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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Skill Points remapping/buying™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Dave Stark
#141 - 2015-03-10 16:24:53 UTC
Bal'Ayle wrote:
Why should bob who had more utility to play eve a year ago have a higher potential then me when I have plenty of resources to catch back up now? just because he was able to at the time?


he doesn't, go and buy a character with more sp than bob.
Mehrune Khan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2015-03-10 16:39:50 UTC
I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.

Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula.
Mehrune Khan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#143 - 2015-03-10 16:46:55 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

The player who is now higher in total SP has either been playing for that time and interracting with the game environment/other players and/or paying CCP for the privilege. The higher SP is reward for that loyalty and input to the game.

As I said I'm always sympathetic to those who couldn't play for some reason but how could CCP ever decypher a genuine case of inabilty to play from someone space rich or RL rich ewanting to buy SP and creat perfect character x, y, or z?

It wouldbe abused by those with the most money to keep themselves ahead of those who can only afford to pay one or two plex for an SP boost and the dynamic of pilots would shift from the current balance of low-medium-high SP chars to being much more heavily medium SP players and probably a lot more large SP players.

There is no way such an idea could be introduced without it being abused and reducing the whole point of characters and training in the first place. It's one of the things that sets Eve apart from other games and in my opinion is fine as it is.


This is incorrect. Because SP doesn't progress as a direct result of gameplay, the player with a longer subscription does not have necessarily interacted more with the game environment, or necessarily provided more input.

The amount of SP you have is directly tied to the amount of money you have paid CCP and nothing else.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#144 - 2015-03-10 16:49:04 UTC
Mehrune Khan wrote:
I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.

Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula.


It does in the sense that the slightly variable playing field is level for everyone. Pay your subscription and gain SP at a rate within the current min/max that is amendable via risking assets in game. Allowing people to buy additional SP/remaps/training rate beyond that available to everybody in game simply favours those with more ISK or RL money.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#145 - 2015-03-10 16:52:28 UTC
Mehrune Khan wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:

The player who is now higher in total SP has either been playing for that time and interracting with the game environment/other players and/or paying CCP for the privilege. The higher SP is reward for that loyalty and input to the game.

As I said I'm always sympathetic to those who couldn't play for some reason but how could CCP ever decypher a genuine case of inabilty to play from someone space rich or RL rich ewanting to buy SP and creat perfect character x, y, or z?

It wouldbe abused by those with the most money to keep themselves ahead of those who can only afford to pay one or two plex for an SP boost and the dynamic of pilots would shift from the current balance of low-medium-high SP chars to being much more heavily medium SP players and probably a lot more large SP players.

There is no way such an idea could be introduced without it being abused and reducing the whole point of characters and training in the first place. It's one of the things that sets Eve apart from other games and in my opinion is fine as it is.


This is incorrect. Because SP doesn't progress as a direct result of gameplay, the player with a longer subscription does not have necessarily interacted more with the game environment, or necessarily provided more input.

The amount of SP you have is directly tied to the amount of money you have paid CCP and nothing else.


And thus you have supported CCP and the game buy paying them one way or another. If by cash then it directly supports development, if it is buy PLEX then you have interacted with the game environment and therefore affected everyone else in game to some degree.

Allowing PLEX to be used to buy SP would also cause huge inflation in PLEX price thus damaging the ability of those who can't afford RL money and are time rich to plex their accounts. The time poor but cash rich players would still be fine to pay of course but there would overall be less pilots in space and that can never be good.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#146 - 2015-03-10 16:53:11 UTC
If CCP were to institute SP purchase then they might as well go the whole microtransactions route and start selling gold ammo and pulling shiny super bonused hulls out of thin air along with all the other paraphernalia of Pay2Win.

Thin end of the wedge.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Mehrune Khan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#147 - 2015-03-10 16:58:06 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mehrune Khan wrote:
I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.

Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula.


It does in the sense that the slightly variable playing field is level for everyone. Pay your subscription and gain SP at a rate within the current min/max that is amendable via risking assets in game. Allowing people to buy additional SP/remaps/training rate beyond that available to everybody in game simply favours those with more ISK or RL money.


I think SP boosts could come with limits. I favor a system where they let players use a PLEX to give a character 30 days of 50% faster skill learning, and accounts are only allowed to have one boost active at any time, as it would keep rich players from gaining an overly huge advantage while also allowing most players access to an SP boost. It would also be very similar to the service we already have where we can activate the skill queue on alts using a PLEX.

There have also been other similar ideas in the thread, such as a limited number of boosts per character, or a limited number of boosts each year. I think we can all agree that SP boosts shouldn't be used to the extreme.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2015-03-10 17:08:18 UTC
Mehrune Khan wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mehrune Khan wrote:
I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.

Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula.


It does in the sense that the slightly variable playing field is level for everyone. Pay your subscription and gain SP at a rate within the current min/max that is amendable via risking assets in game. Allowing people to buy additional SP/remaps/training rate beyond that available to everybody in game simply favours those with more ISK or RL money.


