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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2881 - 2015-03-06 05:14:25 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
Isn't it so like this current playerbase to point the finger at the mod and completely overlook the greater dynamics this new SOV change will bring? Why is this? The new mod itself is little more than a pointing finger. The discussion is all about sawing off the pointing finger, or keeping the pointing finger from being sawed off, or why can just anybody point the finger? None of it is a lively discussion about how this change will affect two things that have plagued the majority of New Eden for years - blue blobs and blue donuts. Under Band of Brothers, a huge section of the map was in stasis forcing players onto a small section of null sec space. Under the Blue Donut, all that happens in null sec is people rent from other people.

The majority of items in the game just aren't being used, and in both instances of "natural" game play, the "natural" result seems to be (once again) freezing up the majority of New Eden. This certainly isn't gameplay. DIddling around with one or two elements without pulling the entirety of EVE's features into play isn't gameplay either. It's diddling around. At last with this new approach there's a significant potential to pull EVE into the game of EVE. People who are focusing on the mod, and trying to find ways to circumvent things like downtime visa vis prime time will miss the boat entirely. People, and CEOs/Alliance leaderships that focus on all the aspects of the game - the development of systems, the sovereignty panel, the many and varied skills of the group now disparagingly called "carebears" WILL WIN.

So, yes. Do continue your bogged down in minutia discussion of the module, and how someone might circumvent the intended with the clever. However, understand in so doing you're demonstrating how little you've bothered to learn about the wider game of EVE. It's like obsessing on the queen's hair-do and not developing a strong pawn game. And, as anyone who knows chess will tell you, the game is won with the pawn game, not the queen.

I look forward to seeing the hindparts of The Blue Donut as it disappears over the horizon looking for another game to smother. I'm even looking forward to seeing the departure of people whose imaginations and true strategic abilities only amount to that. I'm going to enjoy ganking becoming an annoyance (as it rightly is) and emergent gameplay suddenly becoming playing EVE again!

I appreciate everyone's effort to support our game through this forum. I only suggest those who are fixated on a module try expanding your understanding of this game we play by taking a look at the map, and the other panels that seem to never get used. They are going to be the central focus of the game now - as it should be.

"The battle is won before it is fought." -Sun Tzu's way of saying "know what you're doing."-

Just 1 question. How do you see this breaking coalitions?
From what i can see this will only encourage the blue + blue to expand further. Nothing says "safe sov" like being completely surrounded by blues. The bloks know this and will only build on it.
Whether or not they use it to take more sov (I doubt it) or whether they just screw everyone not blue into submission is yet to be seen but the one thing you can be sure of - If there is a way to exploit this new module, you seem to think so unimportant, the bloks will find it and use it.

The module is such an issue because if it is not introduced correctly it will simply be OP and completely negate any efforts by CCP and players to bring content into our nice static nulsec homes.
In the right (or wrong) circumstances, a small group who has taken sov and sunk everything they have into it, could lose it due to overtime or a school exam or even a thunderstorm and 1 enemy ceptor with an Entosis module.

In response to your comparison to chess. The bloks have far more pawns ready and willing to abuse a bad mechanic than the rest of eve combined. So yes, you are right, the pawn game will win.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#2882 - 2015-03-06 05:16:14 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:

Why should we defend our sov?
Why should anyone defend their sov?

Dunno, that's a mystery to me too.
Why are you doing it right now? The proposed nullsec revamp does not change the value of sov (well, actually it does in a roundabout kind of way - by decreasing the value of supers). Which means that current sov holding entities would give the same answer to this question now as they would after the sov revamp. So you tell me, why do you guys stick to your sov?

My hunch is, sov is valuable for 2 reasons - super construction and ISK printing. There is only one way to build supers, and that is to hold sov, but this is subject to change as supers should probably lose their value as the Final Solution to your sov problems.

There are 3 major ways to print isk - incursions, blue loot and null bounties. All the other activities have their reward in loot, lp, whatever, anything but ISK.
Incursions are quite limited. Only about 500 people on average can run incursions at any given point in time with an average ISK/h reward (pure ISK, not counting LP) somewhere about equal to that of a nullsec carrier ratter. And carrier ratting scales better.
Blue loot took a nerfbat to the head earlier to the point that some major entities just left WH.

