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Okay, so, seriously.

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Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2015-01-24 14:44:37 UTC
I wonder why this simple and sensible thing can't work:

1. Logos are owned by whoever created them

2. If the author wants logos in CCP's game, he/she needs to grant CCP permission to use it

3. Also, the author takes responsibility for any copyright infringement of the logo itself

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#42 - 2015-01-24 19:15:56 UTC
And now that the day 4 minutes are out:

The hold up on alliance logos into game, is now technical. There have been a few changes to the graphics engine (you might have noticed) and CCP wants to get the new technical requirements for alliance logos hammed out, before taking any new ones (so it's not 'submit, then have to submit again a few months later because it turns out you didn't have an alpha channel set)

Last page of http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM9-WS-D4.pdf

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#43 - 2015-01-24 19:19:05 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
And now that the day 4 minutes are out:

The hold up on alliance logos into game, is now technical. There have been a few changes to the graphics engine (you might have noticed) and CCP wants to get the new technical requirements for alliance logos hammed out, before taking any new ones (so it's not 'submit, then have to submit again a few months later because it turns out you didn't have an alpha channel set)

Last page of http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/csm/Meetings/summit/CSM9-WS-D4.pdf

HUZZAH!
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#44 - 2015-01-24 20:19:39 UTC
Here I was thinking we elected CSM representatives, not a bunch of yes-men.
Watermarks are stupid. They're going to look stupid. Furthermore they're completely unnecessary.

CCP does not need ownership of the alliance logos in the game. All they need is an irrevocable, unconditional license to use.
That's what we've been telling them from the very beginning, and it's something they've completely ignored.

If you actually cared, Steve, you or ANYONE ELSE in attendance would have mentioned this license to use, but nobody did. I'm completely underwhelmed by your handling of this situation.

So the holdup is not technical. Again, instead of regurgitating what they told you, dig a little bit deeper. The holdup is organizational culture and nothing more. This can be resolved now without any changes to the game code.
Genevieve Bluecoat
The Good Place
#45 - 2015-01-24 20:44:47 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Games workshop got around this problem by saying that any imagery or art or modifications done within the context of their fiction or game universe automatically becomes their property upon submission. It was a blanket snatch&grab tactic but under british law apparently the only way to prevent arguments like this.


I wouldn't rush to mention GW. If they take an interest, Triumvirate have some explaining to do. Big smileBig smileBig smile
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#46 - 2015-01-24 23:55:31 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Here I was thinking we elected CSM representatives, not a bunch of yes-men.
Watermarks are stupid. They're going to look stupid. Furthermore they're completely unnecessary.

CCP does not need ownership of the alliance logos in the game. All they need is an irrevocable, unconditional license to use.
That's what we've been telling them from the very beginning, and it's something they've completely ignored.

If you actually cared, Steve, you or ANYONE ELSE in attendance would have mentioned this license to use, but nobody did. I'm completely underwhelmed by your handling of this situation.

So the holdup is not technical. Again, instead of regurgitating what they told you, dig a little bit deeper. The holdup is organizational culture and nothing more. This can be resolved now without any changes to the game code.



Are you a lawyer? do you have a degree in law? do you know the laws of every country on the plant?

if your answer is no, then i'm going with you prolly has no idea what you are talking about. The issue with a use license would be this (not a lawyer but i can figure this out)

I make a logo for "Random eve alliance a (REAA)" I submit the logo, grant ccp permission to use said logo and off we go. Now lets way after a year i stop playing eve. Lets say i no longer want my logo associated with eve, so i send them a notice that i now officially revoke there license. Lets say they miss said notice or disregard it, i cna now sue them for having the logo in game.

Take two. I make logo, put in game, quit eve. see eve using my logo on a tv show. I email ccp and say i revoke there right to said logo. Well guess what? I'm about to be sued.

A company can not use a license, for i can revoke it at any time. If you make it a contract where i can not revoke my license.. then what the **** is the point in giving a licenses anyway? CCP has to 100% own the logo, its the only way it will work.

I'm sure there are other issues involved as well

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Sugar Smacks
Khanid Royal Navy
Khanid.
#47 - 2015-01-25 00:05:10 UTC
Too me i wonder if the logos are held back due to the added lag.

I just see this Null fight where ships load then logos all need to load. Don't we have enough tidi?