I think SP boosts could come with limits. I favor a system where they let players use a PLEX to give a character 30 days of 50% faster skill learning, and accounts are only allowed to have one boost active at any time, as it would keep rich players from gaining an overly huge advantage while also allowing most players access to an SP boost. It would also be very similar to the service we already have where we can activate the skill queue on alts using a PLEX.

There have also been other similar ideas in the thread, such as a limited number of boosts per character, or a limited number of boosts each year. I think we can all agree that SP boosts shouldn't be used to the extreme.


I would then have my main training at 50% higher than any new player can hope to achieve at all times and the real space rich players would have every alt training at this higher rate. This would increase the gapo between new and old players not decrease it.

I still maintain that any SP purchase/remap ability that is large enough to be worth the time and effort would be immediately abusable by those with more disposable income.
Mehrune Khan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#149 - 2015-03-10 17:16:36 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mehrune Khan wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mehrune Khan wrote:
I wouldn't equate RMT to cheating. Many games rely on RMT for their profits - deck building games and free to play games for example.

Like I said it's not a change that is mechanically different from what we have now. We can already reduce our SP progression down to X amount of dollars spent to X amount of SP gained. Letting players purchase SP boosts doesn't break from that formula.


It does in the sense that the slightly variable playing field is level for everyone. Pay your subscription and gain SP at a rate within the current min/max that is amendable via risking assets in game. Allowing people to buy additional SP/remaps/training rate beyond that available to everybody in game simply favours those with more ISK or RL money.


I think SP boosts could come with limits. I favor a system where they let players use a PLEX to give a character 30 days of 50% faster skill learning, and accounts are only allowed to have one boost active at any time, as it would keep rich players from gaining an overly huge advantage while also allowing most players access to an SP boost. It would also be very similar to the service we already have where we can activate the skill queue on alts using a PLEX.

There have also been other similar ideas in the thread, such as a limited number of boosts per character, or a limited number of boosts each year. I think we can all agree that SP boosts shouldn't be used to the extreme.


I would then have my main training at 50% higher than any new player can hope to achieve at all times and the real space rich players would have every alt training at this higher rate. This would increase the gapo between new and old players not decrease it.

I still maintain that any SP purchase/remap ability that is large enough to be worth the time and effort would be immediately abusable by those with more disposable income.


Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#150 - 2015-03-10 19:39:05 UTC
Mehrune Khan wrote:


Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.


You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players...
Freedom Nadd
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2015-03-10 20:27:38 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mehrune Khan wrote:


Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.


You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players...


Simple answer.

Make isk. Buy character. Quit whining.

Pay to Win nearly destroyed this game not so long ago. Anything like Pay to SP WILL destroy it.

Mehrune Khan
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#152 - 2015-03-10 21:32:15 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mehrune Khan wrote:


Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.


You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players...


No I got your point. This is IMO the best way to introduce a SP boost. It doesn't give a player a lump sum of SP all at once, it only applies to one character at a time every 30 days per account, and it's the same price as activating a second characters skill queue, which by the way would give you more SP overall (2 characters at 100% learning speed compared to 1 character at 150% learning speed).

It could also be said that implants also favor richer players as new players can't afford implants out of the gate. Strangely enough the answer for people who have criticized this has always been that they could buy a PLEX. How ironic. The fact is, is that richer players will always have an advantage of some form or another. Even if we made all characters equal they could just subscribe multiple accounts. There is no getting around that. At the least, this type of SP boost would make the advantage the price of one PLEX, compared to the 15 or 20 PLEX needed for a character from the bazaar.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2015-03-10 21:52:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
Why should i buy another char? I want to stay with one i have created with such a big love and when time has passed and plans been changed i want to re-focus to something new, and SP's remap is the right tool for that.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2015-03-10 23:49:20 UTC
Mehrune Khan wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Mehrune Khan wrote:


Sure they could achieve it. They simply buy and use a PLEX to get the boost.


You missed my point, this would horribly favour the space/RL rich players over new players...


No I got your point. This is IMO the best way to introduce a SP boost. It doesn't give a player a lump sum of SP all at once, it only applies to one character at a time every 30 days per account, and it's the same price as activating a second characters skill queue, which by the way would give you more SP overall (2 characters at 100% learning speed compared to 1 character at 150% learning speed).

It could also be said that implants also favor richer players as new players can't afford implants out of the gate. Strangely enough the answer for people who have criticized this has always been that they could buy a PLEX. How ironic. The fact is, is that richer players will always have an advantage of some form or another. Even if we made all characters equal they could just subscribe multiple accounts. There is no getting around that. At the least, this type of SP boost would make the advantage the price of one PLEX, compared to the 15 or 20 PLEX needed for a character from the bazaar.


The problem here is that two characters training at the normal rate as alts take the same time to train whereas with this idea one character now trains at 50% higher rate, i.e. it takes 2/3 the time to train something which is a huge increase. As you say implants cost isk but the difference in training rate for +5's is minimal over affordable +4's and the pilot has a ton of isk at risk to do so (or doesn't undock if they are that daft and therefore make no isk at all). This idea means a player would get 50% rate increase at absolutely no risk.

The rich players or even reasonably well off players such as myself would always train at 50% higher than most new players. They would never catch up no matter what. Note: This is in the sense of total SP, the idea of 'catching up' is a total fallacy.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#155 - 2015-03-11 01:06:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Tiddle Jr
double post

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Leonardo Adami
Doomheim
#156 - 2015-03-11 02:41:40 UTC
All the haters against skill point change are just bitter cause they didn't have any option from the get go to get skill points faster/easier. Every time someone new joins all you see is skill points don't matter blah blah, so who the f**k cares if CCP ever decides to actually implement something like skill point buying or makes it so people can get skill points easier cause it's player skill/OGB/blobs that matter amirite.Roll

For the record I'm not for or against any change to the skill point system.
Dave Stark
#157 - 2015-03-11 08:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Why should i buy another char? I want to stay with one i have created with such a big love and when time has passed and plans been changed i want to re-focus to something new, and SP's remap is the right tool for that.


you should buy it if you want more sp, or sp allocated in a different way to currently.

not sure why you needed such an obvious thing explaining to you, but there you go.


no, sp remaps are not the right tool for that, correct planning of your skill queue is the right tool for that.
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#158 - 2015-03-11 16:27:11 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
An amazing absence of blue posts so I'll just try and force it. Can any CSM/Dev tell us what CCP's stance is on this issue and if it's being discussed internally, regardless of how (in)formal it may be.

This is one of those festering rumours that WILL result in drama which could have so easily been taken care of if only CCP would have been smart enough to make an obvious, unambiguous, statement on it before the **** hits the fan. We've been in that situation before, I'm not interested in going back to it.


It's almost a certainty that learning implants will be removed and that attribute points will be 'iterated' and that this is NOT a rumour. CCP asked in my original forum OP on this issue, which I think ran over 100 pages if memory serves but is now 'closed', what we would like, if anything, in place of the learning implants in slots one to five. It is purely a matter of time before this change is implemented.

I think CCP see learning implants primarily as an unnecessary complication which puts off new players staying on to play EVE Online. Additionally they also feel the existence of learning implants makes capsuleers more risk adverse and less likely to engage in PvP.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Jump Clones are removed as well after this as they have an element of complication about them as well. We will have to wait and see I guess.
Kyalla Ahashion
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#159 - 2015-03-11 17:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Kyalla Ahashion
If attribute remaps are retained in their current form, do not make them available for some period of time (90 days? 6 months) .

Rationale:
The current mechanic rewards newly created alts of veteran players at the expense of penalizing new players

Attribute remaps force genuinely new players to choose between an "optimal" SP/Hour training plan, which trains skills in such an order that the character takes a long time to become enjoyable to play., or training skills in the order which gets the player access to content quickly, at the expense of training much more slowly.

With access to remaps delayed, this choice between a poor new player experience vs a less optimized training plan would be moot, alts of bittervets would train at the same effective rate as new players (for at least long enough that those new players can begin to get an understanding of how to optimize.

Replace the 3 bonus remaps at character creation with a system under which a remap is awarded periodically, and up to 3 remaps can be saved up

Rationale:
Greater flexibility in aligning training plans with remaps, and less incentive to "hoard" the bonus remaps since they would be replaced over time.

Guided Training System

In addition to the current "skill queue" mechanics, implement a guided skill planning system that beverages ship masteries, certificates, and the concept of "career paths" to automatically maintain a sensible training plan.

Training goals could be a ship, module, mastery, or certificate. Having a training goal set would cause the skills to reach that goal to be automatically trained after any skills manually placed into the skill queue. Goals would be queued just as skills are queued in the training queue now.

A career path would allow the player to choose a racial focus (defaulting to the character's race), and a career - generalist, combat, mining, exploration, etc. A predefined training plan would exist for each combination, allowing skills suitable to that plan to be automatically chosen any time that both the skill queue and the goals are empty. and a career path would be set from the very beginning of character creation.

The next few skills from the player's goals Goals and Career Path would be shown at the end of the player's skill queue, and the player would be able to drag stills from there into their "manual" queue.

I think this would be easier to understand for new players , and it would reduce the dependence on third party tools.
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#160 - 2015-03-11 20:11:39 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Why should i buy another char? I want to stay with one i have created with such a big love and when time has passed and plans been changed i want to re-focus to something new, and SP's remap is the right tool for that.


you should buy it if you want more sp, or sp allocated in a different way to currently.

not sure why you needed such an obvious thing explaining to you, but there you go.


no, sp remaps are not the right tool for that, correct planning of your skill queue is the right tool for that.


You sir are wrong. If this game was stable and never updated with expantions then i would agree with you.

For now the only best way to invest my time into current SP's system is go ahead with jack-of-all skills scenario.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP