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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2941 - 2015-03-06 08:17:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

But here' the thing none of you are getting...1 man isn't going to reinforce any sov...unless it's unoccupied.


Yeah, they can, because it takes a mere 2 minutes and people have to sleep and eat and use the bathroom. If someone lives in a system, it is not "unoccupied" just because they have to sleep.

Why do you think that owning sov should be a job, instead of a videogame?




Ugh

In the new Sovereignty system, each alliance will designate a four hour window through a new option available in the Corporation Management window to certain members of the alliance executor corp. This period will represent the alliance’s declared prime time, and will be visible in the show info window for the alliance and in the show info window for each Sovereignty structure belonging to that alliance.

When an alliance changes their prime time window, their new choice will not take effect until after 96 hours have passed. At the end of this 96 hour waiting period all the structures belonging to that alliance will be vulnerable twice in the same 24 hour period (one in the old window and once in the new one). The new setting will then take effect and become the new daily vulnerability window.

This will determine the time period within which all Sovereignty structures belonging to that alliance are vulnerable to be reinforced, and the time period within which the exit time of all reinforcement periods for that alliance’s Sovereignty structures will be randomly selected. All Sovereignty structures belonging to the alliance will become vulnerable to be reinforced during that same four hour period every day, except for days when those structures are in the middle of a reinforcement period.

This allows alliances to ensure that they can defend their structures both from initial attacks and in subsequent Capture Events through active combat in their most important time zone. The fact that all structures belonging to the same alliance will be vulnerable during the same period of time allows more localized attackers to receive an advantage over a more widely spread defender since the defender will need to respond to attacks anywhere in their territory.

During the vulnerability period any character can activate an Entosis Link on the Sovereignty structures to begin the process of reinforcing it. Once the first cycle of the Entosis Link completes and the capture progress begins the Alliance who owns the structure will be notified of the attack and will need to respond in order to prevent the attackers from reinforcing the structure.

Reinforcing a Sovereignty structure with the Entosis Link will take anywhere between 10 minutes and 40 minutes of uncontested capture, depending on the level of occupancy defense bonuses in the system. If the attackers are successful in completing the capture progress, the structure will pick a random time within the same prime time window two days later, and enter reinforced mode until then.

If a structure is partially captured at the end of the vulnerability window, it will remain vulnerable until it is either captured and enters reinforced mode or is returned to full owner control by the owning alliance using their own Entosis links.

Although reinforcing of Sovereignty structures may only occur during the owning alliance’s prime time window, station services can be disabled at any time through use of the Entosis Link for between 5 and 20 minutes (depending on occupancy levels).
Cleanse Serce
Lonesome Capsuleer
#2942 - 2015-03-06 08:18:57 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
Isn't it so like this current playerbase to point the finger at the mod and completely overlook the greater dynamics this new SOV change will bring? Why is this? The new mod itself is little more than a pointing finger. The discussion is all about sawing off the pointing finger, or keeping the pointing finger from being sawed off, or why can just anybody point the finger? None of it is a lively discussion about how this change will affect two things that have plagued the majority of New Eden for years - blue blobs and blue donuts. Under Band of Brothers, a huge section of the map was in stasis forcing players onto a small section of null sec space. Under the Blue Donut, all that happens in null sec is people rent from other people.

The majority of items in the game just aren't being used, and in both instances of "natural" game play, the "natural" result seems to be (once again) freezing up the majority of New Eden. This certainly isn't gameplay. DIddling around with one or two elements without pulling the entirety of EVE's features into play isn't gameplay either. It's diddling around. At last with this new approach there's a significant potential to pull EVE into the game of EVE. People who are focusing on the mod, and trying to find ways to circumvent things like downtime visa vis prime time will miss the boat entirely. People, and CEOs/Alliance leaderships that focus on all the aspects of the game - the development of systems, the sovereignty panel, the many and varied skills of the group now disparagingly called "carebears" WILL WIN.

