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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2901 - 2015-03-06 07:02:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Mike Azariah wrote:
oh and some stats for you, make of them what you will


Apparently CODEdot is all worked up about SOV.

Edit: Figured it out P

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2902 - 2015-03-06 07:05:07 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Mike Azariah wrote:
oh and some stats for you, make of them what you will


Apparently CODEdot is all worked up about SOV.




Did this beat the JF thread?

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#2903 - 2015-03-06 07:07:12 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

Primary This Rifter wrote:

Why should we defend our sov?
Why should anyone defend their sov?


Another question: Would anyone shed any tears if you dropped sov tomorrow? Not one.

The problem isn't whether you want to keep sov or not. There is no 30,000-foot reason to give you any motivation to keep sov. The rest of us don't care, and CCP could care even less. The question is why would someone expend the effort to come take it from you? The motivation to take it would be the so-called activity that CCP is trying to tease out.

The problem is, this motivation isn't there. Why would someone rob you of something with less value than WH or a Saturday afternoon in hisec?

You basically just rephrased my question. We're both arguing for the same thing.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2904 - 2015-03-06 07:12:03 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:

You basically just rephrased my question. We're both arguing for the same thing.


Yes. I'm just saying that people will draw the wrong conclusions when looking at your Alliance tag and the way you've phrased it.

Your argument is good. I understood it.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2905 - 2015-03-06 07:12:34 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Wow, I caught up.

OK, few points I have taken away so far.

1) People will use this to troll or aggravate other groups . . . like they don't right now?

2) Sov needs to have value. Agreed but if we gave it value before we changed how it changed hands you would be grinding structures again. I was under the impression most folks hated grinding structures.

3) Goons will ruin everything. How is that different from any other point in the past few years. The do because they like to.

4) Fozzie will be splitting some key points into separate threads. Great, so we can tick these down one at a time.

6) Mike hates OCD folks, anarchist

7) I was and am in favour of the overall ideas presented. I said that often and before I waded into this morass of a threadnaught. If you want other CSM's personal opinions, ask them. Maybe they will tell you the truth as well. Maybe.

8) I am amazed at some of the fits you guys been throwing about for a module not yet described except in vaguest terms but I really want you to focus on the key thing . . . no outside help for the entosis ship while in cycle. Vulnerable is the key.

9) I am amazed none of you realized that intel and cloaky camping will have a new purpose. Watching local to see if and when nobody is home during prime time. Or when the defense force tends to be lax.

10) All night shops are open 24 hours a day by rotating their staff. A large multi-timezone organization could do the same for the prime time to make things interesting for different parts of its membership.

11) If I were an Aussie alliance I would hire mercs to drag a late night prime time over to my slot so we could finish it off. Remember prime time is when the battle has to start, not end.

but what do I know? I am just a hisec carebear and hell yes I will be on a ganked roam with RvB when they take out ships to knock over undefended sovs.

Looking forward to the single out threads

oh and some stats for you, make of them what you will

m



Actually on point 3 we couldn't ruin everything before, there were limits imposed by timers and EHP. Now we can conceivably make every sov-null system outside of the homeland burn in the space of a month.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#2906 - 2015-03-06 07:17:40 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Ereilian wrote:
Unused space is unused for a reason, it is bolloxs. The Anom nerf made most -0.5 space pointless to occupy [I will add a rider here, yes you can still mine]. If anything I am certain the superblobs would LOVE fresh meat to take these systems ... more Brave newbies to farm.


The primary difference in this particular aspect of null is that people living in this space won't have to rent anymore. The cost of taking and holding sov in a system NO ONE ELSE WANTS TO LIVE IN will now be basically free. It only becomes expensive to defend sov if someone wants to actually evict you and LIVE THERE, not just if they are passing through burning everything in sight. Basically, WH life in null.


I have to point out that ihub set up for proper farming of the system takes 2 regular freighterfuls (ihub + lev 5 military) and ~2 bil. Ignoring the nonessential upgrades like mining, exploration and WH's. So for a small group just wanting to carve out a piece of the space for themselves it would be an issue if someone comes every few days and burns their infrastructure to the ground.

