EVE General Discussion

You also go on to state in your previous posts that buying in game items with in game resources is Pay to Win. Your redefining what Pay to Win is as I stated before.

You keep saying young pilots cant compete. Having actual pvp experience against younger pilots in the militia I call BS on your claim. I can tell you with first hand knowledge that young pilots in the militia learn how to pvp in frigates very fast and can kill a vet whether that vet has implants or not.

PVP is more than just buying the most expensive ship you can fly, warping to zero, then pressing the fire button. You cant just throw isk at pvp and expect to win. Everyone who has pvp'd for any length of time understands this.

You are purposefully stating the exact opposite of what Pay to Win is, purposefully saying the exact opposite of what someone is saying so you can turn the debate something totally different than that person stated, and purposefully saying that young pilots dont stand a chance against yets when clearly they do.

You are trolling.

You're stating things I have not said or Implied, trying to accuse ME of saying "newbies can't compete" is, frankly, hilarious. If only you knew.

You're picking on details and not wanting to see the bigger picture. ON AVERAGE there'll be more pilots with combat related implants which ON AVERAGE means that they will have the advantage which ON AVERAGE means people will try and compensate for it, so just as (per this whole discussion, you might check the thread a bit) people tend to go "I'll wait till I have # SP and I'll use remaps for it" (which is terrible) they'll now go "I'll wait till I can afford # implants and I'll use plex for it".

And that's just small scale. Guess what happens if in larger fleets people aren't "held back" anymore by the lure of learning implants, it'll be yet another advantage stacked squarely in favour of the "establishment", because as they can pay for lol fleets they can also pay for lol implants. And if there's no learning implants anymore to help to get more people into theyr Scaps then they'll use that isk for other stuff; combat implants.

Which means that people who are newer to it all, upstarts in terms of alliances, people who want to gnaw at the current status quo have yet ANOTHER hurdle to take, ANOTHER advantage the "haves" have.


learning implants are pay2advance, combat implants are pay2win. Removing learning implants messes up the balance and turns "everything" into pay2win. I honestly don't see how one could disagree with that. That or you're just throwing the "trolling" card because you disagree with what I'm saying, that's also possible.

Ah, I see the issue. I didn't necessarily mean "compete" as in actually fighting, You're completely correct in that it doesn't necessarily determine the outcome of a fight (although on average it does help skewing it to one side of course, which is the whole point) I meant competing wallet wise.



If "everyone" uses slave implants then most people will thus try and get them as well, to get on a more even playing field. If those are newer players who lack the income to (comfortably) use and lose those they will have to revert to plex for isk. Which makes it P2W.

Jezus fck you're thick.


:added for content:

I know that, you know that, some others know that.

The majority of ppl in EVE are F1 pushing, lol fleet, mission grinding, "I must sit in station with my +5" folks. They are the majority and they will react as stated.

If you keep not getting the point then, yeah at some point one has to come to that conclusion.

THIS WHOLE THREAD is about how PEOPLE (on average) will react to these possible changes, and PEOPLE (on average) aren't competent solo/small gang pvpers who understand how **** works. There's a reason lol blob alliances are so big.

And thus I'm talking about how PEOPLE (on average) will react to this.



You just want learning implants gone, so you can start using combat implants or at least get high sp/h. QED.

Lets have a recap:

You:
1) Learning implants are good, removing learning implants is bad.
2) Players buying Pay2Win combat implants is bad because players can buy more expensive combat implants than others.
3) On average, people will use more Pay2Win combat implants, then on average people will buy more combat implants to compete, which is also bad.
4) People using plex to buy a specific type of Pay2Win combat implant is bad as well because they dont have enough in game isk compared to older players
5) More people using Pay2Win combat implants is bad because it upsets 'the balance' and turns everything into pay2win, which is bad
6) Competing is not defined as fighting and has been redefined to the size of ones wallet when buying.... combat implants....which has to do with fighting.... which is bad
7) Losing expensive Pay2Win combat implants is bad because people will have to use plex to get another set, which is Pay2Win
8) Finally you say the majority of people cant fight and then turn right back around and say the whole thread is about the average players reactions to the removal of learning implants.

Your entire premise is based on Eve not being fair to new players, what you call average players, and finally most players because most players cant fight. Your debating that Eve should be more fair.

