the current situation because;

People used up time complaining about - "Damned PL hot dropped us with 500 supers" - "BL wrecked our day with all their titans while we were harmlessly shooting one of their pos's 60LY away" - "Goons, well Goons just wrecked everything"


Now we are faced with getting landed with one of the biggest mistakes CCP has ever thought up - and you decide to whine about some nooby cruisers getting blown up.

- - - - - - - - -
Is it any wonder Eve is like it is.

I've done my share of writing in this thread and I know my ideas (gleaned from around 300 members of my corp and alliance) probably aren't the best but I do hope CCP at least considers them and some of the other ideas that have been put forward here.

The goals for the coming sov changes are very good - The plan of action to achieve them is not going to work in its current form.


My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Amyclas Amatin
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#3593 - 2015-03-09 07:35:41 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
davet517 wrote:

I think B-R removed much of the incentive for the "big boys" to fight. Big boy fights got expensive. When I came back to the game I re-joined one of the "big boys" thinking they were going to head north for some "big boy fights". Did they? Nope. Headed south to kill some newbies in cruisers. Pass.

The "Big Boys" with the big toys love nothing more than blowing each other up but the current meta of "Eve in slow motion" has all but removed the ability for that to happen. (A very deliberate move on CCP's part)

Hence, they headed south, in cruisers to blow up cruisers. That is called playing to the meta, using the tools CCP provide to wreak havoc at every turn. (The fundamental part of eve - DESTRUCTION OF OTHERS)

Is it what we all want? No it isn't but we are in the current situation because;

People used up time complaining about - "Damned PL hot dropped us with 500 supers" - "BL wrecked our day with all their titans while we were harmlessly shooting one of their pos's 60LY away" - "Goons, well Goons just wrecked everything"


Now we are faced with getting landed with one of the biggest mistakes CCP has ever thought up - and you decide to whine about some nooby cruisers getting blown up.

- - - - - - - - -
Is it any wonder Eve is like it is.

I've done my share of writing in this thread and I know my ideas (gleaned from around 300 members of my corp and alliance) probably aren't the best but I do hope CCP at least considers them and some of the other ideas that have been put forward here.

The goals for the coming sov changes are very good - The plan of action to achieve them is not going to work in its current form.




Whatever it is. We know the goons deserve it, don't we?

For more information on the New Order of High-Sec, please visit: http://www.minerbumping.com/

Remember that whenever you have a bad day in EVE, the correct reponse is "Thank you CCP, may I please have another?"
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3594 - 2015-03-09 07:36:16 UTC
Ischie wrote:
Thank you for taking bold steps to take EVE in a direction that is fresh and exciting. Please continue to resist the cries of people who would rather continue playing the same broken/stagnant way than try new things. Again, thanks for the bold, much needed moves.

The new sov system looks awesome fun!

You think the new sov mechanics look fun?
I fear for the future of Eve.

- - - - - - - - -
Mini games have NO place in sov wars.

"SOV WARS" is what it is called not bloody "reinforce the node", which sounds like it belongs in a kiddies game for 8 to 12 year olds.

How many nodes can you win in 4 hours - How many gold coins can Mario collect.
Anything seem familiar here?

Who in their right mind wants to spend 4 hours a day collecting gold coins, especially when collecting those gold coins 1 day only means you have to go collect the same ones again the next - An all new concept for Eve no-one ever expected, boredom and repetition with the odd killmail thrown in for good measure.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#3595 - 2015-03-09 07:39:23 UTC
Amyclas Amatin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
davet517 wrote:

I think B-R removed much of the incentive for the "big boys" to fight. Big boy fights got expensive. When I came back to the game I re-joined one of the "big boys" thinking they were going to head north for some "big boy fights". Did they? Nope. Headed south to kill some newbies in cruisers. Pass.

The "Big Boys" with the big toys love nothing more than blowing each other up but the current meta of "Eve in slow motion" has all but removed the ability for that to happen. (A very deliberate move on CCP's part)

Hence, they headed south, in cruisers to blow up cruisers. That is called playing to the meta, using the tools CCP provide to wreak havoc at every turn. (The fundamental part of eve - DESTRUCTION OF OTHERS)

Is it what we all want? No it isn't but we are in the current situation because;

People used up time complaining about - "Damned PL hot dropped us with 500 supers" - "BL wrecked our day with all their titans while we were harmlessly shooting one of their pos's 60LY away" - "Goons, well Goons just wrecked everything"


Now we are faced with getting landed with one of the biggest mistakes CCP has ever thought up - and you decide to whine about some nooby cruisers getting blown up.

- - - - - - - - -
Is it any wonder Eve is like it is.

I've done my share of writing in this thread and I know my ideas (gleaned from around 300 members of my corp and alliance) probably aren't the best but I do hope CCP at least considers them and some of the other ideas that have been put forward here.

