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What about Off Grid Boosting?

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Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#361 - 2014-12-06 19:38:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
double post

original

Daemun of Khanid
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#362 - 2014-12-06 19:41:01 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
The offensive modules used by the enemy are observed by the losing ship, and stuff like points and webs and ECM are indeed shown on kill reports. Go check any kill board. The only caveat is that the last offensive module (if not a weapon) that gets a cycle on you before you die is recorded. So from that point of view, the kill report is very RP-accurate

Multiple modules are not shown for the offensive ship on kill reports. Are you saying a ship can't activate multiple offensive modules on a defender at time of death? It's not RP accurate at all.


Quote:
A ship is destroyed, a snapshot of the situation is taken at the last moment, and a communication is sent through gates to the proper authorities in order for various residual effects to occur, such as the payment of insurance, security rating adjustment for the attacker, etc etc. At no point does your ship magically know who was the booster that affected your enemies, and as such, that information can't get passed through.

You are taking this discussion down a path that has nothing to do with gameplay balance. Justifying mechanics using RP alone does not lend itself to a rational discussion. It's more of a religious discussion, since RP is a product of a story. RP is and always should be sacrificed in favor of a balanced gameplay mechanic.


Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
In a 2v1 scenario with OGB involved, the loss report should accurately show the situation as 2v1 instead of 1v1.

There's a lot more stuff we're going to have to add to kill reports if we're going to follow that line of reasoning, because boosting is hardly the only thing that's not shown on them that directly influences the outcome of a fight.

And I would argue each and every one of those things should be logged in a kill report. Otherwise all you're getting is "sort of" a kill report.


Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#363 - 2014-12-06 19:42:41 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
You are taking this discussion down a path that has nothing to do with gameplay balance. Justifying mechanics using RP alone does not lend itself to a rational discussion. It's more of a religious discussion, since RP is a product of a story. RP is and always should be sacrificed in favor of a balanced gameplay mechanic.

<3

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#364 - 2014-12-06 19:43:57 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Ogb is an ANOMALY in regard to the single most important meta mechanic at the very core of eve pvp: Risk vs Reward. That's why ogb "feels" like an exclusive possibility for players with a second account to bend the rules that otherwise apply for everyone. Like a game of rigged cards as I said earlier.

Another thing: Many proponenents of ogb suggested that removing ogb wouldn't change a thing since frigs "bitchslapping" eacher other, "pressing F1" (insert absurd notion of solo/small gang pvp here) would still die to a second accounts Falcon/Logi whatever.


The risk is you are utilizing a full second account. Instead of maxing out DPS, you are choosing links. Links take a lot less effort for multiboxing (dscan and warp) so you only get a ~20% benefit out of the second account.

It actually seems quite fair to me when you see it that way.

Since links contribute to combat, they should be subject to all of the penalties faced by a combat pilot (including visibility on kill reports).

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#365 - 2014-12-06 19:46:26 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Just an idea, I'm sure someone can find issues with it, but how about an anti-link module?


Given how claustrophobic ship fits can be, I'm guessing anything of this sort is going to be a waste of a slot. You are better off assessing the situation and picking a fight you have a better chance of winning.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#366 - 2014-12-06 19:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Sibyyl wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Just an idea, I'm sure someone can find issues with it, but how about an anti-link module?


Given how claustrophobic ship fits can be, I'm guessing anything of this sort is going to be a waste of a slot. You are better off assessing the situation and picking a fight you have a better chance of winning.



It should be. It should require a ship specifically fit to block links in order to counter a ship specifically fit to provide them. Otherwise there's an imbalance in cost/fitting efficiency. You shouldn't be able to shut down a 500mil+ link ship with any old ship throwing a module in an unused high slot.

Daemun of Khanid
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#367 - 2014-12-06 19:52:04 UTC
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
Just an idea, I'm sure someone can find issues with it, but how about an anti-link module?


Given how claustrophobic ship fits can be, I'm guessing anything of this sort is going to be a waste of a slot. You are better off assessing the situation and picking a fight you have a better chance of winning.



It should be. It should require a ship specifically fit to block links in order to counter a ship specifically fit to provide them. Otherwise there's an imbalance in cost/fitting efficiency. You shouldn't be able to shut down a 500mil+ link ship with any old ship throwing a module in an unused high slot.

eh. what about the fleet it's in.

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Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#368 - 2014-12-06 19:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Could you be more specific? It's a single ship solution to a single ship bonus mechanic.

Could also make it so that it only works if the link ship if off grid from the ships it's boosting. If the link ship is on grid then links should be guaranteed. Risk v reward.

Daemun of Khanid
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#369 - 2014-12-06 19:58:17 UTC
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#370 - 2014-12-06 20:00:48 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
link ships are usually in system with a fleet?

Not in lowsec. They are in system with their l33t but misnamed "solo" PvP main.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#371 - 2014-12-06 20:05:32 UTC
I boost for myself, and have two link booster characters (fyi). Alts are for odd things that uniboxers wouldn't do.

hell, I even keep a perfect mining booster character, and I don't mine.

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Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#372 - 2014-12-06 20:18:15 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
link ships are usually in system with a fleet?


Yes, but what about them? You aren't being very specific.

Daemun of Khanid
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#373 - 2014-12-06 20:30:26 UTC
RE: anti-link module. Things must be bad if we're trying to come up with an anti-link module.

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Hakuri Hanomaa
Boom Shaka-laka
#374 - 2014-12-06 20:50:59 UTC
Jita Akachi wrote:
I use OGB myself, yes it's not a great mechanic, but remove that and i close asap an costly uneed account. I'm sure majority will do, pilot with ogb don't need an new "small-ship pilot".



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Phoebe - Oh noes, the cap pilots are all leaving!

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Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#375 - 2014-12-06 21:14:00 UTC
What about giving boosting ships a timer and providing ships that have been agressed by boosted ships with a temporary bookmark with the location of said booster. This would introduce an intersting tatcical element since the "victims" of ogb could decide to warp to the booster only to find out that it's a trap. This also would make keeping the booster on grid a reasonable alternative.
Hakuri Hanomaa
Boom Shaka-laka
#376 - 2014-12-06 21:15:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakuri Hanomaa
nm
Hakuri Hanomaa
Boom Shaka-laka
#377 - 2014-12-06 21:22:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Hakuri Hanomaa
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

For some players. Why exactly do we need to balance around an isolated minority?



How do u know its an isolated minority? I already linked the quote from a Dev who said last yr that the majority of Eve players are solo players. Im not calling you out as wrong, I'm asking where/how that info comes from.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#378 - 2014-12-06 21:32:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
I'm not seeing any way to fix boosting for isolated cases in lowsec or highsec, except disallowing them there. It's a fleet mechanic, and boosts are valid for any number of ships between 2 and 250. That's one of the benefits, too. A Battlecruiser pilot can run a link for his buddies while they're doing stuff like PVE. Staying within the realm of EVE-practical, how would you surgically fix the l337 PVP edge cases? I think it's one of those simple cases of use it or don't.

6. 256 max.

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Bjarni Veigar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#379 - 2014-12-06 21:38:26 UTC
I see many people clam that boosting is actually a 2v1 fight and that bringing them on-grid will still be 2v1 and you'll still die. That's completely true but I prefer knowing that I just got killed by a dude in a boosted ship. I like knowing I died in a 2v1 or be thrilled that I just won a 1v2. I don't care if someone warps in a Logi at 70km and reps himself while he kills me. I DO care that someone is getting an "invisible" advantage that I can't know about but can only speculate on.

Destiny Corrupted wrote:
On-grid boosting makes a smaller force disproportionately weaker than a larger force, unlike if the boosts are allowed to remain off-grid.


If both fleets are receiving boost, because why shouldn't they be, aren't they in fact negating each other? So the balance is still in favor of the much larger fleet and the smaller fleet will die. If you respond with "they can win because tactics" can't they use them same tactics to threaten the on-grid booster?

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#380 - 2014-12-06 22:02:48 UTC
turn off links in a duel, I guess, but that would only apply to duels, and not [even] resulting limited engagements.

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