And the thing is, isk is just as good a commodity as anything else. And now we are undersupplied with isk. Well, relative to what was before anyway. This is evidenced by many non-isk commodities heavily losing their isk value. Pirate battleships are going for less than 500m a hull now. The most profitable hisec LP stores (those that don't have lvl5 agents, like sisters) caved in. Exploration loot took a deep dive (dedspace mod prices folded at least in two in last 1,5-2 years).

So you now have to slaughter about 2 times less poor rat crewmembers to afford shinies than you had to 2 years before, and an average hisec dedspace runner has to work 2 times more to earn the same isk (and that's not counting in the vastly increased competition after odyssey).

So yes, you may leave sov all you want, but that will further increase the isk value (or decrease prices if you will. You can see it as an increase in competition in other economic activities driving their value down) making anom ratting more economically attractive.
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2883 - 2015-03-06 05:16:30 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't CCP want to increase capital and supercapital losses? How do inty fleets do that, pray tell?

It's fine if no one "needs" capital and supercapitals anymore.
Just lots and lots of players who will do something endlessly because they're brainwashed or something... er

Of course, how could I forget?
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#2884 - 2015-03-06 05:34:38 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
And if people need to use 28 hours a week to stop scrubs from taking systems, it sounds balanced how? The sov system we have now even thou it's grindy at least you only needed to spend 1 hour to stop someone from taking one system compared to making eve a second job with the new system.


Kah'Les wrote:
It's a place of comidment and time


Make your mind up son.


You honestly don't know how much time in null sec goes down to fueling POS, JB and supplying yourself with weekly PvP ships. If your prime time is used hunting people all the time you get less time to logistics and CTAs to fight the bigger fights, personal roams or ISK making. Instead you sit all day in your own system activating Entosis Link all day. There are other things than fighting that takes time in this game.


Presumably that is done during the remaining 20h (-1 for DT if its not in prime window) of the day when your regions are not vulnerable.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2885 - 2015-03-06 05:35:47 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
So yes, you may leave sov all you want, but that will further increase the isk value (or decrease prices if you will. You can see it as an increase in competition in other economic activities driving their value down) making anom ratting more economically attractive.

Without sov, anom ratting also becomes a lot less scaleable etc, but you already know how ihubs work

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2886 - 2015-03-06 05:40:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Alavaria Fera
Carniflex wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Kah'Les wrote:
And if people need to use 28 hours a week to stop scrubs from taking systems, it sounds balanced how? The sov system we have now even thou it's grindy at least you only needed to spend 1 hour to stop someone from taking one system compared to making eve a second job with the new system.


Kah'Les wrote:
It's a place of comidment and time


Make your mind up son.


You honestly don't know how much time in null sec goes down to fueling POS, JB and supplying yourself with weekly PvP ships. If your prime time is used hunting people all the time you get less time to logistics and CTAs to fight the bigger fights, personal roams or ISK making. Instead you sit all day in your own system activating Entosis Link all day. There are other things than fighting that takes time in this game.


Presumably that is done during the remaining 20h (-1 for DT if its not in prime window) of the day when your regions are not vulnerable.

Yeah! You can go roam in something nice and fast and capable of taking sov

Like interceptors!!


Or if you just live a sov-less life, it is even better!!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#2887 - 2015-03-06 05:55:18 UTC
That perpetual motion can't be done doesn't make it a problem that needs to be solved. Having people who think they can think turn it into a problem doesn't then make it a problem. It may just be evidence that those people who think they can think can't actually think.

There is no cure for cancer, as cancer is a condition similar to poisoning. Once that's done, you either survive or succumb. The solution for cancer is to not get it. Not dumping poison into our environment by the metric ton per minute might be a solution there. We don't know 'cause we've never TRIED.

Invading Russia in winter is doable. But, who'd bother if you can be in the Bahamas in winter?

Relatives abound. Much of this is a misapprehension of the nature of human intelligence. Just because we think something doesn't give that thought validity. Unfortunately, our brains are not infallible computers, though many people think they are these days...oops there's that word again.

I think, therefore I drink.

The salient point made here so far was these huge alliances will HAVE to reevaluate what is reasonable to hold. That will be determined by what can be held. The fact they now have to consider this, then do it, means the change will be far reaching with interesting results we can speculate about till the sun goes down, but we won't know until we see.

Another factor being left out is, we're assuming people will try. I won't even assume that.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2888 - 2015-03-06 06:00:17 UTC
People complaining about the ceptors do so under the impression that ceptors would be impossible to catch while activating the sov laser. This is non sense. They can be and will be caught.
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#2889 - 2015-03-06 06:07:16 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Without sov, anom ratting also becomes a lot less scaleable etc, but you already know how ihubs work

But if you leave sov, then it's up for grabs for anyone willing and able.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2890 - 2015-03-06 06:16:38 UTC
Pok Nibin wrote:
That perpetual motion can't be done doesn't make it a problem that needs to be solved. Having people who think they can think turn it into a problem doesn't then make it a problem. It may just be evidence that those people who think they can think can't actually think.


What the **** are you talking about? It isn't something so philosophical, it's the second law of thermodynamics.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2891 - 2015-03-06 06:44:25 UTC

Primary This Rifter wrote:

Why should we defend our sov?
Why should anyone defend their sov?


Another question: Would anyone shed any tears if you dropped sov tomorrow? Not one.

The problem isn't whether you want to keep sov or not. There is no 30,000-foot reason to give you any motivation to keep sov. The rest of us don't care, and CCP could care even less. The question is why would someone expend the effort to come take it from you? The motivation to take it would be the so-called activity that CCP is trying to tease out.

The problem is, this motivation isn't there. Why would someone rob you of something with less value than WH or a Saturday afternoon in hisec?



Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2892 - 2015-03-06 06:45:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
It should be a partime job or you shouldn't be there.


You do realize this is a videogame, right?



Yes, but if you aren't willing to put in the work to hold the space then move to HS or LS. Null sec should be work just like WH should be work. People are against making the game easy or dumbing it down so yes I do think null should be work. In it's current state null sec isn't that great, that's why I don't live there. I don't have the time or the will to put in the work. The short time I lived in null wasn't worth it to me so I got out.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2893 - 2015-03-06 06:48:00 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
[
Yes, but if you aren't willing to put in the work to hold the space then move to HS or LS. Null sec should be work just like WH should be work.


And, according to you, sitting on a structure all the time should be where that bar is set.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2894 - 2015-03-06 06:49:43 UTC
I hate to bring up this weird little complaint, but SOV laser really reminds me of capture the flag. Nothing breaks immersion like capture the flag. The entosis laser bears no resemblance to any grand space warfare we read about in sci fi books, which is the prime reason a lot of us have come to play this game.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Seraph IX Basarab
Outer Path
Seraphim Division
#2895 - 2015-03-06 06:51:31 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
I hate to bring up this weird little complaint, but SOV laser really reminds me of capture the flag. Nothing breaks immersion like capture the flag. The entosis laser bears no resemblance to any grand space warfare we read about in sci fi books, which is the prime reason a lot of us have come to play this game.



Sure it does. It's a new module from the drifters blah blah blah.

You know what breaks my scifi experience? ****** TIDI and grinding afk structures. Aint nobody got time for that
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2896 - 2015-03-06 06:55:05 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
I am defending FW 2.0 because it will shake things up

Defending a change because "it will shake things up" is just about the most myopic justification that I can imagine. So what if it does? There's always some increase in activity after a major change in game mechanics, but this is always transient. You need to judge changes based upon the routines that players will settle into with the new mechanics, not the actions they'll take in adjusting to them.

This is the same mistake that CCP is making regarding the Phoebe travel changes. They've pointed to the flurry of activity after the patch and considered this an indication that their design was a success.



What is the indication of success?

Pilots losing more ships?
Players living in Null?
Industrial jobs in Null?

By your definition there never will be a success because there will always be a ebb and flow based on the release cycle we have now. CCP's original stated goal was to create a system that takes players another 10 years to master. The new mechanic has is flaws but I don't think it is as bad as many - mostly GSF - make it out to be. This thread is no different than any other thread about changes except in length.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
SiKong Ma
Perkone
Caldari State
#2897 - 2015-03-06 06:55:49 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
I hate to bring up this weird little complaint, but SOV laser really reminds me of capture the flag. Nothing breaks immersion like capture the flag. The entosis laser bears no resemblance to any grand space warfare we read about in sci fi books, which is the prime reason a lot of us have come to play this game.


Support my idea and make it 8 cents worth:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5552759#post5552759

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2898 - 2015-03-06 06:56:50 UTC
Wow, I caught up.

OK, few points I have taken away so far.

1) People will use this to troll or aggravate other groups . . . like they don't right now?

2) Sov needs to have value. Agreed but if we gave it value before we changed how it changed hands you would be grinding structures again. I was under the impression most folks hated grinding structures.

3) Goons will ruin everything. How is that different from any other point in the past few years. The do because they like to.

4) Fozzie will be splitting some key points into separate threads. Great, so we can tick these down one at a time.

6) Mike hates OCD folks, anarchist

7) I was and am in favour of the overall ideas presented. I said that often and before I waded into this morass of a threadnaught. If you want other CSM's personal opinions, ask them. Maybe they will tell you the truth as well. Maybe.

8) I am amazed at some of the fits you guys been throwing about for a module not yet described except in vaguest terms but I really want you to focus on the key thing . . . no outside help for the entosis ship while in cycle. Vulnerable is the key.

9) I am amazed none of you realized that intel and cloaky camping will have a new purpose. Watching local to see if and when nobody is home during prime time. Or when the defense force tends to be lax.

10) All night shops are open 24 hours a day by rotating their staff. A large multi-timezone organization could do the same for the prime time to make things interesting for different parts of its membership.

11) If I were an Aussie alliance I would hire mercs to drag a late night prime time over to my slot so we could finish it off. Remember prime time is when the battle has to start, not end.

but what do I know? I am just a hisec carebear and hell yes I will be on a ganked roam with RvB when they take out ships to knock over undefended sovs.

Looking forward to the single out threads

oh and some stats for you, make of them what you will

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)/¯
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2899 - 2015-03-06 06:59:31 UTC
These few things have probably already been addressed but;

As the new sovereignty system relies heavily on occupation and use of the system, how or why would a group go and take sov in an area that cannot support its members? What happens to those systems that now can't support more than 10 or 12 players?

Why is sov being constellation based when one of the stated objectives is for small groups to be able to take sov? A small group may well be able to hold 2 or 3 adjoining systems but find it difficult to hold a constellation.
Or is it intended the small groups band together (form yet another coalition) to hold a constellation?
There is a huge difference in being able to defend 2 or 3 systems and defending a constellation of 6 or more.

Quote:
Engaging with and disrupting enemy activities with small gangs should slowly erode their strategic defenses

This part here has me wondering, is CCP aware they are further empowering cloaky campers, without introducing any way to deal with and remove them (other than sheer luck)


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I like the concept being put forward, except for the part where a lone ship can RF structures (that is simply limiting possibility for conflict) and if it turns out a group can take only as much sov as they believe they can defend, instead of being forced to take a constellation to play a mini game (which really does not belong in sov war), it will be getting closer to enabling small groups to become sov holders.
Sov wars should be about fights, not a mini game that can be won or lost by the fastest ship.

One other thing is defenses based on system indexes. You may have a stationed system but due to its security status it will never support more than a dozen members. This means for mining in particular, if you hold a system that has only 3 or 4 belts you will never be able to mine enough ore to upgrade the ihub, therefore your defensive index will suffer. So a desirable stationed system with few belts and less desirable anoms = more easily conquered due to low defensive index.

The reason I ask is; the more productive systems will be highly contested by large groups as they can support larger numbers of players, where the less productive systems will be left for smaller groups to conquer (maybe). At the same time it will be easier for the large groups to kick out the small group because they will never get their defensive indexes up high enough to be a deterrent and assist the defense.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2900 - 2015-03-06 06:59:48 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
[
Yes, but if you aren't willing to put in the work to hold the space then move to HS or LS. Null sec should be work just like WH should be work.


And, according to you, sitting on a structure all the time should be where that bar is set.



What else is there? You don't want HP or timer grinds. We want small groups to be able to take sov, we want to encourage fights, we want fights spread out across a larger area to combat TiDi and we want people to undock and be active. How do we do all those things? This E-link thing is the closest thing we can get to that, it needs work but it seems to be the best solution to the problems we have now.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson