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Latest CSM notes : Rumours of attribute points/implants being removed.

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SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1081 - 2015-02-17 21:26:14 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
i simply don't think that new players either being 'locked' in to one set of skills, or simply having to accept lower training times is good for the game. especially when CCP are trying to put a real effort in to attracting and retaining new players.
yeah, i suffered it, you suffered it... but there's really no reason why new players have to suffer it too - what does that actually achieve?


What does ship loss achieve? Or losing access to a station with your stuff just because the new owners aren't your friends. What does allowing high sec ganking achieve? What does not having local in WH achieve? Those are all arbitrary game play/mechanic choices made by CCP which could easily be changed by following the "it would just be easier" logic.


Also, I "suffer" it still every day. I have many alts and projects with new characters. Not 2 weeks ago I opened a new account and and fully training up 3 characters on that one (ie 3 plex a month). As I stated earlier, it would benefit me personally if they'd remove remaps and learning implants.

But this is EVE and every time someone mentions "wouldn't it just be easier if we'd remove choice and risk" I'll start kicking and screaming unless I am/get convinced that it's actually better that way (like clone cost).

What about those of us who only have one character to use?
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1082 - 2015-02-17 21:37:12 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
If I wanted to play WOW I would just play WOW or SWTOR, but you know what? WOW/SWTOR is for pussies, there's no risk, and no penalty for death and dying. If you go into battle you risk nothing.

Tell you what, when your ship respawns back in station with your skill hardwiring implants that you had when you get podded, then we will have WOW in space, till then Eve is still Eve learning implants or not.



That's my point, this is a slippery slope, if we allow any more of this, what you've described is exactly what we'll end up with.

Maybe we should slide it the other way. Have it so once anything is built in the game it expires after 24 hours and disappears. That way we can move further away from being like WoW, right? Roll
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1083 - 2015-02-17 21:41:40 UTC
I don't get it.. I mean I'm not a band new char, but nor have I been around for 10 years. I remember when I started. I saw remaps early on, within my first few days, but having a little common sense, didn't touch em cause I had no idea what they were. A month or so in, I sat down and looked it all up. I asked in Corp (NPC Corp I might add) and read sections on the forums/wiki/etc.

I don't feel like I started out disadvantaged. I mean "technically" yes I start out not maxed to the skill I'm training that second, but apart from VERY specific skill plans, starting out with a general even spread map is idea for at least the first few months. I feel like I started out with an advantage yet to be taped. What I mean by that is I start up with a general map, and 3 remaps to use, When I want. And when I know how. It's no different that a new player starting out with some skills, or some knowledge. I didn't know how useful Thermodynamics was until I started Incursioning. So for years I was at a disadvantage, one that likely cost me far more than a few months of sub-optimal training ever did.

Eve is a game that rewards you for the time you put in. Not like other games in SP for kills or anything, but rewards you in your knowledge. Knowing what skills to train, tactics to use, and how to use remaps are all part of that.

Anyone crying over a little less SP/hr than potential max.. HTFU. Nothing is stopping you from maxing it out (apart from as I said before, the silly limit to remaps an NO way to get more). Wasted your remap? Well that's your fault. Just like if you cashed in a PLEX to buy a shiny ship and died in it. It's not the games fault.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1084 - 2015-02-17 21:52:35 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

The biggest concern about implants that affect training speed as such is that they don't make in-space gameplay more fun, and in fact provide an incentive to sit in station or log off instead. A better design would be one that encourages playing the game now instead of waiting for later to do so.

Looks like grasping at straws, throwing out any excuse whatsoever to justify removing attribute implants when the real reason is money..

The biggest reason why players no longer log into the game is the skill queue. Basically allowing long term uninterrupted skill training which encourages players to do repeating yearly subscriptions.

The removal of attribute implants turns skill training plans into a longer time sink, thus generating more income over time.

Seems we're back to the ole 'Greed Is Good' mentality again, just another way of squeezing more money out of 'The Golden Goose'.




DMC



'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Dave Stark
#1085 - 2015-02-17 21:59:24 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:

The biggest concern about implants that affect training speed as such is that they don't make in-space gameplay more fun, and in fact provide an incentive to sit in station or log off instead. A better design would be one that encourages playing the game now instead of waiting for later to do so.