Would the simpler solution be to just put peoples logos client side? I know you wouldn't be able to see everyone elses
logo but at least then you wouldn't create lag.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#48 - 2015-01-25 00:06:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
DaReaper wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Here I was thinking we elected CSM representatives, not a bunch of yes-men.
Watermarks are stupid. They're going to look stupid. Furthermore they're completely unnecessary.

CCP does not need ownership of the alliance logos in the game. All they need is an irrevocable, unconditional license to use.
That's what we've been telling them from the very beginning, and it's something they've completely ignored.

If you actually cared, Steve, you or ANYONE ELSE in attendance would have mentioned this license to use, but nobody did. I'm completely underwhelmed by your handling of this situation.

So the holdup is not technical. Again, instead of regurgitating what they told you, dig a little bit deeper. The holdup is organizational culture and nothing more. This can be resolved now without any changes to the game code.



Are you a lawyer? do you have a degree in law? do you know the laws of every country on the plant?

Several lawyers posted in that thread. One of them used to work for CCP. I'm basing this off their judgment.

DaReaper wrote:
I make a logo for "Random eve alliance a (REAA)" I submit the logo, grant ccp permission to use said logo and off we go. Now lets way after a year i stop playing eve. Lets say i no longer want my logo associated with eve, so i send them a notice that i now officially revoke there license. Lets say they miss said notice or disregard it, i cna now sue them for having the logo in game.

Not if it's an irrevocable license.

DaReaper wrote:
A company can not use a license, for i can revoke it at any time. If you make it a contract where i can not revoke my license.. then what the **** is the point in giving a licenses anyway? CCP has to 100% own the logo, its the only way it will work.

The point of giving them an irrevocable license instead of ownership is simple: if you give them an irrevocable license to use, neither of you has any say over what the other can do with the logo. If you give them ownership, they can come after you should you decide to put your logo on the T-shirt.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#49 - 2015-01-25 00:07:05 UTC
Sugar Smacks wrote:
Too me i wonder if the logos are held back due to the added lag.

I just see this Null fight where ships load then logos all need to load. Don't we have enough tidi?

Would the simpler solution be to just put peoples logos client side? I know you wouldn't be able to see everyone elses
logo but at least then you wouldn't create lag.

This has nothing to do with the discussion.
Vyl Vit
#50 - 2015-01-25 00:11:13 UTC
Speaking of law...like...anybody KNOW?

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Serene Repose
#51 - 2015-01-25 00:12:59 UTC
Vyl Vit wrote:
Speaking of law...like...anybody KNOW?
Glad you asked.
Q: What's the difference between a lawyer and God?
A: God doesn't think he's a lawyer.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Vapor Ventrillian
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2015-01-25 00:14:25 UTC
I am new and was unaware of this but you know..yolo dat sheet

maybe if a logo is worth Alliance logo was to considered for merchandising or ownership and lets be real, thousands of alliances exist and not all are worth the effort

why not simply give the decision to the whole alliance in a form of a ccp requested vote allocate a dead line and let the winner have it as a security precaution the alliance itself could run it own vote to confirm results

Let the Meta game begin *PL sells its rights for a goon players tomatoes*

The Evil Overlord of Scope, self elected as all good overlords should be
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#53 - 2015-01-25 00:20:01 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Here I was thinking we elected CSM representatives, not a bunch of yes-men.
Watermarks are stupid. They're going to look stupid. Furthermore they're completely unnecessary.

CCP does not need ownership of the alliance logos in the game. All they need is an irrevocable, unconditional license to use.
That's what we've been telling them from the very beginning, and it's something they've completely ignored.

If you actually cared, Steve, you or ANYONE ELSE in attendance would have mentioned this license to use, but nobody did. I'm completely underwhelmed by your handling of this situation.

So the holdup is not technical. Again, instead of regurgitating what they told you, dig a little bit deeper. The holdup is organizational culture and nothing more. This can be resolved now without any changes to the game code.



also the issue or royalties can come into play with this type of license, as i am the owner of said item, i am entitled to get paid. And all it will take is one jack ass with needs money and has the time to find a way to sue ccp for what they deem they are owed. Humans are greedy fucks. I'm going to let the lawyers and ccp technical figure this out so it saves there ass as well as mine,

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#54 - 2015-01-25 01:49:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Primary This Rifter
DaReaper wrote:
also the issue or royalties can come into play with this type of license, as i am the owner of said item, i am entitled to get paid.