So, yes. Do continue your bogged down in minutia discussion of the module, and how someone might circumvent the intended with the clever. However, understand in so doing you're demonstrating how little you've bothered to learn about the wider game of EVE. It's like obsessing on the queen's hair-do and not developing a strong pawn game. And, as anyone who knows chess will tell you, the game is won with the pawn game, not the queen.

I look forward to seeing the hindparts of The Blue Donut as it disappears over the horizon looking for another game to smother. I'm even looking forward to seeing the departure of people whose imaginations and true strategic abilities only amount to that. I'm going to enjoy ganking becoming an annoyance (as it rightly is) and emergent gameplay suddenly becoming playing EVE again!

I appreciate everyone's effort to support our game through this forum. I only suggest those who are fixated on a module try expanding your understanding of this game we play by taking a look at the map, and the other panels that seem to never get used. They are going to be the central focus of the game now - as it should be.

"The battle is won before it is fought." -Sun Tzu's way of saying "know what you're doing."-


Well Excuse our narrow-mindedness Sir.

But i believe that before we got to band over the question "WHY" would a group of player want to live in NullSec, we must answer the question "HOW".
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2943 - 2015-03-06 08:19:51 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
baltec1 wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
a) nobody puts a small tower on a r64 moon
b) siphons
c) every line members gets in touch with it, it's called SRP - ever seen the SRP bills of alliances?
d) if it's so much isk, why do alliances rent out space?

It's not like there are 4 trillion of ISKs flowing into the pockets of 1 guy. It's divided up between lowsec/nullsec entities, fought over, needs to be transported, manufactured, etc.

Yes, it's a lot of isks but considering how many hands it's running through and the monthy upkeep + strategic/logistic work done... not that great. If you feel like it, go take a hit at a lowsec r64 and check for yourself how much fun it is to have one!

Oh I'm fully aware of this, I just needed a rough figure to bounce around when people are saying that nullsec is so poor at the moment. I mean the 4T across the whole of New Eden is a definite lowball estimate if you check the coverage percentages on dotlan as well. I'm not saying it's all going into Mittens pockets directly buuuut I'm also quite sure he doesn't do much afktar-ing either when he needs a new ship to whelp.

As I say, it's top down income - would be far more interesting to have industry guys actively mining that stuff and have a bottom up process.


I don't get any of it.



*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.HOWEVER it cannot be ignored as it is a massive source of NULL income, even if the only way people see it is in SRP.

Ignoring moon goo is like ignoring LPs in high sec.

Also, null PI isn't too shabby.


Point being - I've no problem with a null income rebalance - but it might not go quite the way we expect (or hope).
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#2944 - 2015-03-06 08:21:18 UTC
Lurifax wrote:
Thats a nice ihub you got there. Would be a shame if you lost it.

We dont even have to manage rentel empires any more. We just have to sit in NPC space and send out mails.

Congratulations. You finally mastered the proper way of renting out space.

That's how stain guys were operating a couple of years ago. They made renters around stain pay monthly ransoms to be left alone.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2945 - 2015-03-06 08:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Well, missed that part. (God, their layout for that sucks) That's better than I had realized, although still not ideal.

It still mandates babysitting your structures when you should be out using your space and doing things.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
#2946 - 2015-03-06 08:24:45 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Vigilanta wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

Tell me which ship you have in your hanger that has a lock range of 250 that you envision will be doing these sort of deep territory sov sapping missions.


I didn't say that was my plan. My position is that any distance longer than about 40km is too large.

The most major issue is with the cycle time. Structure grinding set the bar rather too high to take a crack at owning sov. But a 2 minute cycle time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar entirely too low.