Looks like grasping at straws, throwing out any excuse whatsoever to justify removing attribute implants when the real reason is money..

The biggest reason why players no longer log into the game is the skill queue. Basically allowing long term uninterrupted skill training which encourages players to do repeating yearly subscriptions.

The removal of attribute implants turns skill training plans into a longer time sink, thus generating more income over time.

Seems we're back to the ole 'Greed Is Good' mentality again, just another way of squeezing more money out of 'The Golden Goose'.




DMC





he's pretty much right. i'd rather log off than risk my +4s.

my SP/hour means more to me than pvping.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#1086 - 2015-02-17 22:11:39 UTC
Tia Aves wrote:
Commander Spurty wrote:
You guys keep talking about RISK, but really now .. is there 'RISK' in EVE any more or just 'Juicy Kill mails'?

Honestly, EVE ONLINE was a lot more exciting when people cared about losing their stuff as it was hard to replace and not about being on the wrong side of a killmail.

If you want to reintroduce RISK to the game, TAX all players on their assets. Got 999 Ships in your station? You got yourself 999 TAX bills to pay. Don't worry, you wont go into a negative wallet, CONCORD or some NPC will just remove your assets.

True ISK Sink set.

Why a TAX bill? Law of the game i suppose (if you needed a reason, this should do). Crews need feeding and paying (unless you're Amarr, I guess)

Crews? But I'm a mighty pod pilot, I don't need no stinking crew! Am I making this all up? Nope.

Quote:
Finally, the solution evolved from the stationary defenses of all things. The Gallenteans
had employed mines for a long time with so-so results, but with the massive advances in
robotics technology taking place at this time the mines were slowly transformed into a
far deadlier object. The first drones were little more than mines with proximity
detonators and some limited moving capabilities, but soon they had advanced to the
level that a single drone almost rivaled a solo-fighter’s capabilities. The fact that drones
were many times cheaper to build than fighters and didn’t require a highly trained pilot
meant that the days of the solo-fighters were numbered. The drones reversed the tide
of the war and now the Caldari were scrambling to come up with a solution against
these new weapons. It didn’t take them that long - they simply upgraded their fighters a
bit, added some shields and extra weapons and called the new vessels frigates. Some
extra crew was also needed at first, but then the Caldari obtained capsule technology
from the Jovians some years later and could again reduce the crew to one on most
frigates.
- you need more then one person to pilot just a frigate, it soon ramps up (and fast) as you go up ship sizes.

- citation needed .. er http://go-dl.eve-files.com/media/0911/Chronicals.pdf

so TL;DR = RISK needs to be buffed, we have too many assets nullifying Risk. Strip excess ISK and Assets by TAXATION and remove the inhibitors to RISK.

Now, lets see who balks at this as all they really want is one of those 'juicy killmails'.

I'm guessing you really weren't after risk at all you little liars!


This is the thread about learning implants and attributes buddy I think you must of got lost somewhere on the way here.


As bizarre as that sounds, I kinda like it. It does what a ton of people want (get people out of stations), stops them from amassing 300+ ships, etc. unfortunately something like this only affects highsec, lowsec and npc nullsec. You could do this in sov null and give the owner the ability to set a storage fee.

Anything in a pos is exempt.

I do see marketers complaining and hoarders (there are a lot of them). Also throwing people into the current pos mechanic is a recipie for disaster. Not a bad concept but a few years too early.

Yaay!!!!
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1087 - 2015-02-17 23:01:18 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:

The biggest concern about implants that affect training speed as such is that they don't make in-space gameplay more fun, and in fact provide an incentive to sit in station or log off instead. A better design would be one that encourages playing the game now instead of waiting for later to do so.

Looks like grasping at straws, throwing out any excuse whatsoever to justify removing attribute implants when the real reason is money..

The biggest reason why players no longer log into the game is the skill queue. Basically allowing long term uninterrupted skill training which encourages players to do repeating yearly subscriptions.

The removal of attribute implants turns skill training plans into a longer time sink, thus generating more income over time.

Seems we're back to the ole 'Greed Is Good' mentality again, just another way of squeezing more money out of 'The Golden Goose'.




DMC





he's pretty much right. i'd rather log off than risk my +4s.

my SP/hour means more to me than pvping.



