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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Skill Points remapping/buying™: Ideas, Discussion, and Proposals

First post First post
Author
Shakuul
Infinitus Sapientia
#321 - 2015-04-15 13:40:19 UTC
Loteaus Seaven wrote:
The way the skills are squired is a good example of delayed gratification.

Would it be a fair compromise if, like how we can remap once a year, we could change one skill per year, to correct an error made in haste, ignorance, or misdirection? Over time, this would produce a character more aligned to the place you have created in EVE.



I agree with this - you should be able to reallocate a fixed number of skill point s each year.

I trained RE 5 a long time ago when 100% refine was standard. Now its a lot less useful. It would be nice to retrain to something that is. Limited skill remapping would still make career path an important choice, but provide some measure of forgiveness for errors or CCP changing the rules.
Liafcipe9000
Critically Preposterous
#322 - 2015-04-16 13:34:45 UTC
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
this thread still exists?! Evil


It's like > /dev/null for bad SP ideas Big smile

Lol
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#323 - 2015-04-16 13:44:38 UTC
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
Corraidhin Farsaidh wrote:
Liafcipe9000 wrote:
this thread still exists?! Evil


It's like > /dev/null for bad SP ideas Big smile

Lol


I'd say it's 50:50 that EvE ships run on some quantum bit version of UNIX Big smile
Coldures
State War Academy
Caldari State
#324 - 2015-04-17 14:20:22 UTC
As I sit here reading this post at first I was excited, I thought finally I get to go back and swap out all those SP's I wasted as a noob, then it dawned on me, just like my real life, my mistakes and misguided adventures have made me into the person I am.

So is it true in the game. we are who we are. if you make it where all I have to do is buy a few PLEX's and I can wipe all my past away in the blink of an eye I would cease to be the toon many people have come to know.

So PAY TO WIN is not even remotely a funny idea. stop and think you get a 1 day old toon he sees a bright shiny Kronos fly by... Now in reality he is a year out from that ship (all supporting skills at lvl 5). but what does he do he goes and gets daddies credit card buys 10 PLEX's and BAM! this one day old toon is now fully skilled to fly a Marauder!!! it would end EVE as it is.

So let not go the way of every other MMO out there LETS stay with the cold hard reality of being stuck with what you got.

PLEX for remaps don't see a real problem with that if you want to drop 800+ mil on PLEX or $20.00 on a PLEX to remap go for it. that want effect the true time based Skill Points system it only allows for limited manipulation of it.

Thanks
Cold
Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#325 - 2015-04-18 06:33:35 UTC
Let me ensure you that SP remap won't make you a different from whom you are. And noone is saying you could simply wipe all skill points to zero and then spread them as you like which brings you into a brand new role or specialization. It's about how in a gentle manner you could correct some of your steps consider them as mistakenly made or whatever. So once a year you have limited number of SP which you could if you want move from one area to another. And this feature costs something like plex aurum or isk. Like they did with body modification.

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Kyt Thrace
Lightspeed Enterprises
Goonswarm Federation
#326 - 2015-04-18 08:55:47 UTC
Just let me delete the skillpoints I do not want. i do not want the skillpoints back or the isk for the skillbooks. I am so OCD.

R.I.P. Vile Rat

Mag's
Azn Empire
#327 - 2015-04-18 09:09:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Let me ensure you that SP remap won't make you a different from whom you are.
Except it will.
Tiddle Jr wrote:
And noone is saying you could simply wipe all skill points to zero and then spread them as you like which brings you into a brand new role or specialization.
Except they are. That's exactly what many want.
Tiddle Jr wrote:
It's about how in a gentle manner you could correct some of your steps consider them as mistakenly made or whatever. So once a year you have limited number of SP which you could if you want move from one area to another. And this feature costs something like plex aurum or isk. Like they did with body modification.
Which so far, no one has given a good reason for.

Kyt Thrace wrote:
Just let me delete the skillpoints I do not want. i do not want the skillpoints back or the isk for the skillbooks.
I'd agree to that, but I doubt it will happen.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2015-04-21 12:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dror
Mag's wrote:
Quote


Not sure the implications that all SP ideas are about complete redistribution is helpful for the discussion.

As listed: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5653733#post5653733, and explained in more detail: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5657402#post5657402 -- the SP system is at least as negatively effective as it is helpful. Yet, it being so decent at keeping Supers a niche and it being so decent at keeping fresh play out of literally everything is very one-sided design, with nothing in favor of gameplay thereof.

If no idea can defend the limitations of SP, then that's the draw -- which is a lot more on topic than defending complete redistribution, if for nothing more than the encompassment of possibilities. The posts above list objective problems -- defined in, "abundance: allowing sandbox play".

Moreso, no idea can defend the probability that Super admission is possibly limited with just materials over arbitrary skill requirements, without development response. That's an interesting topic. Nothing assures that a Super stays on field but decent play (if the mechanics are provisional), so straight PLEXing for something is without sustain; and if it is at all semi-permanently problematic, then the market responding under the increased demand is inherently balancing.

Enjoy.

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.

Mag's
Azn Empire
#329 - 2015-04-22 08:18:10 UTC
Dror wrote:
Google translated quote.
Still waiting for a reason for this change.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Iroquoiss Pliskin
9B30FF Labs
#330 - 2015-04-22 12:11:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Iroquoiss Pliskin
I've been thinking about the whole SP remapping concept in general: The situation with the Ishtars after that fateful patch in Sept of 2013 would've been exacerbated had people been able to remap their SP.

The people who could fly Ishtars and immediately deployed them - that is great, then the people who started training towards them to also employ the new strategy & tactics - that is also fine, but an immediate avalanche of Ishtars post-patch would have been catastrophic. Perhaps, were such a concept like the remap take place, there could be a limit on how much SP you can reset on a 6-monthly, yearly basis?

You could essentially account for the that SP drift, so we don't get situations with overnight FOTM and meta shifts each significant update sharp. Smile Such a limit could also extend to the age of the character, or condition - the less total SP, the more Skillpoints would be available for remap, which could also help with new player retention.
Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#331 - 2015-04-22 12:56:43 UTC
How about simply not having remaps.

This eliminates the need for a major revamp of a system which is reasonably fair (depending on how you feel about learning implants), cannot be gamed and has worked perfectly well since the removal of ghost training some years ago.

True you can't buy your way into everything you want instantly but then I don't see delayed gratification as a bad thing for this game.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law

Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#332 - 2015-04-22 15:39:02 UTC
Shakuul wrote:
Loteaus Seaven wrote:
The way the skills are squired is a good example of delayed gratification.

Would it be a fair compromise if, like how we can remap once a year, we could change one skill per year, to correct an error made in haste, ignorance, or misdirection? Over time, this would produce a character more aligned to the place you have created in EVE.



I agree with this - you should be able to reallocate a fixed number of skill point s each year.

I trained RE 5 a long time ago when 100% refine was standard. Now its a lot less useful. It would be nice to retrain to something that is. Limited skill remapping would still make career path an important choice, but provide some measure of forgiveness for errors or CCP changing the rules.

Except this wasn't an error. This was you deciding you wanted RE 5 and gaining the benefit of the use of that skill for any amount of time (one day or ten years it doesn't matter). And no, CCP does not guarantee anything about the stats on the skills or the ships. If they decide they don't like the way RE 5 is playing out within the game they reserve the right to change it. And if you trained that skill you are stuck with whatever the new performance is.

No player in any MMO can reasonably expect that his griffin mount or hat of wizardry or Draek will ever stay the same in absolute or relative performance within whatever game he may be playing.

HTFU. And remember this thread is a dump to prevent the pollution of these forums with all these OCD and instant gratification threads from popping up all over, and again. It hasn't changed for ten years. It won't now. Learn to accept and/or love the skill system in this game. Period.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Javani
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2015-04-24 10:07:18 UTC
Defently nope!

This would be contar to the time base skill system.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#334 - 2015-04-26 04:41:24 UTC
Well like everyone else has said over and over, I totally agree. Buying SP is the dumbest idea i've heard in the forums and will definitely destroy Eve if implemented. HOWEVER i'm okay with the idea of allocating SP from one area to another in case CCP happens to nerf a particular ship class that was pretty good before some unfortunate pilots began training for them that became irrelevant by the time training for them ended (most people should know which class I'm talking about so I won't go into anymore details). It should only be allowed once a year and cost one plex per 2 mill SP allocated.
Daniela Doran
Doomheim
#335 - 2015-04-26 05:06:32 UTC
Iroquoiss Pliskin wrote:
I've been thinking about the whole SP remapping concept in general: The situation with the Ishtars after that fateful patch in Sept of 2013 would've been exacerbated had people been able to remap their SP.

The people who could fly Ishtars and immediately deployed them - that is great, then the people who started training towards them to also employ the new strategy & tactics - that is also fine, but an immediate avalanche of Ishtars post-patch would have been catastrophic. Perhaps, were such a concept like the remap take place, there could be a limit on how much SP you can reset on a 6-monthly, yearly basis?

You could essentially account for the that SP drift, so we don't get situations with overnight FOTM and meta shifts each significant update sharp. Smile Such a limit could also extend to the age of the character, or condition - the less total SP, the more Skillpoints would be available for remap, which could also help with new player retention.


As usual Iroquoiss your comments are relevant and thorough. The remapping has to be on a skill trained within the same year you wish to allocate elsewhere. As for limit, I say a remap of 4 mill SP per year for the cost of 2 plexes.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#336 - 2015-04-26 05:19:45 UTC
Coldures wrote:
As I sit here reading this post at first I was excited, I thought finally I get to go back and swap out all those SP's I wasted as a noob, then it dawned on me, just like my real life, my mistakes and misguided adventures have made me into the person I am.

So is it true in the game. we are who we are. if you make it where all I have to do is buy a few PLEX's and I can wipe all my past away in the blink of an eye I would cease to be the toon many people have come to know.

So PAY TO WIN is not even remotely a funny idea. stop and think you get a 1 day old toon he sees a bright shiny Kronos fly by... Now in reality he is a year out from that ship (all supporting skills at lvl 5). but what does he do he goes and gets daddies credit card buys 10 PLEX's and BAM! this one day old toon is now fully skilled to fly a Marauder!!! it would end EVE as it is.

So let not go the way of every other MMO out there LETS stay with the cold hard reality of being stuck with what you got.

PLEX for remaps don't see a real problem with that if you want to drop 800+ mil on PLEX or $20.00 on a PLEX to remap go for it. that want effect the true time based Skill Points system it only allows for limited manipulation of it.

Thanks
Cold

You realize when they decided to let people buy characters your nightmare scenario of getting Daddys credit card to jump straight into a marauder was realized. The idea of paid remapping / skillpoints (while I am entirely against any pay to win) is nowhere near as bad.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Tiddle Jr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#337 - 2015-04-26 05:56:37 UTC
Peoples do complain against remapping as it some sort of disease which make them sick if it's ever happens.

What's wrong with it? Do i miss something ?

"The message is that there are known knowns. There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we don't know" - CCP

Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#338 - 2015-04-27 01:13:35 UTC
Tiddle Jr wrote:
Peoples do complain against remapping as it some sort of disease which make them sick if it's ever happens.

What's wrong with it? Do i miss something ?

Yes. It exacerbates FOTM chasing. And that will still help older players more. They will have more so to reallocate and put spec skills to 5 instead of 4.

Additionally it goes against everything EVE is and what makes it a different game from all the other MMOS. Your character can lose his Shiney possessions and even sp. Although now only with a stray cruiser loss.

Lastly a person has usually gained some benefit from sp they later might prefer to have trained differently. CCP issues no guarantee that in game item will stay the same. Rebalancing is how things are adjusted and made better in this game. It is not by granting everyone a reroll. Live with it.

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Dustpuppy
New Eden Ferengi
#339 - 2015-04-27 14:47:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dustpuppy
Kueyen wrote:

[...]and I fail to see any reason why people shouldn't be able to dump (parts of) a skill (lets say for argument's sake "no refunds at all"). The only thing that needs checking is if the skill is a prerequisite for another skill the character currently has. If so, the skill can't be reduced below the level that still matches the prerequisite (this includes skills that the character doesn't actually already have at necessary prerequisite levels, due to skill tree changes). If the skill is reduced to 0 SP, it gets eliminated from the stat sheet (no skill book refund).
[...]


Like many others I don't like this idea. It makes no logical sense, or have you e.g. been able in school to forget anything what you have learned about a foreign language and instantly got access to knowledge in maths in exchange?

I doubt you have because it would have made school much easier. Just spend enough time learning "something" to gather a pool of skill points and switch your knowledge from one area to another in case it's required for a test. At least my parents told me: you never know why you have learned something until you need it, and while the others are able to take away all your goods knowledge is something they can't take away.

This situation applies to EVE. Whatever you have learned is learned and can't and shouldn't be forgotten. If you enable a system where you can move around skill points from one area to another you render learning useless. All you need to enable your "godmode" is a pool of skill points which can be reassigned whenever you want. After that point learning would become useless.

There is a game out there were you can do this. A system was created where you could switch your knowledge and even keep 2 different types of skill selection in mind - and switch between them. It's WOW. This plus all the changes which wiped out the special characterization details made this game more user of child friendly but in the end there was no real role play left. Tanks suddenly were able to act as damage dealers and even in the role of the tank they were able to make damage. Why? Because people didn't like specialization. They wanted a god mode where everyone would be perfect in every role.

Don't do this to EVE. Whatever you do, it must have consequences - and choosing what you learn next also falls into this category. This is a game for the grown ups and not the children who want to play without thinking about tomorrow.
Joanna RB
JoJo Industries n Shipbreakers
#340 - 2015-04-27 19:49:31 UTC
If this is to happen, please let it be for straight isk rather than plex.

There are already FAR too many things assigned to plexes pushing the price of them north.

A Plex should be just that - a game time extension sellable on the open market. Not a third form of currency.

Multi character training, ship skins, aurum, character transfer, tickets for events ect. should be paid for by RL cash or isk. Not plexes.