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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Kah'Les
hirr
Pandemic Horde
#2861 - 2015-03-06 04:27:48 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:



Like I said before, phase three will probably be an upgrade system for sov holders. I know that most space is useless, unprofitable and whatever else you want to call it and without incentives to live in that space there is no reason to hold it. Even my inferior high sec mind can grasp that, that's why I left null over a year ago. It is not interesting to me and if and when it becomes interesting again I will move back. We shouldn't let bitter vet syndrome set in before things even change.


I hate this arugment the most, well you don't know what Phase 3 is so just sit down and wait for what CCP is gone do because that is probably gone fixe everything. It's just how I we been sitting doing nothing waiting for a proper null sec warfare system just to get a Faction Warfare copy instead. But if we wait another 6 months it's gone be rewarding guys. I rather have the current system than some cheap copy, just find a way to lower the amount of timers.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2862 - 2015-03-06 04:29:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Face it, interceptors fitting this sov laser is a terrible idea and needs to be purged.

Nope, it's totally fine, and can be completely countered by AFK alts in Drakes. There's no problem at all here to solve, the solution's already there.

Quit whining about Interceptors, HTFU, and prepare to actually have to defend your sov.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2863 - 2015-03-06 04:31:40 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
We shouldn't let bitter vet syndrome set in before things even change.


No, in fact people should make sure to not let up on lighting a fire under their asses so the game doesn't get half baked, unfocused changes piecemeal.

That's a big damned problem with EVE, throughout it's history. Iterative changes are fine now and then, but not for something like this.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2864 - 2015-03-06 04:32:58 UTC
Ned Thomas wrote:
Tamdra Beebort wrote:
how long can you pilots keep it up?


I have absolutely no doubt that if an organization as large as Goonswarm can reliably entertain it's members by RF'ing the rest of nullsec every few days, then they absolutely will just because they can.


Sweet black baby jesus someone outside the CFC who comes close to understanding us.

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2865 - 2015-03-06 04:33:33 UTC
Alli Ginthur wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Reasonable people: "If you want people to take sov, you need to make sov worth taking."
Everyone else: "Well actually..."

It's like arguing with tumblr.

So true. Null needs a few hundred carrots right about now.

The only issue when null gets those carrots, if null becomes worth it to take, what happens when either your group, or NC.'s group, decide that because the improved space is wonderful, and worth to take and use, they want even more of the improved space? Doesn't it become a point where the big guys only stand to get bigger either way? If mechanically you can't break the coalitions because of the organizational prowess of the blocs, which I totally agree is something to marvel at, and you can't break the coalitions through the metagame, how DO you make it in the players' best interests to break up the coalitions and regain a null where smaller groups can gain access?

Easy. Make it so the place is worhless.

There are some groups (you know who) that live in space the "big guys" don't care for, and are farmed for killmails etc.

If all space is terrible, then it will be filled with a vibrant patchwork of people who will be farmed by the "big guys" (now staging from lowsec or wherever) and you can claim victory.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#2866 - 2015-03-06 04:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Veskrashen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Face it, interceptors fitting this sov laser is a terrible idea and needs to be purged.

Nope, it's totally fine, and can be completely countered by AFK alts in Drakes. There's no problem at all here to solve, the solution's already there.

Quit whining about Interceptors, HTFU, and prepare to actually have to defend your sov.

Why should we defend our sov?
Why should anyone defend their sov?
*Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal. this is the biggest problem with the proposal. At least sovereignty mining lasers, trollceptors, primetimes and whatnot can be discussed and fixed but CCP has been completely clueless about incentives for years, so that's the issue that I'm trying to focus on here.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2867 - 2015-03-06 04:39:34 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Face it, interceptors fitting this sov laser is a terrible idea and needs to be purged.

Nope, it's totally fine, and can be completely countered by AFK alts in Drakes. There's no problem at all here to solve, the solution's already there.

Quit whining about Interceptors, HTFU, and prepare to actually have to defend your sov.

Why should we defend our sov?
Why should anyone defend their sov?
*Snip* Please refrain from using profanity. ISD Ezwal.this is the biggest problem with the proposal. At least sovereignty mining lasers, trollceptors, primetimes and whatnot can be discussed and fixed but CCP has been completely clueless about incentives for years, so that's the issue that I'm trying to focus on here.

Goons in nullsec will end once it isn't worth it for goons to be in nullsec

It's amazing and irrefutable.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2868 - 2015-03-06 04:46:20 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same reason we would use them, to ruin someone else's game.

Why the hell would you ruin someone else's game at the expense of your own game?
Well, goons would do it to prove a point. Which is like proving that meat grinders are dangerous and should require operation license by shoving your hand into one. But why would RvB take part in this idiocy if they don't get their fun from it?


They would find it fun.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2869 - 2015-03-06 04:50:19 UTC
Kah'Les wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:



Like I said before, phase three will probably be an upgrade system for sov holders. I know that most space is useless, unprofitable and whatever else you want to call it and without incentives to live in that space there is no reason to hold it. Even my inferior high sec mind can grasp that, that's why I left null over a year ago. It is not interesting to me and if and when it becomes interesting again I will move back. We shouldn't let bitter vet syndrome set in before things even change.


I hate this arugment the most, well you don't know what Phase 3 is so just sit down and wait for what CCP is gone do because that is probably gone fixe everything. It's just how I we been sitting doing nothing waiting for a proper null sec warfare system just to get a Faction Warfare copy instead. But if we wait another 6 months it's gone be rewarding guys. I rather have the current system than some cheap copy, just find a way to lower the amount of timers.


We wanted change, no we don't because it is too change.
We don't want to shoot structures, well yes we do because there isn't really any other way to do it.
We want occupancy based sov even though we can't define it in any meaningful way.
Null is stagnate and it needs to be changed as long as it stays the same.
We don't want timers unless it changes how sov works then timers are okay.
CCP hasn't changed anything in a good way ever so they need to change sov but don't do it if changes how sov works.
Make it so that smaller groups can take sov but don't make it where smaller groups can harass larger groups.
We want players to be active unless it interrupts our playtime.

No matter what they do they are going to be wrong so why even try? We can't have both sides. There is no other way to capture sov besides shooting things with stuff and waiting on a timer because this is a video game and that is how they work.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2870 - 2015-03-06 04:54:00 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same reason we would use them, to ruin someone else's game.

Why the hell would you ruin someone else's game at the expense of your own game?
Well, goons would do it to prove a point. Which is like proving that meat grinders are dangerous and should require operation license by shoving your hand into one. But why would RvB take part in this idiocy if they don't get their fun from it?

They would find it fun.

Never underestimate the ability of our leaders to convince us that something is fun, exciting "content".

They built a massive blue donut out of it, don't joke around about things like that.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Nolak Ataru
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#2871 - 2015-03-06 04:55:56 UTC
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't CCP want to increase capital and supercapital losses? How do inty fleets do that, pray tell?
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2872 - 2015-03-06 04:56:55 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
We shouldn't let bitter vet syndrome set in before things even change.


No, in fact people should make sure to not let up on lighting a fire under their asses so the game doesn't get half baked, unfocused changes piecemeal.

That's a big damned problem with EVE, throughout it's history. Iterative changes are fine now and then, but not for something like this.


You are right we should hold them to the fire and do our best to make it the best we can through feedback and discussion.

I was referring to his comment about making sov a partime job and how only 10% of space is worth anything. It should be a partime job or you shouldn't be there. Making all space worth something is what needs to happen and phase two doesn't address that, it addresses mechanics of taking and holding sov.

Kah'Les wrote:
Making null sec into a part time job is not what's best for the game. But guess the mighty high sec dwellers always know best and they are defentily gone defend their space that day they get it without no resistance because no one wants it. Only 10% of null sec systems are worth living in I say if you guys want to live in the rest 90% I wont stop you guys. FInaly maybe you will see how useless null realy is and why we all got High sec alts doing our ISK making. BUt if this system get implemented just know it's gone be years at least until they will change it again.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson
Miner Hottie
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2873 - 2015-03-06 04:57:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Miner Hottie
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same reason we would use them, to ruin someone else's game.

Why the hell would you ruin someone else's game at the expense of your own game?
Well, goons would do it to prove a point. Which is like proving that meat grinders are dangerous and should require operation license by shoving your hand into one. But why would RvB take part in this idiocy if they don't get their fun from it?


I think you underestimate how far I will go to ruin someone else's day.

Also, because I am like a lot of goons, mid spectrum autistic, I can and will trollceptor some losers hovel system on one side of New Eden whilst valiantly defending the homeland with another.

Why?

Because CCP have spread petrol all over new eden and handed me the match and I want to watch it burn (from my fortress in Deklein).

It's all about how hot my mining lasers get.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2874 - 2015-03-06 05:02:40 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't CCP want to increase capital and supercapital losses? How do inty fleets do that, pray tell?

It's fine if no one "needs" capital and supercapitals anymore.

Just lots and lots of players who will do something endlessly because they're brainwashed or something... er

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#2875 - 2015-03-06 05:05:16 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
I am defending FW 2.0 because it will shake things up

Defending a change because "it will shake things up" is just about the most myopic justification that I can imagine. So what if it does? There's always some increase in activity after a major change in game mechanics, but this is always transient. You need to judge changes based upon the routines that players will settle into with the new mechanics, not the actions they'll take in adjusting to them.

This is the same mistake that CCP is making regarding the Phoebe travel changes. They've pointed to the flurry of activity after the patch and considered this an indication that their design was a success.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2876 - 2015-03-06 05:06:30 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
I am defending FW 2.0 because it will shake things up

Defending a change because "it will shake things up" is just about the most myopic justification that I can imagine. So what if it does? There's always some increase in activity after a major change in game mechanics, but this is always transient. You need to judge changes based upon the routines that players will settle into with the new mechanics, not the actions they'll take in adjusting to them.

This is the same mistake that CCP is making regarding the Phoebe travel changes. They've pointed to the flurry of activity after the patch and considered this an indication that their design was a success.

I'm really fatigued. It was a success.

Except that now I will go to sleep and have a 0.0dream. That is a failure.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2877 - 2015-03-06 05:07:47 UTC
Burl en Daire wrote:
It should be a partime job or you shouldn't be there.


You do realize this is a videogame, right?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Specia1 K
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#2878 - 2015-03-06 05:09:07 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same reason we would use them, to ruin someone else's game.

Why the hell would you ruin someone else's game at the expense of your own game?
Well, goons would do it to prove a point. Which is like proving that meat grinders are dangerous and should require operation license by shoving your hand into one. But why would RvB take part in this idiocy if they don't get their fun from it?


lol, I just spewed my coffee :)

Champion of the Knights of the General Discussion

Thunderdome
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#2879 - 2015-03-06 05:12:46 UTC
Specia1 K wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Same reason we would use them, to ruin someone else's game.

Why the hell would you ruin someone else's game at the expense of your own game?
Well, goons would do it to prove a point. Which is like proving that meat grinders are dangerous and should require operation license by shoving your hand into one. But why would RvB take part in this idiocy if they don't get their fun from it?


lol, I just spewed my coffee :)

Wait, so you're saying we'd end everyone else's sov, but no one would end our 0.0 dream?

That doesn't sound right. I'm sure massadeath of moa said they were going to end us

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Santiaqo
Perkone
Caldari State
#2880 - 2015-03-06 05:13:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Santiaqo
So many posts.

As to the Trollceptor point, CCP wants people to "Control Grid" to be able to Entosis sov objectives.

Trollceptor is not "Controlling Grid" so Trollceptor is "Not Intended Design" (CCP should see this... Right?)

Make Entosis fitting require enough Power so you could fit it only on Battlecruiser hulls and larger (or put a direct requirement on the module). They are slow. They are sluggish. They can't evade camps and bubbles. They need grid control to be there to Entosis.

At the same time Battlecruisers are cheap enough entry barrier so that small corps can afford it. And much easier for real defenders to defend against thus provoking real fights (which is good amirite?)

As for attackers risking cheap expendable fleets against defenders billion isk worth of infrastructure - perfectly valid point, it needs to be addressed somehow. Making Entosis module REALLY expensive seems like the obvious solution, but it would place entry barrier too high, so probably not a good one. Make t1 Entosis very clumsy yet cheap, and t2 Entosis good yet absurdly expensive is prob the way to go.


Nulls have to be much more profitable than they are now to make it worth the hassle - very solid point.