That's your choice.

Doesn't mean we need to change the system because you are risk averse.
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#1088 - 2015-02-17 23:03:29 UTC
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
If I wanted to play WOW I would just play WOW or SWTOR, but you know what? WOW/SWTOR is for pussies, there's no risk, and no penalty for death and dying. If you go into battle you risk nothing.

Tell you what, when your ship respawns back in station with your skill hardwiring implants that you had when you get podded, then we will have WOW in space, till then Eve is still Eve learning implants or not.



That's my point, this is a slippery slope, if we allow any more of this, what you've described is exactly what we'll end up with.

Maybe we should slide it the other way. Have it so once anything is built in the game it expires after 24 hours and disappears. That way we can move further away from being like WoW, right? Roll



Well that is just silly and not really a contribution to the discussion at hand. If that's all you can come up with then sadly, it seems that you have lost the argument.

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#1089 - 2015-02-17 23:12:34 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

The biggest concern about implants that affect training speed as such is that they don't make in-space gameplay more fun, and in fact provide an incentive to sit in station or log off instead. A better design would be one that encourages playing the game now instead of waiting for later to do so.



If this is indicative of CCP's thinking then you might as well get rid of skills and SP totally. Just have it so that all capsuleers can fly all ships and operate all equipment and guns that way you can quickly get to your real long term goal of PAY TO WIN!

Just have it so that people can buy plex, buy what they like and then fly it without any of that pesky training at all. Better yet, have it so that if they lose it all after undock, that it all just respawns in station.

You might get 13,000,000 people online then, but I for one won't be one of them.

Don't forget the only game that CCP has ever made that has successfully paid the bills is Eve Online. There's a variety of reasons for this, but it seems to me you are getting rid of all of those reasons one step at a time.

A recovering btter vet,  with a fresh toon and a determination to like everything that CCP does to Eve...

Don't take me too seriously though, I like to tease a bit on the forums, but that's only because I love you...
Silent Cyborg
Fusion Enterprises Ltd
Pandemic Horde
#1090 - 2015-02-17 23:41:28 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:
I'll again offer my caveat that I'm not on the team considering possible changes to the attribute system, just engaging in the conversation and speaking for another point of view.

Leannor wrote:
I agree, where is the issue here? You know the score, you know what at risk, you know what the options are. You make a choice, and you either get SP epeen, or ability Epeen. People have different priorities. For every vet out there bragging about how many SP they have, there's a hundred more dedicated lesser SP person than could woop their ass in whatever they do. Be it mission, mining or fighting.


There are a couple of specific issues with how this system currently works that make it less than ideal, both related to the new player experience:

1) Most new players learn about the full impact of the attribute system very late, and because the effect of the system is cumulative (the degree to which person A with a less-optimal remap falls behind person B with an optimal remap increases over time) it's frustrating for new players to discover, months into the game, that they've possibly left a lot of skill points on the table.

(This differs crucially from the case where a new player discovers that they've been training what, for whatever reason, they consider the wrong thing, because at least they've probably been participating in gameplay in the meantime that takes advantage of that choice.)

2) A new player who for some reason fully understands the attribute system on day 1 and can't bear to play suboptimally faces an optimal choice of starting with an int/mem remap and training mainly tons of support and drone skills that should be at V, deferring for months the ship and weapon system skills that widen the range of what they can do in the game. This player, like the player in (1), isn't having much fun either.

Those two issues add up to a system that more severely punishes new players (whether they know the system or not) who experiment or dabble in skills, and I think one could make a very good argument that such experimentation is essential for new players to try a range of activities in the game and find their place.

Note that I haven't said a word about the impact of fitting implants on PvP. :)


Sounds to me like CCP has already made up its mind and this 'presentation' to the CSM is just another smoke screen of we are doing this and we dont care what pilots think.

in reference to the points the dev made about 'Most new players learn about the full impact of the attribute system very late' then there is a simple idea:
Write a guide in your wiki you do everything else! even as simple as making a character 'https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Character_creation'

Please re-frame from 'improving' stuff that people do not complain about and please improve areas people have been begging about for years *cough* POS's *cough* *cough*
Memphis Baas
#1091 - 2015-02-18 00:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
Mharius Skjem wrote:
You might get 13,000,000 people online then, but I for one won't be one of them.


Good argument there; CCP will definitely avoid even the POSSIBILITY of $187.5 million in monthly revenue in order to keep a quality player in the game.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1092 - 2015-02-18 00:55:47 UTC
Syn Shi wrote:


That's your choice.

Doesn't mean we need to change the system because you are risk averse.


It means there is a bad system which rewards you for not undocking.
If you don't like CCP's proposal, find a better solution.

This solution needs to not be an XP grind system.
It needs to not encourage players to mono track, and punish exploring new skill sets.
It needs to not disadvantage new players.
It needs to not have only bad choices associated with it.

So far, not a single person has come up with a system that achieves that except CCP. This strongly suggests to me that the entire system is exactly as flawed as learning skills were, and needs ripping out just the same.
SilentAsTheGrave
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1093 - 2015-02-18 01:20:30 UTC
Mharius Skjem wrote:
SilentAsTheGrave wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Mharius Skjem wrote:
If I wanted to play WOW I would just play WOW or SWTOR, but you know what? WOW/SWTOR is for pussies, there's no risk, and no penalty for death and dying. If you go into battle you risk nothing.

Tell you what, when your ship respawns back in station with your skill hardwiring implants that you had when you get podded, then we will have WOW in space, till then Eve is still Eve learning implants or not.



That's my point, this is a slippery slope, if we allow any more of this, what you've described is exactly what we'll end up with.

Maybe we should slide it the other way. Have it so once anything is built in the game it expires after 24 hours and disappears. That way we can move further away from being like WoW, right? Roll



Well that is just silly and not really a contribution to the discussion at hand. If that's all you can come up with then sadly, it seems that you have lost the argument.

Just following the slippery slope fallacy that is being spouted that changing the current system to something with interesting choices that are enjoyable to engage in magically transports the game into WoW.

It's like some of you want the game to be as frustrating as possible - just because. That and there is that obvious sentiment to punish new players as long as the established ones don't endure the same arbitrary mechanics in a painful way.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1094 - 2015-02-18 01:24:29 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:


That's your choice.

Doesn't mean we need to change the system because you are risk averse.


It means there is a bad system which rewards you for not undocking.
If you don't like CCP's proposal, find a better solution.

This solution needs to not be an XP grind system.
It needs to not encourage players to mono track, and punish exploring new skill sets.
It needs to not disadvantage new players.
It needs to not have only bad choices associated with it.

So far, not a single person has come up with a system that achieves that except CCP. This strongly suggests to me that the entire system is exactly as flawed as learning skills were, and needs ripping out just the same.

No, the system rewards you for having implants, whether docked or undocked. The choice to not undock is linked to fear of losing a pod, but that manifests differently for different people. This is not some absolute with the way everyone reacts and also gives reason and purpose to having various levels of implants.

Also there is an issue with making a suggestion. First, no concrete plan has been proposed. Second, there is a lack of a fundamental idea of the full goal. Is it just the implants? What about attributes which have been mentioned? How far does it go and what is the end goal?

Right not it seems like the goal hinted at is bad. For instance, if it doesn't "punish" new players that means that old players cannot draw relative advantages from it. There can be no gain from experience, greater resources or understanding. To not lock players in (which it doesn't save again by individual choice) it means that it needs all skills to be equal to train in any circumstance removing any elements of long term planning or gaming for advantage.

In other words the goals you state remove any room for dynamics for players to work with beyond "what's next on my list." And with no game to play in the system it becomes more stale than currently, being just a flat time barrier. This doesn't create a good mechanic either. But if YOU have a solution that works around that I'd be glad to know what it was.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1095 - 2015-02-18 01:25:18 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:


That's your choice.

Doesn't mean we need to change the system because you are risk averse.


It means there is a bad system which rewards you for not undocking.
If you don't like CCP's proposal, find a better solution.

This solution needs to not be an XP grind system.
It needs to not encourage players to mono track, and punish exploring new skill sets.
It needs to not disadvantage new players.
It needs to not have only bad choices associated with it.

So far, not a single person has come up with a system that achieves that except CCP. This strongly suggests to me that the entire system is exactly as flawed as learning skills were, and needs ripping out just the same.



