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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#2621 - 2015-03-05 20:54:56 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Big alliances are going to enlist their renters to defend space, offering them reduced rent for successful defense of systems. Big coaltions might hire mercs to patrol their space during prime time so they themselves can go do actual fun things like attack somone else's prime time in force.


Renters are dumb, but they aren't THAT dumb. Even they'll figure out pretty quickly that the only reason to pay rent goes away the moment supercap fleet leases become unnecessary.



IHUBS

This was explained to you earlier.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#2622 - 2015-03-05 20:56:38 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Phig Neutron wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Big alliances are going to enlist their renters to defend space, offering them reduced rent for successful defense of systems.

As I understand it, renters will not be able to defend their host's sovereignty. Any alliance other than the sov-holder will be treated as an attacker -- their entosis links if they use them will help reinforce the structures rather than defend from attack.

Interesting, so basically it will need the current renters to actually be part of the alliance that places the sovereignty units.
So in short the renters will be doing the job that they are currently paying rent for, the defence of their space. Will they be negotiating to be paid a fee rather than paying one?

That could be a nice additional source of income, but I can see that that could prove unpopular with those losing an income stream and having to pay instead. But is that the cost of retaining sovereignty?



no, the renters will stop paying rent and take over their own space. paying rent is a racket anyway. Yes i've done it. but that was in '10


I think we can find a 3rd party to hold the isk if you'd like to bet some. I'm game if you are.



Naw, i have learned in my 11 years here are 34 on earth that humans are stupid. Most who pay rent, do so so they don;t get steam rolled. If say goonies sent a small fleet through renter space, most renters would fold. So i'm good.

In THEORY however, if the land lord is ignoring you, you stop paying rent.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2623 - 2015-03-05 20:57:45 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Phig Neutron wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Big alliances are going to enlist their renters to defend space, offering them reduced rent for successful defense of systems.

As I understand it, renters will not be able to defend their host's sovereignty. Any alliance other than the sov-holder will be treated as an attacker -- their entosis links if they use them will help reinforce the structures rather than defend from attack.

Interesting, so basically it will need the current renters to actually be part of the alliance that places the sovereignty units.
So in short the renters will be doing the job that they are currently paying rent for, the defence of their space. Will they be negotiating to be paid a fee rather than paying one?

That could be a nice additional source of income, but I can see that that could prove unpopular with those losing an income stream and having to pay instead. But is that the cost of retaining sovereignty?



no, the renters will stop paying rent and take over their own space. paying rent is a racket anyway. Yes i've done it. but that was in '10


I think we can find a 3rd party to hold the isk if you'd like to bet some. I'm game if you are.


I am sure, that you are probably right, there is a great inertia with people, they stay with what they know, but I am sure many renters will be starting to ask, "what is in it for me" "why am I paying so someone far away can boast of a great Empire, when I am doing the defence now?"

I am sure that intimidation and fear will play a large part in retaining the income stream, but negotiations will most likely be much harder and much less friendly.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#2624 - 2015-03-05 20:59:53 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:

I am doing my damndest to catch up with this thread. But you lot keep writing faster than I can read. When I am full caught up I will start actual comments and answers but like ISD Ezwal, I am reading it all.

Every damn post.

m

Or...

Instead of reading all the posts happening now and gauging public opinion first as to how to spin what you did in the past, let people know now what your advice to CCP already WAS and to what level the CSM was consulted on this PRIOR to the dev blog announcement?

I think that's where people are disappointed with the CSM right now. We expected you guys to have immediate releases ready to go once the dev blog hit to say "we talked to CCP about this and we said 'X"', BEFORE seeing which way the wind is blowing...

Now you are just going to spin based on what public reaction is now, rather than divulge what your thought leadership with CCP was.

A pox on all of you.

Would you like to know more?
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#2625 - 2015-03-05 21:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Phig Neutron wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Big alliances are going to enlist their renters to defend space, offering them reduced rent for successful defense of systems.

As I understand it, renters will not be able to defend their host's sovereignty. Any alliance other than the sov-holder will be treated as an attacker -- their entosis links if they use them will help reinforce the structures rather than defend from attack.

Interesting, so basically it will need the current renters to actually be part of the alliance that places the sovereignty units.well they are now, but what is in it for them?
So in short the renters will be doing the job that they are currently paying rent for, the defence of their space. Will they be negotiating to be paid a fee rather than paying one?

That could be a nice additional source of income, but I can see that that could prove unpopular with those losing an income stream and having to pay instead. But is that the cost of retaining sovereignty?


Renters are already members of the same alliance who bribe leadership to dodge CTAs and paplink requirements. The name and logo are just superficial so the host section of the arrangement can pretend they are warrior, or some thing, not just a huge blob of bears and "pubbies". All you need is for them to abandon the pretence, and have the renter corps come in under the main alliance and continue the bribes, which will vary based on how many wand CTAs they did. If they fail the CTA (probable) the true warrior section can come in and prop them up with more entosiseses from the same alliance. De Facto Renting can continue as usual.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#2626 - 2015-03-05 21:03:44 UTC
Lady Zarrina wrote:
I keep reading that smaller entities are in more trouble with this system. Please give me a real example of this mythical small entity that can successfully fend off the goons now, but will not be able to in the future?



Small entities? There are small entities in sov under present day Dominion? This is news to me What?

Mike Azariah wrote:
Speedkermit Damo wrote:


One other important point. WTF is the CSM? I haven't seem a single post from a current CSM member in this thread with an opinion on these proposals. Neither have I seem any of the candidates for CSM sharing their opinions (except for Xenuria and he doesn't count). I want to know what the nullsec candidates in particular think about all this.

Manny, Endie, Corebloodbrothers - where are you?


I am doing my damndest to catch up with this thread. But you lot keep writing faster than I can read. When I am full caught up I will start actual comments and answers but like ISD Ezwal, I am reading it all.

Every damn post.

m


Oh you poor man... at least we can skip the long wall of text ones.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Schluffi Schluffelsen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2627 - 2015-03-05 21:03:59 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:

I am doing my damndest to catch up with this thread. But you lot keep writing faster than I can read. When I am full caught up I will start actual comments and answers but like ISD Ezwal, I am reading it all.

Every damn post.

m

Or...

Instead of reading all the posts happening now and gauging public opinion first as to how to spin what you did in the past, let people know now what your advice to CCP already WAS and to what level the CSM was consulted on this PRIOR to the dev blog announcement?

I think that's where people are disappointed with the CSM right now. We expected you guys to have immediate releases ready to go once the dev blog hit to say "we talked to CCP about this and we said 'X"', BEFORE seeing which way the wind is blowing...

Now you are just going to spin based on what public reaction is now, rather than divulge what your thought leadership with CCP was.

A pox on all of you.



^ this is so true.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2628 - 2015-03-05 21:05:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lena Lazair
Jenn aSide wrote:
IHUBS

This was explained to you earlier.


Yes, and countered.

Who will be defending the IHUBS on a daily basis? The renters. Who can flip the existing IHUBS with a single noobship over a couple of days with their sov laser if the landlord doesn't come down to defend the IHUB themselves? The renters. How many IHUB flips does NC. plan to contest once the entirety of NA. figures this out all at the same time? None. Maybe a couple. Certainly not all, or even most.

IHUBS are not so incredibly hard to place that it requires paying a couple of B a month to a landlord just for the privilege of already having one in place or letting a freighter through, once, to plant your own. It's an annoyance, sure, but you are putting one or two months of rent in ISK on the line to transport your own IHUB down there. It's not THAT hard to get a freighter through safely; certainly not so much that it will be a significant deterrent if it is literally the last thing preventing a renter from not having to pay several B a month.

(EDIT: Also, how many renters are moving IHUBs into their systems right now with their existing blue/friendly standings and safe passage, I wonder? How many will simply need to login an already-in-system freighter alt once they've dropped their renter alliance tag and flipped the TCU?)
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2629 - 2015-03-05 21:06:08 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Senyu Takashi wrote:



Minig belts? Making stuff and selling it on trade hubs? Allow line members and smaller corps in your alliance to own reaction POSes? How about industry, invention and ancient relic invention(since slots are gone there shouldnt be a problem with "not enough stations")? Maybe allowing neuts to dock in your stations and trade with you instead of just exporting moon goo?

You know, red crosses arent the only source of income in this game.


I don't run any alliance so none of that applies to me.

"shooting red Xs" is the primary income making mechanic in null. "Do industry" is not a solution to the combat anomaly problems lol.



Jenn you are very experienced in the Various sites and anomalies, across null.

Would you be able to present to your CSM rep to pass to CCP, the sites, that have issues and problems, that either reward badly for the time taken, or unrealistically lengthen the time you require, with low reward exposed in space, and what about those sites are the issues, to allow the PVE team to resolve them one by one without having to hunt them out?

This would benefit everyone operating in null to one degree or another, fairly improve the income, and help provide some carrot to go with the changes?

Hope you do not mind me suggesting it.


Fixed quoting. ISD Ezwal.


don't mind at all and if someone wants to do that, I'll help.

But CCP knows already. They can't not know.

It is not so much a question of not knowing, it is getting approval for getting the time to look at specifics. If individual, clear reports on a site come in, one of the devs will be able to look exactly at that in a few spare minutes without being pulled of another project. And once they see exactly what you see, then things will get fixed. It is working with the realities of their life, rather than waiting for a large block of time and resources needed to look at everything.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2630 - 2015-03-05 21:07:03 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Mike Azariah wrote:

I am doing my damndest to catch up with this thread. But you lot keep writing faster than I can read. When I am full caught up I will start actual comments and answers but like ISD Ezwal, I am reading it all.

Every damn post.

m

Or...

Instead of reading all the posts happening now and gauging public opinion first as to how to spin what you did in the past, let people know now what your advice to CCP already WAS and to what level the CSM was consulted on this PRIOR to the dev blog announcement?

I think that's where people are disappointed with the CSM right now. We expected you guys to have immediate releases ready to go once the dev blog hit to say "we talked to CCP about this and we said 'X"', BEFORE seeing which way the wind is blowing...

Now you are just going to spin based on what public reaction is now, rather than divulge what your thought leadership with CCP was.

A pox on all of you.

Mike Azariah's CSM Candidacy wrote:
I am Mike Azariah, Hisec resident...Carebear...Casual player...Northern Troll...Anarchist


I have a hunch about how he might have felt about this Cool

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#2631 - 2015-03-05 21:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: M1k3y Koontz
Eli Apol wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

It's very limited annoyance for the defender if he's locally based in the first place.


No one can base locally. That's the part everyone seems to be forgetting.

You're also severely underestimating just how much trouble one dedicated camper can cause.

The Tl;DR of a bunch of the earlier replies to me:

"But Kaarous, the defender has forty minutes under perfectly ideal conditions to un reinforce it!"

Yeah, I know. How many systems in the game actually merit maxed out indices? How many don't? The last number is a damn sight bigger than the first number. (nevermind that this is a huge underestimation of just how much trouble one guy with half a dozen cloaked alts will be able to cause)

Unless this is accompanied by a full, and I mean full restructuring of personal level income in nullsec, it will be problematic. Without said full restructuring, it is unreasonable to expect people, plural, to live in and defend a single system when that system has worse income than slowboating highsec missions. (let alone the disgusting income of Incursions)

Completely agree. Null incomes need to be changed. Instead of moons giving isk to the alliance execs to pad their wallets from the top down the isk should be made available to line members and distributed from the bottom up.

If anyone is willing to actually post an uptodate value on those R32s and R64s by the way, just so we know how much income is never seen by the line members of those 40k strong alliances in this poor nullsec that we keep hearing about I'd love to hear it :)


Someone posted accurate numbers a few pages back, I dug up the post:

Soldarius wrote:


  • Atmospheric Gases: -100M
  • Evaporite Deposits: 641k
  • Hydrocarbons: -95.1M
  • Silicates: -51.4M
  • Cobalt: 27.7M
  • Scandium: 103M
  • Titanium: 31.4M
  • Tungsten: -54.9M
  • Cadmium: 1.00B
  • Chromium: 261M
  • Platinum: 184M
  • Vanadium: 185M
  • Caesium: 421M
  • Hafnium: 694M
  • Mercury: 302M
  • Technetium: 637M
  • Dysprosium: 6.27B
  • Neodymium: 1.83B
  • Promethium: 2.05B
  • Thulium: 1.77B


It's accurate based on my moon based activities as well. I bolded R64s, they really aren't that great anymore, Dyspro is the only really good one, the rest are notable but not that impressive. It's certainly not the income they used to be back in the day.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#2632 - 2015-03-05 21:09:33 UTC  |  Edited by: DaReaper
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
DaReaper wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Phig Neutron wrote:

As I understand it, renters will not be able to defend their host's sovereignty. Any alliance other than the sov-holder will be treated as an attacker -- their entosis links if they use them will help reinforce the structures rather than defend from attack.

Interesting, so basically it will need the current renters to actually be part of the alliance that places the sovereignty units.
So in short the renters will be doing the job that they are currently paying rent for, the defence of their space. Will they be negotiating to be paid a fee rather than paying one?

That could be a nice additional source of income, but I can see that that could prove unpopular with those losing an income stream and having to pay instead. But is that the cost of retaining sovereignty?



no, the renters will stop paying rent and take over their own space. paying rent is a racket anyway. Yes i've done it. but that was in '10


I think we can find a 3rd party to hold the isk if you'd like to bet some. I'm game if you are.


I am sure, that you are probably right, there is a great inertia with people, they stay with what they know, but I am sure many renters will be starting to ask, "what is in it for me" "why am I paying so someone far away can boast of a great Empire, when I am doing the defence now?"

I am sure that intimidation and fear will play a large part in retaining the income stream, but negotiations will most likely be much harder and much less friendly.



Back in '09 my alliance at the time came out of wormholes and we lived in outter ring with vanguard. Sometime before dominion hit, vanguard moved north and we stayed. Dominion hit and one of my directors grabbed space while i was at work (grr past) It happened to be evoke space, and they ignored us for about 2 days. Then came the 'pay up or we kill you' So we did. About a month later however, when it was time to pay rent again, we noticed Evoke was occupied, so we were debating on not paying. We also were gate camping, and not blue to evoke.. well... the leader of evoke came through out space and we killed him. That was a fun thing, but rent demanded again and new restitions added (honestly at the time evoke was being stupid) We then saw that atlas. had space for better money and goonies were sniffing around the area, so we bounced.

We were happily renting 3 systems paying our rent.. but we noticed renters aorund us being weaker then us, which is hard to do... so we thought about invading, but didn;t due to the rental contract. White noise, and the Drone russian collalition at the time invaded atlas, so we stopped paying rent and grabbed a few decent moons as atlas falled. WN came demanding more rent, and we were able to avoid that for a two months. Other stuff happened and we joined IRC (stupid decicion, long story.. but whatever) anyway, my point is, from my own experence, that as a renter if your land lord is busy or ignoring you, you start getting the urge to not pay rent. Then if the land lord notices you feeling liek you are getting too big for your britches, they just saber rattle and most people will cave.

Some of the renters might toss the big guys off. Then depending on what happens, say goon ignores one alliance in one system of there empire, this might embolden others. It could be a fun slaughter for goons and other land lords though, to cull the alliances that think they can stand on our own. So no jenna, a bet i won;t make, cause at this point i'm not sure what way is for sure. Depending on how things shape up, the human need for safty and a perminate home might start being conflicted in renters. So who knows.

yes i rambled, deal with it

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#2633 - 2015-03-05 21:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Apol
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Someone posted accurate numbers a few pages back, I dug up the post:

Soldarius wrote:


  • Atmospheric Gases: -100M
  • Evaporite Deposits: 641k
  • Hydrocarbons: -95.1M
  • Silicates: -51.4M
  • Cobalt: 27.7M
  • Scandium: 103M
  • Titanium: 31.4M
  • Tungsten: -54.9M
  • Cadmium: 1.00B
  • Chromium: 261M
  • Platinum: 184M
  • Vanadium: 185M
  • Caesium: 421M
  • Hafnium: 694M
  • Mercury: 302M
  • Technetium: 637M
  • Dysprosium: 6.27B
  • Neodymium: 1.83B
  • Promethium: 2.05B
  • Thulium: 1.77B


It's accurate based on my moon based activities as well. I bolded R64s, they really aren't that great anymore, Dyspro is the only really good one, the rest are notable but not that impressive. It's certainly not the income they used to be back in the day.

Damn you now I have to get my spreadsheet on!

Ty tho really Straight

edit: About 4 trillion / month just from the ones that are in the black AND which dotlan has coverage for - so at least I was in the right order of magnitude. Definitely not an inconsequential amount :)

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2634 - 2015-03-05 21:12:29 UTC
The prime time idea really needs to be reevaluated. Structures/Sov needs to be attackable at any time of the day, with the structures/Sov coming out of RF during the corp's prime time. Then, the owning corp would be at an advantage (since more of their members will be present, presumably), while the aggressor would be at a seeming disadvantage (as their prime times may be different). But keeping Sov safe for many hours of the day is boring and asinine.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#2635 - 2015-03-05 21:14:10 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Someone posted accurate numbers a few pages back, I dug up the post:

Soldarius wrote:


  • Atmospheric Gases: -100M
  • Evaporite Deposits: 641k
  • Hydrocarbons: -95.1M
  • Silicates: -51.4M
  • Cobalt: 27.7M
  • Scandium: 103M
  • Titanium: 31.4M
  • Tungsten: -54.9M
  • Cadmium: 1.00B
  • Chromium: 261M
  • Platinum: 184M
  • Vanadium: 185M
  • Caesium: 421M
  • Hafnium: 694M
  • Mercury: 302M
  • Technetium: 637M
  • Dysprosium: 6.27B
  • Neodymium: 1.83B
  • Promethium: 2.05B
  • Thulium: 1.77B


It's accurate based on my moon based activities as well. I bolded R64s, they really aren't that great anymore, Dyspro is the only really good one, the rest are notable but not that impressive. It's certainly not the income they used to be back in the day.

Damn you now I have to get my spreadsheet on!

Ty tho really Straight



And this is why moon need to be ACTIVE mined. Not mined with pos.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Snoodaard Thrasy
Yulai Guard
#2636 - 2015-03-05 21:14:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Snoodaard Thrasy
Been thinking about this, and I still think you absolutely need to retain some kind of SBU type module. You gotta have more warning as a sov holder. Otherwise sov holders everywhere are going to be the non-stop go-to content machine for everyone and his grandmother. Wanna have fun on Saturday? Find a low-index pipe system, reinforce it with a well-rounded small gang or just send 30 Entosis ships in and you're set in 48 hours. Great for those looking for a fight, an absolute hellish headache for sov holders everywhere.

So, allow for more warning for sov holders with an SBU-like module while making it still easy to actually reinforce something.

After all, the barrier for actual sov warfare was never the SBU's, but the necessary structure grinding, surely? Removing structure grind will force sov holders to defend their space and undefended space easy to take (the intention of this change?) while removing the SBU-mechanic makes sov space farm space, and that is not what sov should be about.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#2637 - 2015-03-05 21:15:30 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
M1k3y Koontz wrote:
Someone posted accurate numbers a few pages back, I dug up the post:

Soldarius wrote:


  • Atmospheric Gases: -100M
  • Evaporite Deposits: 641k
  • Hydrocarbons: -95.1M
  • Silicates: -51.4M
  • Cobalt: 27.7M
  • Scandium: 103M
  • Titanium: 31.4M
  • Tungsten: -54.9M
  • Cadmium: 1.00B
  • Chromium: 261M
  • Platinum: 184M
  • Vanadium: 185M
  • Caesium: 421M
  • Hafnium: 694M
  • Mercury: 302M
  • Technetium: 637M
  • Dysprosium: 6.27B
  • Neodymium: 1.83B
  • Promethium: 2.05B
  • Thulium: 1.77B


It's accurate based on my moon based activities as well. I bolded R64s, they really aren't that great anymore, Dyspro is the only really good one, the rest are notable but not that impressive. It's certainly not the income they used to be back in the day.

Damn you now I have to get my spreadsheet on!

Ty tho really Straight


Np, if you use google docs there's a way to have the price autoupdate, someone in the S&I forum might be able to help better than I. Mine is a ripoff of an alliance-mate's.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2638 - 2015-03-05 21:15:34 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
DaReaper wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Phig Neutron wrote:

As I understand it, renters will not be able to defend their host's sovereignty. Any alliance other than the sov-holder will be treated as an attacker -- their entosis links if they use them will help reinforce the structures rather than defend from attack.

Interesting, so basically it will need the current renters to actually be part of the alliance that places the sovereignty units.but they are already if only in name?
So in short the renters will be doing the job that they are currently paying rent for, the defence of their space. Will they be negotiating to be paid a fee rather than paying one?

That could be a nice additional source of income, but I can see that that could prove unpopular with those losing an income stream and having to pay instead. But is that the cost of retaining sovereignty?


I am sure, that you are probably right, there is a great inertia with people, they stay with what they know, but I am sure many renters will be starting to ask, "what is in it for me" "why am I paying so someone far away can boast of a great Empire, when I am doing the defence now?"

I am sure that intimidation and fear will play a large part in retaining the income stream, but negotiations will most likely be much harder and much less friendly.



Back in '09 my alliance at the time came out of wormholes and we lived in outter ring with vanguard. Sometime before dominion hit, vanguard moved north and we stayed. Dominion hit and one of my directors grabbed space while i was at work (grr past) It happened to be evoke space, and they ignored us for about 2 days. Then came the 'pay up or we kill you' So we did. About a month later however, when it was time to pay rent again, we noticed Evoke was occupied, so we were debating on not paying. We also were gate camping, and not blue to evoke.. well... the leader of evoke came through out space and we killed him. That was not a fun thing, but rent demanded again and new restitions added (honestly at the time evoke was being stupid) We then saw that atlas. had space for better money and goonies were sniffing around the area, so we bounced.

We were happily renting 3 systems paying our rent.. but we noticed renters aorund us being weaker then us, which is hard to do... so we thought about invading, but didn;t due to the rental contract. White noise, and the Drone russian collalition at the time invaded atlas, so we stopped paying rent and grabbed a few decent moons as atlas falled. WN came demanding more rent, and we were able to avoid that for a two months. Other stuff happened and we joined IRC (stupid decicion, long story.. but whatever) anyway, my point is, from my own experence, that as a renter if your land lord is busy or ignoring you, you start getting the urge to not pay rent. Then if the land lord notices you feeling liek you are getting too big for your britches, they just saber rattle and most people will cave.

Some of the renters might toss the big guys off. Then depending on what happens, say goon ignores one alliance in one system of there empire, this might embolden others. It could be a fun slaughter for goons and other land lords though, to cull the alliances that think they can stand on our own. So no jenna, a bet i won;t make, cause at this point i'm not sure what way is for sure. Depending on how things shape up, the human need for safty and a perminate home might start being conflicted in renters. So who knows.

yes i rambled, deal with it


Interesting, So I imagine with the new sov, you and others you have connections with as renters, will be re-evaluating the terms and conditions at the least, and considering freedom and independence, as opposed to continuing the rental relationship?

This could turn out to be the most significant area of the new changes, particuarly if the current sov holders are relying on you to provide your own defence?

I remember a quote from the foundation trilogy, that Empires collapse from the periphery. As they need to consolidate, the periphery takes it's independance. I wonder if the new sov means we are exiting the age of Null empires.

I am sure, every renter corp will be starting to ask these questions, and like pandora's box once open what is released and seen can never be shoved back into the box and forgotten.

Exciting times.

Edit:- I may have messed up quoting apologies if so.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#2639 - 2015-03-05 21:17:17 UTC
Lena Lazair wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
this is hilarious

if a person fucks with blues, they get kicked from alliance and blacklisted

the existing punishment mechanic works plenty fine here


You know why that works now? Because the only people that can feasibly **** with blues are cap and supercap pilots, which is a small fraction of the alliance. Further, they actually have to put very expensive ships on the line to do it, and the result will be getting those ships either welped by the enemy or simply popped by blues as punishment before they kick you out in very embarrassing, very expensive killmails.

After the change? Every single one of your line members flying cheap subcaps can go do this. They won't need SRP, they won't care if they welp the fleet, and if you kick them out, I'm curious to know who is going to actually do the work of defending YOUR sov every day? You were counting on those line members living in each system to login 4 hours a day and defensive E-link on demand. You think your small % of supercap pilots are going to pick up the slack after you've kicked out 50% of the subcap line members who wanted to get actual fights once in a while without having to fly all the way down to Provi?

no

not at all

you have no frame of reference for the thing you are discussing

here is a real-life scenario

i go postal and take out some blues who are ratting

if i don't reimburse them, i get kicked from gsf and put on a cfc-wide blacklist

the punishment for even the smallest infractions regarding messing with blues is your ass is grass

i don't know how to explain it more simply than that

i mean i get that where you come from, organizational affiliation is a joke at best, but goons are pretty serious about it
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2640 - 2015-03-05 21:23:17 UTC
Confirming blue backstabbing is the most explicitly defined cardinal sin.

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