If you want "fair", I suggest you play on the Singularity test server where everyone has access to most everything for 100 isk and you dont need plex.

Edit:
Eve is a game that is completely unfair. The player must overcome all kinds of adversity to succeed. Overcoming the odds is what makes the game fun for most of us.

Since when is pointing out a troll as a troll an insult. Unless you yourself actually believe he is sincere.

Let me ask you a few questions to ensure that I understand your stance.
You are against removing leaning implants because people will take that isk they would have spent in implants and put it towards combat implants? (Feel free to correct this to whatever statement you wish.)
Extending the previous statement: If learning implants are removed then everyone will run around with combat implants? (Feel free to correct this to whatever statement you wish.)
Extending the first statement: If learning implants are removed then you believe that everyone will fill those slots with snakes, slaves, etc. (Feel free to correct this to whatever statement you wish.)
You believe that combat implants are pay to win? (Again, feel free to correct this to whatever statement you wish.)

I will ask some more when you reply. Just laying a ground floor as you what your statements are.

So... When do we get to buy skill points? (SP)

Alright. Thank you for posting your concrete ideas. It helped clear up many questions I had.

So you say that combat implants are Pay to Win. I think we can both agree that Pay to Win means that you are paying for some advantage that in many cases isn't fair. You are a smart man. You know that slaves boost your armor amount, crystals give you more shield repair, snakes make you go faster. You also understand that there are hardwiring and Omega implants that use slots not used by learning implants. So why is that many pods do not have hardwiring combat implants in them if the implants are pay to win?

You and I can both judge risk and reward. Currently pirate implants offer a bonus that you have deemed Pay to Win and an attribute boost. For this point I assume use of high grade implants which give a +4 attribute boost and a perfect remap. Seeing how you have determined that pirate implants, under the category of combat implants, are pay to win wouldn't it make sense that the advantages presented in the pirate implants outweighs a mere 90 SP/hour? So why do we not see more pods with pirate implants? Why do we see learning implants below the level of +4 attribute increase when there are better Pay to Win pirate implants readily available for purchase (aside from the lack of cybernetics V)?

What about combat boosters? Many of these boosters have effects that put +6% implants to shame (+30% armor or shield boost anyone? Perhaps a 37.5% tracking boost is more your style?) If a +6% implant is Pay to Win then these must surely be pay to win. I have excellent booster skills so I can frequently use these combat boosters without incurring a meaningful penalty. So why are there fewer people like me that use boosters without any penalties if they put many implants to shame and, by extension of your argument, are pay to win?

You cited many, many things that give pilots an edge in combat. Combat implants, gang links, I'll toss in combat boosters, faction/storyline/officer mods, etc. Heck we will even give them the benefit of the doubt and toss in AT ships. So why do they die (older KM. The fit shows up as cargo)? If paying for every advantage in the book still won't prevent you from dying to a tiny amount of pilots then how can these items be pay to win?

I think that what we are realizing is that your assertions that combat implants are pay to win simply aren't true. They do give an edge, but fall flat when the enemy brings more than you can handle. In Eve skill and having friends gives you far more power than any combat implants will. In addition, your assertions that if learning implants were removed the combat implants would become ubiquitous isn't true either. If they were true then we would see far more hardwiring combat implant use and far more pirate implant use as the advantages of the implants outweighs the loss of 90SP/hour.

In addition, CCP has already put measures into place to limit the advantage of bigger/better items. Back when CCP Fozzie rebalanced battleships I asked him why he felt it necessary to make BS so expensive compared to cruisers or BCs. He replied with what I have coined as the CCP Fozzie Linerar Power Increase for Exponential Cost Theorem. It is just what it sounds like. The reason a BS is so much more expensive is that it is a linear power upgrade at an exponential cost. Implants, combat and learning, work the exact same way. A +1 implants cost under 2 mil isk. A +5% implant costs 100 mil isk. So even if your worst fear of combat implants being pay to win and appearing everywhere is realized (I know I showed it wouldn't because if it were to happen it already would have) the new player would have to pay far less isk to shrink the gap between them and the isk rich player. All that isk really is only going to buy the isk rich player a 2-3% advantage at best if the new player buys +3 implants. I know that 2-3% sometimes is the difference in fights, but that 2-3% advantage can easily be negated through....wait for it... skill and friends.

I applaud you for putting forth a valiant argument. Unfortunately, it simply isn't true.