Pretty much, as currently proposed were are talking about an endeavor in ritual sucide not an endeavor of living or not living in your sov. Aside from the fact that systems should be potentially vulnerable during all timezone, not just a window, as i have said earlier i think some form of the SBU mechanic to induce vulnerability is appropriate. Reinforcing a system should require a fleet, it shouldn't be a task that is capable of being performed by 1 man or even 5 dudes. To own sov you shouldn't need to babysit your assets 24 hours a day, or even 4 hours a day, there needs to be effort expended by the attacker, organized effort at that. 1 dude in an small hull be it bc or frigate shouldn't be capable of reinforcing a system. If the goal is to encourage pvp the current mechanics proposed do not do that, they do however encourage heavy harassment until no one can be arsed to defend sov.

I think the entosis module and time duration rather than hitpoints is good. I think id get rid of the no remote reps bit, and instead require you use 10-20 of them in order to reinforce. The smallest alliance can muster this man power, any sov holding entity or sov aspiring entity should be able to manage these range of numbers. This creates a relatively low barrier to entry, undefended sov will still fall quickly, but it requires an actual fleet and should limit the more asinine forms of useless harassment. Couple this with some sort of low hitpoint fast time vulnerability mechanic reminiscent of the SBU and I think we are well on our way to a better version of the proposed system. Taking sov shouldnt be easy mode nor should defending. Dominion favored the defender a bit to much, this favors the attacker to much. There is a happy middle in there.

A periphery is there should really be a roll for Dreads/supers and carriers in this system as at current there really isnt any other than to plop them on a command node to ensure you control at least one while your subs go to others.



But here' the thing none of you are getting...1 man isn't going to reinforce any sov...unless it's unoccupied. This only works if these systems are unoccupied in which case, yeah 1 guy should RF them easy. But if people actually OCCUPY the system, it's reasonable to assume there's at least 2 or 3 guys in that staion willing to undock and kill the 1 attacker. So the attacker will have to escalate...to larger fleet, which will make the defender form a larger fleet.

So this idea that lone ceptors are going to go around destroying everything in 0.0 is complete non sense void of any forethought, logic or reasoning.


I want 24 hour vulnerability, your never going to have say an allaince ownign 30 systems have everyone of them occupied all 24 hours of a day, hell even in primetime you wont have all 30 occupied. And for a large nullsec alliance 30 systems owned should be a reasonable number to hold under any sov system. If you make it less than that then there will be no fighting in nullsec because ther eowuld be to many systems and not enough people
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2947 - 2015-03-06 08:25:27 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The Dev Blog you obviously didn't read wrote:

Entosis Links have a significant cycle time (5 minutes for the Tech One variant, 2 minutes for Tech Two) and do not start affecting the battle for control of the target structure until the end of their first cycle.


That means all you have to do is finish a 2 minute cycle while they're asleep or on the can, and it's done.


Lol, dude....
You REALLY might want to read the dev blog yourself before ranting over people to read the dev blog.
Hint: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66967/1/OccupancyExamples.jpg

Also the text you quoted doesn't say that you can RF something in 2 minutes. Just that it takes a minimum of 2(5) minutes to make any progress towards RFing something.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2948 - 2015-03-06 08:27:49 UTC
Here is the thing which is pretty evident to me and which has got some people riled up, the IHUB will be number 1 target as part of economic warfare that is obvious. Without any doubt this will reduce the value of null sec which is why stage 3 is very important indeed, CCP needs to bear this in mind and adjust accordingly.

I spoke to 3 ex-players yesterday about this change, 2 have now re-subbed and the 3rd will be doing so soon, they are talking to other ex-players, they are looking forward to the small fights that they enjoyed so much coming back to Eve.

I am sorry that I posted so much in this thread, but I wanted to make sure that small entity voices would be heard in this to counter some of the misconceptions branded around, trollceptors being one.

Smaller groups want to own a system or two, they want small fun fights around that system, they want to be able to make ISk from that system to fund the PvP, they don't want to be easily steam rolled by supers and titans, they want a way to resist.

The large coalitions have got there through sheer effort, but in doing so they have reduced the fun for many in the game, I personally do not see this as the end of coalitions, just a new chapter, as far as I am concerned the Goons will continue to be strong, the CFC may or may not diminish, I see no reason why it should. What will be exciting is lots of small entities popping up all of the place creating content and that should excite people.

People are hung up on mechanics, well let me point out that you have to take the rough with the smooth, I was having fun opposing freighter ganks, the gankers use game mechanics to scoop the loot, its clever and effective and evades suspect responsibility, I looked at the mechanic, understood why CCP could not do anything about it and moved on, no beef on my side except stating that Eve is not so dark and cold for gankers, but the conflict around those events is more important than the mechanics, they have an advantage, should I cry myself to sleep or just shrug and get on with it and blow up the wreck with a ganker alt instead, you see what I am getting at.

Stop moaning grid your loins and give it a go, you might even have fun, perish the thought.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2949 - 2015-03-06 08:28:02 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:

Lol, dude....
You REALLY might want to read the dev blog yourself before ranting over people to read the dev blog.


They already corrected me on that, but thanks. It's still a lousy system that makes you babysit structures when you should be actually using your space instead, thanks to the ridiculously low cycle time.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2950 - 2015-03-06 08:28:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Well, missed that part. (God, their layout for that sucks) That's better than I had realized, although still not ideal.

It still mandates babysitting your structures when you should be out using your space and doing things.


It mandates living in your system. You should be using the very system which the enemy may want to take from you. It makes small roaming gangs meaningful. Now you can get in a fleet with 10 of your buddies and have an impact, either as a patrol or an attacker.

I'm also relieved that it isn't in fact too late for me and that apparently I'm the one that can read. Blink
nossler
Project ELT
#2951 - 2015-03-06 08:29:04 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The Dev Blog you obviously didn't read wrote:

Entosis Links have a significant cycle time (5 minutes for the Tech One variant, 2 minutes for Tech Two) and do not start affecting the battle for control of the target structure until the end of their first cycle.


That means all you have to do is finish a 2 minute cycle while they're asleep or on the can, and it's done.


Lol, dude....
You REALLY might want to read the dev blog yourself before ranting over people to read the dev blog.
Hint: http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/66967/1/OccupancyExamples.jpg

Also the text you quoted doesn't say that you can RF something in 2 minutes. Just that it takes a minimum of 2(5) minutes to make any progress towards RFing something.




So reading comprehension is no longer taught in school then??
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2952 - 2015-03-06 08:31:04 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

It mandates living in your system.


Your worthless, truesec system with an income below that of L4 missions...

Quote:

I'm also relieved that it isn't in fact too late for me and that apparently I'm the one that can read. Blink


But I can blame mine on the ****** mobile layout they have for that dev blog. Genuinely atrocious, but that's what I get for posting from my phone.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
#2953 - 2015-03-06 08:33:31 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

It mandates living in your system.


Your worthless, truesec system with an income below that of L4 missions...

Quote:

I'm also relieved that it isn't in fact too late for me and that apparently I'm the one that can read. Blink


But I can blame mine on the ****** mobile layout they have for that dev blog. Genuinely atrocious, but that's what I get for posting from my phone.


Me agreeing with a member of code, the only organization that i dislike more than the CFC, hell has frozen over.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2954 - 2015-03-06 08:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
nossler wrote:


So reading comprehension is no longer taught in school then??


That depends, at least in regards to this part.

Quote:

Also the text you quoted doesn't say that you can RF something in 2 minutes. Just that it takes a minimum of 2(5) minutes to make any progress towards RFing something.


Because it sure looks like it does.

Quote:
exerting uncontested control over Territorial Claim Units, Infrastructure Hubs and Outposts will take 10 minutes (plus the duration of the first cycle)


So, pop the first cycle, leave, if it's not contested again in ten minutes, it's reinforced. Unless that sentence means that you have to cycle the whole thing for that time, which if that's the case, they should just say that then. Because the flowchart suggests that you have to do it once, and that the other timer is for the defender to respond with a contesting Entosis cycle.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2955 - 2015-03-06 08:37:20 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

It mandates living in your system.


