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What about Off Grid Boosting?

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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#341 - 2014-12-06 15:53:01 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Tear Jar wrote:
Decyphering your opponents abilities beforehand should not, but being able to figure out what they did afterwards is good.



Zappity wrote:
1. Combat links give a weapons timer.
2. Activating links increase signature for combat probes.

That would be a reasonable interim measure until they go on grid. Weapons timer would get rid of the gate huggers and station limpets. Sig increase should be lowered just a bit so you don't need a perfect scanner (with implants) to find them.

This would add a reasonable amount of risk for OGB without breaking any current game play.


A good addition to Zappity's list in response to what Tear Jar said would be:

3. Include links on kill report.

I disagree with that. It gives away way too much intelligence that's neither realistic or practical. This is a good idea for logistics, because there's visual evidence of the remote assistance. However, boosting is a more covert activity, and a lack of contact and assistance visuals means it should stay covert. However, it's within the realm of possibility that sensors can pick up some kind of interference that matches remote boosting effects. In fact, perhaps this is information that can appear after some time of targeting a ship. At the very least, it can be a visual effect, similar to hardeners, sensor boosters, etc.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#342 - 2014-12-06 15:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I disagree with that. It gives away way too much intelligence that's neither realistic or practical. This is a good idea for logistics, because there's visual evidence of the remote assistance. However, boosting is a more covert activity, and a lack of contact and assistance visuals means it should stay covert. However, it's within the realm of possibility that sensors can pick up some kind of interference that matches remote boosting effects. In fact, perhaps this is information that can appear after some time of targeting a ship. At the very least, it can be a visual effect, similar to hardeners, sensor boosters, etc.


I agree the potential for intelligence is quite big, since it would point out alts quite easily for multi-account identification purposes.

However, multiboxing combat alts are already subject to this and I'm not sure why links should be excluded from such exposure. Edit: I'm also trying to say that not including the link makes the kill report look disingenuous. It's not like the pilots on the kill were solely responsible in the case of links being present.

I'm not sure there should be a visual effect, or an RP justification that would make links evident to sensors on the defender's ship. The combat probe requirement for finding them during combat seems to me to be a good one.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#343 - 2014-12-06 16:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
They shouldn't be on loss mails because that would be the same as getting intelligence that you otherwise never would have had had you not been destroyed by someone with link assistance. That's downright magical, if you ask me. Nothing should appear on loss mails that you (and your ship's electronics) wouldn't otherwise have observed as making some kind of impact. Weapons used make sense, the amount of people shooting you makes sense, and logistics assistance positively affecting your killers makes sense, all because those are things that are observed by the losing party. A booster sitting 40 AU away isn't being observed by the losing party, and if this information somehow makes it onto the loss mail, logic dictates that this information should be available to you prior to the microsecond in which your ship ceases to exist.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Sir Constantin
#344 - 2014-12-06 16:20:17 UTC
@Aivo Dresden

250Km is too far and safe, he needs to be in a position where there is a 50% chance of dying.
You don't always know that you're fighting agains a boosted player, and when you find out it's too late.


A new player would say: "F***k this game, I wont pay for another account so I can be somewhat efficient in pvp."

Anyway, we'll see what CCP is gonna do, people with booster alts will always have something to say no matter what you throw at them.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#345 - 2014-12-06 16:22:36 UTC

The link contributed directly to the kill. They should be on the report. I'm not sure what RP reasons have anything to do with it. The losing ship observes points and webs and all sort of ECM module use that's not on the kill report either, so from that point of view the kill report is already RP-inaccurate.

In a 2v1 scenario with OGB involved, the loss report should accurately show the situation as 2v1 instead of 1v1.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2014-12-06 16:24:15 UTC
Sir Constantin wrote:
A new player would say: "F***k this game, I wont pay for another account so I can be somewhat efficient in pvp."


This is never a good reason to make a game change. If one thing doesn't drive a player like that out from EVE, something else will. Not everyone is compatible with EVE.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#347 - 2014-12-06 17:09:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Sibyyl wrote:
The link contributed directly to the kill. They should be on the report. I'm not sure what RP reasons have anything to do with it. The losing ship observes points and webs and all sort of ECM module use that's not on the kill report either, so from that point of view the kill report is already RP-inaccurate.

The offensive modules used by the enemy are observed by the losing ship, and stuff like points and webs and ECM are indeed shown on kill reports. Go check any kill board. The only caveat is that the last offensive module (if not a weapon) that gets a cycle on you before you die is recorded. So from that point of view, the kill report is very RP-accurate.

A ship is destroyed, a snapshot of the situation is taken at the last moment, and a communication is sent through gates to the proper authorities in order for various residual effects to occur, such as the payment of insurance, security rating adjustment for the attacker, etc etc. At no point does your ship magically know who was the booster that affected your enemies, and as such, that information can't get passed through.

If this feature is implemented, then it will make no sense. Now, it's fine for you to say that it's alright if a feature makes no sense as long as it balances the game in a positive manner, but it's still yet to be proven how putting boosters on kill reports is a positive change. Just because some people say that it should be, doesn't mean that it should be. Give us a reason that's not rooted in your own perception of fairness and morality for what you say next:
Sibyyl wrote:
In a 2v1 scenario with OGB involved, the loss report should accurately show the situation as 2v1 instead of 1v1.

There's a lot more stuff we're going to have to add to kill reports if we're going to follow that line of reasoning, because boosting is hardly the only thing that's not shown on them that directly influences the outcome of a fight.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#348 - 2014-12-06 17:23:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleb Heworo
Sibyyl wrote:
Sir Constantin wrote:
A new player would say: "F***k this game, I wont pay for another account so I can be somewhat efficient in pvp."


This is never a good reason to make a game change. If one thing doesn't drive a player like that out from EVE, something else will. Not everyone is compatible with EVE.


Among other things you fail to adress the argument which has been made several times in this thread that ogb is in fact NOT like any other mechanic in eve as you suggest when you claim that this hypothetic new player will simply find another reason to not play eve. Ogb is an ANOMALY in regard to the single most important meta mechanic at the very core of eve pvp: Risk vs Reward. That's why ogb "feels" like an exclusive possibility for players with a second account to bend the rules that otherwise apply for everyone. Like a game of rigged cards as I said earlier.

Another thing: Many proponenents of ogb suggested that removing ogb wouldn't change a thing since frigs "bitchslapping" eacher other, "pressing F1" (insert absurd notion of solo/small gang pvp here) would still die to a second accounts Falcon/Logi whatever. After having read this argument in all it's variation i'm fairly certain that it's rooted in that fact that these players have no idea (at all) how solo/small gang pvp for some players works. I'll give you an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCwtzJvza5U

While I myself am lightyears away from the skill shown in this video this is generally how it works. Positioning, timing, range control, situational awareness etc... I'm to a certain degree going out of the limb if i say this but if his targets in this video would have been boosted it would have been neigh impossible to pull this off. They would have been faster in slower hulls and they most likely would have had 18km webs across the board. All the skill shown in this video would have been reduced to nothing by the sheer power of a payed second account. That is dumping down Eve for you right there!

If a new player understands this he will say to himself: Even if I get that good after countless losses and month and years of Eve pvp i will get crushed eventually by a noob with a booster. How again is that not a terrible mechanic and how is it not going to drive away new players?
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#349 - 2014-12-06 17:34:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Among other things you fail to adress the argument which has been made several times in this thread that ogb is in fact NOT like any other mechanic in eve as you suggest when you claim that this hypothetic new player will simply find another reason to not play eve. Ogb is an ANOMALY in regard to the single most important meta mechanic at the very core of eve pvp: Risk vs Reward. That's why ogb "feels" like an exclusive possibility for players with a second account to bend the rules that otherwise apply for everyone. Like a game of rigged cards as I said earlier.

We're talking about a single "new player" entering an uneven fight, losing, and getting turned off of the game. Boosting isn't an anomaly in this case, because it's no different from any sort of alt usage that gives the victorious party an advantage in an uneven fight.

Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Another thing: Many proponenents of Ogb suggestetd that removing ogb wouldn't change a thing since frigs "bitchslapping" eacher other, "pressing F1" (insert absurd notion of solo/small gang pvp here) would still die to a second accounts Falcon/Logi whatever. After having read this argument in all it's variation i'm fairly certain that it's rooted in that fact that these players have no idea (at all) how solo/small gang pvp for some players works. I'll give you an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCwtzJvza5U

For some players. Why exactly do we need to balance around an isolated minority?

Shaleb Heworo wrote:
While I myself am lightyears away from the skill shown in this video this is generally how it works. Positioning, timing, range control, situational awareness etc... I'm to a certain degree going out of the limb if i say this but if his targets in this video would have been boosted it would have been neigh impossible to pull this off. They would have been faster in slower hulls and they most likely would have had 18km webs across the board. All the skill shown in this video would have been reduced to nothing by the sheer power of a payed second account. That is dumping down Eve right there!

And how does boosting differ from any other form of advantage provided by an alt? Are you saying that it would have been more fair with a Falcon alt as opposed to a booster alt, even if the Slicer pilot was jammed 100% of the time?

Shaleb Heworo wrote:
If a new player udnertands this he will say to himelf: Even if i get that good after countless losses and month and years of eve pvp i will get crushed eventually by a noob with a booster. How again is that not a terrible mechanic and how is it not going to drive away new players?

A player who is lamenting that fighting multiple enemies should be as fair as fighting a single one is a pretty ignorant player.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2014-12-06 17:34:40 UTC
If we're going to use 'makes sense' to justify the argument, it 'makes sense' that ships should be able to recognize that a command ship somewhere in system is blasting out radio waves all over the system. Radio lasers reaching several AU to hit their intended fleet member, is not realistic, and if you think it is, the Amarr would like you to represent them the next time CCP makes a buffing pass on lasers.

We're left with "everyone knows a booster is here" though perhaps without knowing who they are boosting. I would propose that ships with active command links in a fleet of more than 1 person be visible on the overview, but not warpable. I would also propose that active command ships, by the above definition, be scannable by any single pass of 3 or more combat probes. The command ship pilot can still easily detect that he is being scanned in time to escape, but only if he's actually paying attention.
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#351 - 2014-12-06 17:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleb Heworo
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Sir Constantin wrote:
A new player would say: "F***k this game, I wont pay for another account so I can be somewhat efficient in pvp."


This is never a good reason to make a game change. If one thing doesn't drive a player like that out from EVE, something else will. Not everyone is compatible with EVE.


Among other things you fail to adress the argument which has been made several times in this thread that ogb is in fact NOT like any other mechanic in eve as you suggest when you claim that this hypothetic new player will simply find another reason to not play eve. Ogb is an ANOMALY in regard to the single most important meta mechanic at the very core of eve pvp: Risk vs Reward. That's why ogb "feels" like an exclusive possibility for players with a second account to bend the rules that otherwise apply for everyone. Like a game of rigged cards as I said earlier.

Another thing: Many proponenents of ogb suggested that removing ogb wouldn't change a thing since frigs "bitchslapping" eacher other, "pressing F1" (insert absurd notion of solo/small gang pvp here) would still die to a second accounts Falcon/Logi whatever. After having read this argument in all it's variations i'm fairly certain that it's rooted in that fact that these players have no idea (at all) how solo/small gang pvp for some players works. I'll give you an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCwtzJvza5U

While I myself am lightyears away from the skill shown in this video this is generally how it works. Positioning, timing, range control, situational awareness etc... I'm to a certain degree going out of the limb if i say this but if his targets in this video would have been boosted it would have been neigh impossible to pull this off. They would have been faster in slower hulls and they most likely would have had 18km webs across the board. All the skill shown in this video would have been reduced to nothing by the sheer power of a payed second account. That is dumping down Eve for you right there!

If a new player understands this he will say to himself: Even if I get that good after countless losses and month and years of Eve pvp i will get crushed eventually by a noob with a booster. How again is that not a terrible mechanic and how is it not going to drive away new players?


Double post while trying to edit for typos. Ignore that.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#352 - 2014-12-06 17:38:17 UTC
Foxicity wrote:
If we're going to use 'makes sense' to justify the argument, it 'makes sense' that ships should be able to recognize that a command ship somewhere in system is blasting out radio waves all over the system. Radio lasers reaching several AU to hit their intended fleet member, is not realistic, and if you think it is, the Amarr would like you to represent them the next time CCP makes a buffing pass on lasers.