No you're not, that's a stipulation of licenses that you issue. If you issue a license like what I described, you waive all claims to royalties, at least from CCP.

And if your argument is that people are just litigation-happy, ownership isn't really going to prevent that, especially when you get into the nitty-gritty of things like the fact that transfer of ownership may not even be legally possible for some of these copyright holders.

DaReaper wrote:
And all it will take is one jack ass with needs money and has the time to find a way to sue ccp for what they deem they are owed.

What a great idea! "I need money... so I'm going to hire a lawyer to sue on baseless grounds... because lawyers are free, right?"
Your scenario is absurd, and it doesn't take a lawyer to see that.
Ferni Ka'Nviiou
Doomheim
#55 - 2015-01-25 02:03:13 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
I make a logo for "Random eve alliance a (REAA)" I submit the logo, grant ccp permission to use said logo and off we go. Now lets way after a year i stop playing eve. Lets say i no longer want my logo associated with eve, so i send them a notice that i now officially revoke there license. Lets say they miss said notice or disregard it, i cna now sue them for having the logo in game.

Take two. I make logo, put in game, quit eve. see eve using my logo on a tv show. I email ccp and say i revoke there right to said logo. Well guess what? I'm about to be sued.

A company can not use a license, for i can revoke it at any time. If you make it a contract where i can not revoke my license.. then what the **** is the point in giving a licenses anyway? CCP has to 100% own the logo, its the only way it will work.

Alike you I am no lawyer.
But your point is nonetheless pretty to nullify.

I'm pretty sure you can't revoke an irrevocable license.

By definition,"irrevocable" means you can't revoke it.

Quote:
if your answer is no, then i'm going with you prolly has no idea what you are talking about. The issue with a use license would be this (not a lawyer but i can figure this out)
As a non-lawyer, I had no problem following the player-argument of using licenses.
Both CCP and the player's arguments seem to have the same outcome, but one is just excessively more complex.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-01-25 02:09:25 UTC
The 'embed something EVE-ish in each logo' workaround is idiotic, from a common sense perspective.

If that's what it takes to make logos work, then either the law is silly or the lawyers are silly. Maybe both?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Cancel Align NOW
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#57 - 2015-01-25 02:16:06 UTC
Irrevocable licenses with no associated royalties seem like a suitable solution. Have CCP said anywhere why they are not going down that path?
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc.
Arctic Light
#58 - 2015-01-25 02:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Godfrey Silvarna
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
If that's what it takes to make logos work, then either the law is silly or the lawyers are silly. Maybe both?

International copyright law is the worst kind of legal clusterfuck imaginable, and dealing with that mess does tend to drive lawyers a bit crazy. Law doesn't get any more complicated than that.

For consumers, the easy solution is to ignore the law, since no one will bother enforcing that mess anyways. Unfortunately, that doesn't exactly work for corporations such as CCP who will have to deal with the Escherian labyrinth of IP law it no matter how insane it is.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-01-25 02:26:27 UTC
Godfrey Silvarna wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
If that's what it takes to make logos work, then either the law is silly or the lawyers are silly. Maybe both?

International copyright law is the worst kind of legal clusterfuck imaginable, and dealing with that mess does tend to drive lawyers a bit crazy. Law doesn't get any more complicated than that.

For consumers, the easy solution is to ignore the law, since no one will bother enforcing that mess anyways. Unfortunately, that doesn't exactly work for corporations such as CCP who will have to deal with the Escherian labyrinth of IP law it no matter how insane it is.
Point taken, but then it boils down to evaluating the actual risk and accepting non-zero risk.

Or are CCP carebears? What happened to HTFU?

Out of curiosity, how did they solve it for the This Is Eve video? Does CCP now own all rights to Progod's voice?

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Kaelynne Rose
WTB Somalians
#60 - 2015-01-25 04:49:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Cancel Align NOW wrote:
Irrevocable licenses with no associated royalties seem like a suitable solution. Have CCP said anywhere why they are not going down that path?


Cuz they want ownersips of them. If goons sell their Bees in shirts, they wanna piece of the pie.

They said 1 year ago that all submissions became their ownership and their property.
As soon as players said No Way! Did all this BS technical lawyer LMAO AT CSM STEVE "techinical GRAPHIC" issues come in to existance.
They just made all this crap up after getting caught with they hand in cookie jar.


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.