Your worthless, truesec system with an income below that of L4 missions...

Quote:

I'm also relieved that it isn't in fact too late for me and that apparently I'm the one that can read. Blink


But I can blame mine on the ****** mobile layout they have for that dev blog. Genuinely atrocious, but that's what I get for posting from my phone.



If truesec is so worthless, nobody would be living in them. At this point you've shown that you're having...ahem...phone troubles so reading is out of the question yet you are insisting on your poorly thought of concepts concerning the mechanic even though you've been proven wrong on every account.

Do yourself a favor, apologize for rudely and hypocritically accusing others of not being able to read, and come look at this thread in 3 days after you've read the devblog a few times.
Vigilanta
S0utherN Comfort
#2956 - 2015-03-06 08:37:32 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Quote:
exerting uncontested control over Territorial Claim Units, Infrastructure Hubs and Outposts will take 10 minutes (plus the duration of the first cycle)


So, pop the first cycle, leave, if it's not contested again in ten minutes, it's reinforced.


There are occumpancy modifiers for strategic, military and industry levels that can increase that timer, so systems that are well used will take vastly longer, but the more strategic systems for jbs and beacons will be closer to 10 minutes.

TBH, i think industry jobs i.e. the amount of building going on tin the system shoudl help modify the industrial index, or cretate a 4th index for industry jobs. Creates another way for an attacker to choose what systems to harass AND creates another modifier on sov timers.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2957 - 2015-03-06 08:38:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

Tell me which ship you have in your hanger that has a lock range of 250 that you envision will be doing these sort of deep territory sov sapping missions.


I didn't say that was my plan. My position is that any distance longer than about 40km is too large.

The most major issue is with the cycle time. Structure grinding set the bar rather too high to take a crack at owning sov. But a 2 minute cycle time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar entirely too low.



For the nth time.

Its a 2 minute cycle time to START the process.

It is a minimum of 12 minutes, in a completely neglected, unused system to RF things. That gives the owners a minimum of 10 minutes to get a SINGLE ship on grid and block you.

Stop spewing the garbage that you can RF anything in 2 minutes. It is a flat out fabrication.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2958 - 2015-03-06 08:39:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Yeah, they can, because it takes a mere 2 minutes and people have to sleep and eat and use the bathroom. If someone lives in a system, it is not "unoccupied" just because they have to sleep.

If they have to sleep during their declared prime time, you've got to ask them some interesting questions.


You. Can. Reinforce. The. Structure. At. Any. Time.



No. You. Cant.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2959 - 2015-03-06 08:40:23 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Yeah, they can, because it takes a mere 2 minutes and people have to sleep and eat and use the bathroom. If someone lives in a system, it is not "unoccupied" just because they have to sleep.

If they have to sleep during their declared prime time, you've got to ask them some interesting questions.


You. Can. Reinforce. The. Structure. At. Any. Time.



No. You. Cant.


Already pointed out, thanks.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#2960 - 2015-03-06 08:42:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

So, pop the first cycle, leave, if it's not contested again in ten minutes, it's reinforced. Unless that sentence means that you have to cycle the whole thing for that time, which if that's the case, they should just say that then. Because the flowchart suggests that you have to do it once, and that the other timer is for the defender to respond with a contesting Entosis cycle.

As far as I understand, The Module has a 2 minute spool up time after which it starts affecting the timer. So each time you enter the grid you have to spend at least 2 minutes on grid to start affecting the timer. If you leave the grid, the timer stops. If you return, you need to spool up for 2 minutes again.

Now if there are two of you and one leaves, the other one continues to spin the timer, but if you return, activate the module and your buddy leaves immediately, the timer stops until your personal spin up timer passes. So you can't do a rewarp relay race, and each and every person willing to affect the timer HAS to spend at least 2 minutes on grid.