So there will be still some renters who will, most likely, be required to prevent troll-ceptors from creating timers and who are paying for a batphone right in the case of "serious" invasion.

In addition I expect to see a new kind of "renter" which would be just a bit twisted current "pet" - a groups competent enough could be offered by major coalitions a "rental spot" without isk payment in exchange of them policing the area around their home system in, lets say, 5j radius.

Individual renters would also try to do "politics" by arranging some kind of pact between neigbouring corporations to have few warm bodies 1-2j out who are able to repond in time for the call to arms to have enough numbers to dare to engage 1-3 interceptors.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2907 - 2015-03-06 07:25:19 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:

What else is there?


Don't even try a false dichotomy.

There are more alternatives to sov warfare than grinding structures endlessly and having to babysit each and every structure forever.

The 2 minute cycle time is too short, can be done at too long of a distance, and if it's available to frigates it does not give the defender any ability to respond to a pre-reinforced attack short of sitting on that structure literally all the time.

That is not an acceptable solution.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Thorn Galen
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#2908 - 2015-03-06 07:27:06 UTC
Literally Space Moses wrote:
You made sov harder to hold (good) but didn't give any additional incentive to actually hold it (very bad),

Seriously, you keep giving nullsec the stick, when is the carrot going to come?


Yep, +1. Same thoughts here.

COO - Bene Gesserit Chapterhouse  CEO - Sanctuary Pact Alliance
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2909 - 2015-03-06 07:30:09 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:

What else is there?


Don't even try a false dichotomy.

There are more alternatives to sov warfare than grinding structures endlessly and having to babysit each and every structure forever.

The 2 minute cycle time is too short, can be done at too long of a distance, and if it's available to frigates it does not give the defender any ability to respond to a pre-reinforced attack short of sitting on that structure literally all the time.

That is not an acceptable solution.


At what distance would this be happening?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2910 - 2015-03-06 07:36:09 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:

What else is there?


Don't even try a false dichotomy.

There are more alternatives to sov warfare than grinding structures endlessly and having to babysit each and every structure forever.

The 2 minute cycle time is too short, can be done at too long of a distance, and if it's available to frigates it does not give the defender any ability to respond to a pre-reinforced attack short of sitting on that structure literally all the time.

That is not an acceptable solution.


At what distance would this be happening?


The module has a range of 250km. So any distance you feel like, or more accurately any distance you can get out of your choice of capture ship.

It makes actually trying to kill them an unviable option(although you can still sensor damp them), which means that you default to sitting on the button yourself with your own Entosis link until the lone attacker gets bored and leaves.

The tiny cycle time also opens up the floodgates for using a cov ops ship to ninja cap structures should the system be left alone even for a few moments.

Both mechanics combine to basically necessitate having people sit on structures nigh constantly, unless they want to come back every half hour to un-reinforce their structure. (which means they're "defending" their sov, but never using it)

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2911 - 2015-03-06 07:39:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:

What else is there?


Don't even try a false dichotomy.

There are more alternatives to sov warfare than grinding structures endlessly and having to babysit each and every structure forever.

The 2 minute cycle time is too short, can be done at too long of a distance, and if it's available to frigates it does not give the defender any ability to respond to a pre-reinforced attack short of sitting on that structure literally all the time.

That is not an acceptable solution.



It isn't a false dichotomy, in this video game there are only two ways that a player or group of players can capture something and in fact there is only one. Timers and counters and timers are just counters that count seconds.

I am not arguing that the cycle time is too short or distance is too long or even that frigates are a bad choice. My point is that there are two types of mechanics that can be manipulated, counted interactions with something or counted seconds. Pick one or both but those are the two options.

We either shoot structures or grind time. The two minute timer may be too short but it is much better than the timers and counters we have now and a vigilant, well organized sov holding corp should see a group coming unless they use a frig hole and then when local spikes they should undock and be active. The rules suck but they have to work with what is available.

In reality we can't hell camp them because of jump clones.
We can kill their army but they just spawn in a station.
We can break the bank or cut off supply lines or any other thing that keeps them from doing something.

Timers and counters are the only way to do it and it has to be accessible to everyone or we are back to the problem we're in now.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2912 - 2015-03-06 07:39:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:

What else is there?


Don't even try a false dichotomy.

There are more alternatives to sov warfare than grinding structures endlessly and having to babysit each and every structure forever.

The 2 minute cycle time is too short, can be done at too long of a distance, and if it's available to frigates it does not give the defender any ability to respond to a pre-reinforced attack short of sitting on that structure literally all the time.

That is not an acceptable solution.


At what distance would this be happening?


The module has a range of 250km. So any distance you feel like, or more accurately any distance you can get out of your choice of capture ship.

It makes actually trying to kill them an unviable option(although you can still sensor damp them), which means that you default to sitting on the button yourself with your own Entosis link until the lone attacker gets bored and leaves.

The tiny cycle time also opens up the floodgates for using a cov ops ship to ninja cap structures should the system be left alone even for a few moments.

Both mechanics combine to basically necessitate having people sit on structures nigh constantly, unless they want to come back every half hour to un-reinforce their structure. (which means they're "defending" their sov, but never using it)



Tell me which ship you have in your hanger that has a lock range of 250 that you envision will be doing these sort of deep territory sov sapping missions.
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#2913 - 2015-03-06 07:42:26 UTC
Seriously. No halitosis from T2 or T3 hulls. Forcing attackers to use something (any size from frigate to titan) that has none of the advanced tech gimmicks like bubble immunity and/or warping cloaked would be breath of fresh air. Fitting exclusive to T1 hulls only.

Attackers would be welcome to bring Ishtars and Confessors and Maledictions etc to smash/disperse gatecamps en route and/or murder defenders at the structure while the dedicated HalitOrthruses or Cynabals or Atrons do their thing but the module would remain exclusive to T1 hulls (faction, pirate or vanilla). T1 of all sizes are quite capable hulls with tons of variety among them and it's not like they're toothless and can't fight off defenders with the rest of their gang while they keep the sovthing locked, they just don't have the troublesome hull bonuses that many T2 and T3 hulls have.

They'd do just fine for the purpose of lasering sovs for 2-5 minutes.

So why not? Why must T2 and T3 be allowed to fit the module? Will sov stagnate eternally if they cant?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2914 - 2015-03-06 07:43:48 UTC
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

Tell me which ship you have in your hanger that has a lock range of 250 that you envision will be doing these sort of deep territory sov sapping missions.


I didn't say that was my plan. My position is that any distance longer than about 40km is too large.

The most major issue is with the cycle time. Structure grinding set the bar rather too high to take a crack at owning sov. But a 2 minute cycle time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar entirely too low.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2915 - 2015-03-06 07:44:53 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:

Tell me which ship you have in your hanger that has a lock range of 250 that you envision will be doing these sort of deep territory sov sapping missions.


I didn't say that was my plan. My position is that any distance longer than about 40km is too large.

The most major issue is with the cycle time. Structure grinding set the bar rather too high to take a crack at owning sov. But a 2 minute cycle time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar entirely too low.



Why is it too large? What exactly is stopping you as a defender from killing the target ship?

(BTW you dont have to defend 24 7...only 4 hours in your prime time of choosing.)
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2916 - 2015-03-06 07:44:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Seraph IX Basarab wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:

What else is there?


Don't even try a false dichotomy.

There are more alternatives to sov warfare than grinding structures endlessly and having to babysit each and every structure forever.

The 2 minute cycle time is too short, can be done at too long of a distance, and if it's available to frigates it does not give the defender any ability to respond to a pre-reinforced attack short of sitting on that structure literally all the time.

That is not an acceptable solution.


At what distance would this be happening?


The module has a range of 250km. So any distance you feel like, or more accurately any distance you can get out of your choice of capture ship.

It makes actually trying to kill them an unviable option(although you can still sensor damp them), which means that you default to sitting on the button yourself with your own Entosis link until the lone attacker gets bored and leaves.

The tiny cycle time also opens up the floodgates for using a cov ops ship to ninja cap structures should the system be left alone even for a few moments.

Both mechanics combine to basically necessitate having people sit on structures nigh constantly, unless they want to come back every half hour to un-reinforce their structure. (which means they're "defending" their sov, but never using it)



I still think a deployable would almost be a better choice, it would be an ISK sink (somewhat), it would be easy to destroy and would stop frigates from jumping system to system just RFing things without major risk. Make the deployable scoopable by the attacker or defender.

Why not have both a deployable that does it in 3 minutes and a module that takes 5. 75km range.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#2917 - 2015-03-06 07:44:59 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

The 2 minute cycle time is too short, can be done at too long of a distance, and if it's available to frigates it does not give the defender any ability to respond to a pre-reinforced attack short of sitting on that structure literally all the time.

It's not a 2 minute cycle time to cap a structure. It's a 2 minute cycle time to start capturing it. Which is, IMO, is good idea, because if you only want to use the entosis link to force defenders to undock and get a fight, you don't have to spend half an hour for that.

The question is, how long is the actual capture time. If it's about half an hour, the defender actively living in the same constellation (which seems to be the intent behind the proposed system) has all the time to pull out his own trollceptor, and block your capture until he can form up a proper defence fleet to clear out the ninjas (and no, it's not as impossible as some people running in little circles waving their hands and shouting make it out to seem).
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2918 - 2015-03-06 07:46:12 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:

Timers and counters are the only way to do it and it has to be accessible to everyone or we are back to the problem we're in now.


And like I said above. Setting the bar at 2 minutes of time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar too low.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#2919 - 2015-03-06 07:46:57 UTC
Devi Loches wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Devi Loches wrote:
The Entosis trolling will be insane if put into effect right now. Speed tanking will be the best defense with them, especially since any cap ships trying to use them will just get piled on since it takes so long for them. The Entosis needs an effect like siege and triage mods that force the ship to remain stationary, or at least a huge movement penalty.

Also, in many ways this makes Dreads only useful for POS grinding and anti-carrier ops. Carriers can at least triage and support with fighters, but Dreads, and in some ways Titans, are almost obsolete. I always saw dreads as the ultimate structure grinder, but if that doesn't happen anymore, what's the use of them?

Speed tanking at 120km doesn't work so well because your angular velocity drops as you get further from the origin.

These 5km/s trollceptors orbitting at 120km are only moving around the central point at

5/120x2 = 0.02 rad/s

edit: doh my maths, fixed


So you propose sniping them? You'll need much larger ships in order to snipe at frigates orbiting 120km away from you.

You could try using cormorant. 120 km will be a bit pushing it but that thing has no problems hitting interceptors going 5+ km/s at ~100 .. 110 km.

This is standard MOA Cormorant fit:
[Cormorant, Cormorant MK III]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II

150mm Railgun II
150mm Railgun II
150mm Railgun II
150mm Railgun II
150mm Railgun II
150mm Railgun II
150mm Railgun II
Sov Laser I (3.7 grid 5.3 cpu max) ?

Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I
Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Hybrid Locus Coordinator I

Spike S x1000
Javelin S x1000
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S x1000
Targeting Range Script x2
Scan Resolution Script x2

You might need to switch the damage mods for tracking enhancers (or use different rigs) to hit at 120. With damage mods it's range is 95 + 5 km with spike.

For 120 .. 150 using a Moa or Eagle or T3 would do a better job probably than a BS against very low numbers of interceptors but might be vulnerable if they are not actually at 100 km and are able to burn under the guns before lock can be achieved.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2920 - 2015-03-06 07:47:06 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:

Timers and counters are the only way to do it and it has to be accessible to everyone or we are back to the problem we're in now.


And like I said above. Setting the bar at 2 minutes of time and a 100 million isk module is setting the bar too low.



Why?