We're left with "everyone knows a booster is here" though perhaps without knowing who they are boosting. I would propose that ships with active command links in a fleet of more than 1 person be visible on the overview, but not warpable. I would also propose that active command ships, by the above definition, be scannable by any single pass of 3 or more combat probes. The command ship pilot can still easily detect that he is being scanned in time to escape, but only if he's actually paying attention.

I absolutely agree, and I've proposed similar mechanics earlier in the thread. There's nothing with treating boosters as a detectable space signal, or having a visual effect on receiving parties.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#353 - 2014-12-06 17:45:59 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Among other things you fail to adress the argument which has been made several times in this thread that ogb is in fact NOT like any other mechanic in eve as you suggest when you claim that this hypothetic new player will simply find another reason to not play eve. Ogb is an ANOMALY in regard to the single most important meta mechanic at the very core of eve pvp: Risk vs Reward. That's why ogb "feels" like an exclusive possibility for players with a second account to bend the rules that otherwise apply for everyone. Like a game of rigged cards as I said earlier.

We're talking about a single "new player" entering an uneven fight, losing, and getting turned off of the game. Boosting isn't an anomaly in this case, because it's no different from any sort of alt usage that gives the victorious party an advantage in an uneven fight.

Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Another thing: Many proponenents of Ogb suggestetd that removing ogb wouldn't change a thing since frigs "bitchslapping" eacher other, "pressing F1" (insert absurd notion of solo/small gang pvp here) would still die to a second accounts Falcon/Logi whatever. After having read this argument in all it's variation i'm fairly certain that it's rooted in that fact that these players have no idea (at all) how solo/small gang pvp for some players works. I'll give you an example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCwtzJvza5U

For some players. Why exactly do we need to balance around an isolated minority?

Shaleb Heworo wrote:
While I myself am lightyears away from the skill shown in this video this is generally how it works. Positioning, timing, range control, situational awareness etc... I'm to a certain degree going out of the limb if i say this but if his targets in this video would have been boosted it would have been neigh impossible to pull this off. They would have been faster in slower hulls and they most likely would have had 18km webs across the board. All the skill shown in this video would have been reduced to nothing by the sheer power of a payed second account. That is dumping down Eve right there!

And how does boosting differ from any other form of advantage provided by an alt? Are you saying that it would have been more fair with a Falcon alt as opposed to a booster alt, even if the Slicer pilot was jammed 100% of the time?

Shaleb Heworo wrote:
If a new player udnertands this he will say to himelf: Even if i get that good after countless losses and month and years of eve pvp i will get crushed eventually by a noob with a booster. How again is that not a terrible mechanic and how is it not going to drive away new players?

A player who is lamenting that fighting multiple enemies should be as fair as fighting a single one is a pretty ignorant player.



It is not about "fair". Not in the slightest. It's about "consistant with eve mechanics which makes the game awesome otherwise"! What makes ogb different from other mechanics has been discussed to no end: The new player would learn to use d-scan and avoid fights against logis OR pull his targets out of logi range OR cycle around the field to kill that logi etc. He can't do that with ogb since it's OFF GRID and therefore to a high degree out of risk of getting popped! That is what makes ogb an anomaly! It is really easy to comprehend unless you don't want to comprehend it. I mean C'mon...
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2014-12-06 17:51:07 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

I absolutely agree, and I've proposed similar mechanics earlier in the thread. There's nothing with treating boosters as a detectable space signal, or having a visual effect on receiving parties.


We agree? Oh... uh... good then.

I'm torn about making received boosts visible on fleet members, but I definitely think a command ship pilot should be easier to find or neutralize. A slight change to my 3 probes rule, I think the command ship should be much! more easily scannable but in such a way that probes still have to be within d-scan range of their target (so the command ship can detect that he is being scanned). So for example CCP runs the numbers, and makes Links increase sig radius by just such an amount that a perfect scan char has to come down to an 8AU scan to scan down the command ship.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#355 - 2014-12-06 17:54:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
It is not about "fair". Not in the slightest. It's about "consistant with eve mechanics which makes the game awesome otherwise"! What makes ogb different from other mechanics has been discussed to no end: The new player would learn to use d-scan and avoid fights against logis OR pull his targets out of logi range OR cycle around the field to kill that logi etc. He can't do that with ogb since it's OFF GRID and therefore to a high degree out of risk of getting popped! That is what makes ogb an anomaly! It is really easy to comprehend unless you don't want to comprehend it. I mean C'mon...

You know what else has been discussed to no end? The fact that you can probe boosters out.

But that aside, you've named a lot of ways that someone can deal with a logistics alt (that for some reason is not rocking a cloak, making it impossible to know it's coming until it's too late), but you've failed to address the possibility that performing those actions can be more difficult than probing out a booster and killing it. Pulling targets out of range, or getting in range to attack yourself, are both possible if you're conveniently not being tackled. And logistics is just one example. You haven't addressed any others, such as ECM that keeps you permanently jammed, another combat ship assisting your target, or fighters suddenly appearing and assisting the enemy. But please, go ahead and keep talking about how boosting is the one "anomaly" in the game that makes new players lose fights they wouldn't have won anyway. I'm sure we can all suspend our disbelief long enough to hear you out, while pretending that using just one ship against multiple others is still a "1v1" as long as they're all controlled by a single human.

Foxicity wrote:
We agree? Oh... uh... good then.

I'm torn about making received boosts visible on fleet members, but I definitely think a command ship pilot should be easier to find or neutralize. A slight change to my 3 probes rule, I think the command ship should be much! more easily scannable but in such a way that probes still have to be within d-scan range of their target (so the command ship can detect that he is being scanned). So for example CCP runs the numbers, and makes Links increase sig radius by just such an amount that a perfect scan char has to come down to an 8AU scan to scan down the command ship.

Yes, we do. My proposed changes come in a package of timer inheritance, signature radius/sensor strength adjustment, and some kind of global indicator that boosting is taking place (I would prefer a visual effect on boost recipients). For reasons I've outlined in this thread, I feel that this is a better solution than dumping boosters on grid.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#356 - 2014-12-06 18:12:22 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
It is not about "fair". Not in the slightest. It's about "consistant with eve mechanics which makes the game awesome otherwise"! What makes ogb different from other mechanics has been discussed to no end: The new player would learn to use d-scan and avoid fights against logis OR pull his targets out of logi range OR cycle around the field to kill that logi etc. He can't do that with ogb since it's OFF GRID and therefore to a high degree out of risk of getting popped! That is what makes ogb an anomaly! It is really easy to comprehend unless you don't want to comprehend it. I mean C'mon...

You know what else has been discussed to no end? The fact that you can probe boosters out.

But that aside, you've named a lot of ways that someone can deal with a logistics alt (that for some reason is not rocking a cloak, making it impossible to know it's coming until it's too late), but you've failed to address the possibility that performing those actions can be more difficult than probing out a booster and killing it. Pulling targets out of range, or getting in range to attack yourself, are both possible if you're conveniently not being tackled. And logistics is just one example. You haven't addressed any others, such as ECM that keeps you permanently jammed, another combat ship assisting your target, or fighters suddenly appearing and assisting the enemy. But please, go ahead and keep talking about how boosting is the one "anomaly" in the game that makes new players lose fights they wouldn't have won anyway. I'm sure we can all suspend our disbelief long enough to hear you out, while pretending that using just one ship against multiple others is still a "1v1" as long as they're all controlled by a single human.


Man. Do you really simply misundertand everything which has been writen here so far? The boosters sit on stations or gates under the protection of gate guns and in the rare case of a t3 boosting from a safespot you can NOT probe it out in an unbonused hull!

Apart from this It's NOT about enabling that newbie to win fights 2vs1 and it's not about "fair". it's about consistency with eve mechanics and it is about the same meta rules appllying for everyone! If you put that logi on the field you risk it and even I have killed targets against ecm using gangs by moving in quickly when you get a lock cycle or pulling targets out of ecm range. Furtermore you can SEE ecm and logison d-scan since they have to be on grid and decide not to fight or to try and get an isolation. Even when logis/fecm are cloaked there is a locking delay wich gives you time to pull range or maybe even kill your target. Why do you think ccp impemented locking delays? Do you understand now?
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2014-12-06 18:20:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Foxicity
Shaleb Heworo wrote:

Man. Do you really simply misundertand everything which has been writen here so far? The boosters sit on stations or gates under the protection of gate guns and in the rare case of a t3 boosting from a safespot you can NOT probe it out in an unbonused hull!