The goals for the coming sov changes are very good - The plan of action to achieve them is not going to work in its current form.




Whatever it is. We know the goons deserve it, don't we?

As far as I'm concerned Goonies deserve nothing more and nothing less than everyone else who choose to make sov nul their home.
If my post came across as Goon bashing I apologize, that was not my intention.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3596 - 2015-03-09 07:47:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Ischie wrote:
The new sov system looks awesome fun!

You think the new sov mechanics look fun?
I fear for the future of Eve.

- - - - - - - - -
Mini games have NO place in sov wars.

"SOV WARS" is what it is called not bloody "reinforce the node", which sounds like it belongs in a kiddies game for 8 to 12 year olds.

How many nodes can you win in 4 hours - How many gold coins can Mario collect.
Anything seem familiar here?

Who in their right mind wants to spend 4 hours a day collecting gold coins, especially when collecting those gold coins 1 day only means you have to go collect the same ones again the next - An all new concept for Eve no-one ever expected, boredom and repetition with the odd killmail thrown in for good measure.

I admit the way we sov war now is called "reinforce the sov structure"

How many timers can you create in comparison to what the enemy can save.

Who in their right mind wants to spend 24 hours a day collecting timers, especially when collecting those timers means you have to go for a second timer usually...

An all new concept for Eve no-one ever expected, boredom and repetition with the odd** (sov structure) killmail thrown in for good measure.

**Though really SBU killmails are very common.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
flakeys
Doomheim
#3597 - 2015-03-09 07:48:49 UTC
Lupe Meza wrote:
Zakks wrote:
As a newer player (2months), I am ready to quit after my sub ends this month. There is no place for, how you say, 'scrubs' in this game. I have never seen such a sense of entitlement by a group of veteran players! Having read some of this topic has done nothing to change my thoughts. This game will die, because of your status quo thinking, unless the game developers flip you the bird and shake things up. I mean really change it big time. But you will cry and moan about it, and then try and destroy it for everyone. Because you can.

So come and wreck my game, if that what gets your jollies.
You really should be ashamed.


I wouldn't take all the bluster too seriously. It is just the usual propaganda. Whenever vets say "think of the new players" just automatically roll your eyes. "Who wants to live in null"? "Who even wants sov now". "We'll destroy high sec". Yadda yadda.

CCP is clearly striving to make a product that is inclusive and not merely a playground for 10 year players or mega coalitions; but one for people that want to play a sandbox game like this but can't devote 8 hours a day to a video game because they have no lif....er, I mean are super successful IRL and have oodles of cash and free time on hand so playing from their yachts all day is no problem.

Any good MMO that is around a while should always remember the people that put them in the position they are in and stuck with them. But never to the point where it becomes catering to self serving rhetoric and entitlement that is to the detriment of the product. Maybe take a look in a year or so and see how the landscape and culture shifts if at all. I'd encourage you to give it another shot though.



Thing is , most of those vets you and others are complaining about are not even the old day vets like me but the kind that came in halfway of eve's lifecycle and they tend to behave like lill bratts who can only see a change for the good when it benefits THEIR gameplay.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#3598 - 2015-03-09 07:50:26 UTC
Let's just go back to the days of remote aoe doomsday titans

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3599 - 2015-03-09 08:03:09 UTC
I would like to change my mind on this subject.

I am actually for these sov changes. After havent listend to podcast from Crosiing Zebra(Grath and PGL) and the meta show with Mittnes and Co. + PGL. I actually support the changes.

My hope is that CCP will expand the on the whole empire building and allow players to customize their sov to suit their needs.
Make the space feel like your home.

In regards to the super nerf, which Fozzie talked about at EVE Down under, they are not set in stone yeat, but it is about time that CCP got rid of the supers and titans, which they said themself they should have done years ago. Perhaps it was also time to remove the carriers ability to carry fighters and drones? (Disclaimer Aeon owner)

Stations are in the same bad place as supers and titans. Atm 42% of all 0.0 systems has a station. It is about time that stations was made destructible. Just have their content sent to the nearest NPC station, or leave a wreck that expires after a year, so ppl can pickup their ****.

Stargates should also be player build and destructible by players.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#3600 - 2015-03-09 08:27:00 UTC
Drogo Drogos wrote:
playerbuild module in space: "Status Effect module" This module can set to an effect to give positive or negative effects for fleets entering your sov, this forces enemy to fight your style and your doctrines with buffs, failure to fight in the ships the sov holder enforces gives your fleet a great disadvantage as in wormholes.

Smaller entitys can now force attackers to weird ship doctrines were the defender has trained for and are far more expirienced in then the attackers.


That's literally the worst idea I've EVER READ on these forums.

EVER.

Well played, well played.