It doesn't mean it a bad system.

It means you choose to be risk averse and avoid pvp.
Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#1096 - 2015-02-18 01:28:20 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Syn Shi wrote:


That's your choice.

Doesn't mean we need to change the system because you are risk averse.


It means there is a bad system which rewards you for not undocking.
If you don't like CCP's proposal, find a better solution.

This solution needs to not be an XP grind system.
It needs to not encourage players to mono track, and punish exploring new skill sets.
It needs to not disadvantage new players.
It needs to not have only bad choices associated with it.

So far, not a single person has come up with a system that achieves that except CCP. This strongly suggests to me that the entire system is exactly as flawed as learning skills were, and needs ripping out just the same.


By this logic, expensive ships and mods are bad for the game because the risk-adverse are afraid to undock and PVP in them. We should make all things cost 100 isk like on SiSi. Then ppl will use all the nifty ships in the game and PVP more.


\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1097 - 2015-02-18 01:38:49 UTC
why CCPees wouldn't be able to stomach these debates, I have no idea.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Lady Rift
His Majesty's Privateers
#1098 - 2015-02-18 01:48:39 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
CCP Darwin wrote:

The biggest concern about implants that affect training speed as such is that they don't make in-space gameplay more fun, and in fact provide an incentive to sit in station or log off instead. A better design would be one that encourages playing the game now instead of waiting for later to do so.

Looks like grasping at straws, throwing out any excuse whatsoever to justify removing attribute implants when the real reason is money..

The biggest reason why players no longer log into the game is the skill queue. Basically allowing long term uninterrupted skill training which encourages players to do repeating yearly subscriptions.

The removal of attribute implants turns skill training plans into a longer time sink, thus generating more income over time.

Seems we're back to the ole 'Greed Is Good' mentality again, just another way of squeezing more money out of 'The Golden Goose'.

DMC


The real biggest concern is that the dev that is posting in here has nothing to do with the team that would be implementing this change. So can't actually answer any of our questions as its all his opinion or at best second hand information that might be old by the time he tells us
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1099 - 2015-02-18 02:04:04 UTC
CCP Darwin wrote:

While I wouldn't want to paint my game design colleagues into a corner, I don't believe that implants are going anywhere. Only learning implants are in question.


They don't need to go anywhere. Their price and method of obtaining them should be adjusted (industry, BPOs - or more simplistic but equivalent - lesser isk/lp cost). +1 to +4 should be equivalent of ships' T1 rigs for head. +5 (and maybe stronger ones) should be around T2 rigs for head.

CCP Darwin wrote:
There have been suggestions in this thread and elsewhere that learning implants with flat learning speed bonuses might work in an attribute-free world.


Attribute-free world is dumbing the game down. You should be fixing and improving it, not dumbing it down.

Main issue with attributes is rigid one year cycles. This is what is broken - not the attributes themselves. Make it flexible, fine grained and in player's hands (highsec booster industry, 1 month nominal spacing, subject to neurotoxin skills as well).

Quote:
I think replacing learning speed implants with alternatives that encourage rather than discourage undocking is more likely, but I don't think anyone has yet come to any conclusions about what form that might take.


Solutions above, more detailed outline here. Use it or use some other ideas - but for goodness' sake - don't dumb the game down again. It's received enough of that in past months.

Quote:
(Not that you'd necessarily pick them over learning implants in a head-to-head choice, but that you'd look at them and think "Wow, I'd like to undock with that plugged in.")


That's not gonna happen in reality. Every undocking is risk vs reward. Whether you use new blingy T3 destoryer, a bit cheaper T2 AF or a dirt cheap rifter with cheapest meta mods on market.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Memphis Baas
#1100 - 2015-02-18 03:13:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
As a counter argument, I see people showing off their bling ship in the newbie systems a lot. They undock and sit there, while all the newbies gawk and make praise comments. Same as in WOW where you get the newest flying griphon or whatever and spend several hours hovering in front of the city gates.

Haven't seen a single person undocking in an average ship and sitting there trying to show off their implants. Possibly cause you can't show off implants. Wish we could show off our outfits, but CCP isn't implementing a pub any time soon. Anyway, where was I? Oh yeah, counter argument. Some ships ARE promoting undocking, for however briefly.