Apart from this It's NOT about enabling that newbie to win fights 2vs1 and it's not about "fair". it's about consistency with eve mechanics and it is about the same meta rules appllying for everyone! If you put that logi on the field you risk it and even I have killed targets against ecm using gangs by moving in quickly when you get a lock cycle or pulling targets out of ecm range. Furtermore you can SEE ecm and logison d-scan since they have to be on grid and decide not to fight or to try and get an isolation. Even when logis/fecm are cloaked there is a locking delay wich gives you time to pull range or maybe even kill your target. Why do you think ccp impemented locking delays? Do you understand now?


Destiny supports making command ships visible on the overview, making them more probe-able, and giving them weapons timers. This would keep them from being 1) immune due to stations and gates, and 2) make them easy to see and find. I feel this adds an acceptable level of risk to the command ship profession and makes it difficult to afk-alt the role. Is there anything else you'd like to bring up?
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#358 - 2014-12-06 18:33:28 UTC
Foxicity wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:

Man. Do you really simply misundertand everything which has been writen here so far? The boosters sit on stations or gates under the protection of gate guns and in the rare case of a t3 boosting from a safespot you can NOT probe it out in an unbonused hull!

Apart from this It's NOT about enabling that newbie to win fights 2vs1 and it's not about "fair". it's about consistency with eve mechanics and it is about the same meta rules appllying for everyone! If you put that logi on the field you risk it and even I have killed targets against ecm using gangs by moving in quickly when you get a lock cycle or pulling targets out of ecm range. Furtermore you can SEE ecm and logison d-scan since they have to be on grid and decide not to fight or to try and get an isolation. Even when logis/fecm are cloaked there is a locking delay wich gives you time to pull range or maybe even kill your target. Why do you think ccp impemented locking delays? Do you understand now?


Destiny supports making command ships visible on the overview, making them more probe-able, and giving them weapons timers. This would keep them from being 1) immune due to stations and gates, and 2) make them easy to see and find. I feel this adds an acceptable level of risk to the command ship profession and makes it difficult to afk-alt the role. Is there anything else you'd like to bring up?


There seemed to be several misundertandings of what the problem with ogb is which irritated me since these problems have been adressed in detail several times in this thread and yet these misunderstandings and false compairisons turn up again and again in the discussion. If my post had a harsh tone i aplogize. In th end these misundertandings root in a good thing which is the variety of completely different playstyles supported by eve
Foxicity
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2014-12-06 19:00:28 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:


There seemed to be several misundertandings of what the problem with ogb is which irritated me since these problems have been adressed in detail several times in this thread and yet these misunderstandings and false compairisons turn up again and again in the discussion. If my post had a harsh tone i aplogize. In th end these misundertandings root in a good thing which is the variety of completely different playstyles supported by eve


We all seem to agree that off-grid boosters, as they exist right now, are too risk-free for the benefits they provide. There is debate over whether a booster should have to be on-grid to provide boosts, but there seems to be a majority consensus that they should receive weapons timers while providing Links, and if they remain in the off-grid role, they should be more vulnerable to probing and attacks. Destiny and I think this can be achieved by making them visible on the overview, much like a cyno, but not warpable so you still have to probe them. However, they should also be easier to probe such that a perfect scan alt is not required to probe them own and the time required to scan them is not unreasonably high.

Let's discuss on-grid boosting as an alternate idea. Obviously an on-grid booster would be a high-value target to the opposing fleet, much like hictors and logi are now. If we force boosters to be on-grid without changing anything else about them, would they still be usable? I think so, to a degree. They would certainly in most cases need logi and high resists to be viable. Thoughts?
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#360 - 2014-12-06 19:37:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Daemun Khanid
Just an idea, I'm sure someone can find issues with it, but how about an anti-link module?
Something with it's own expensive skill book with a percentage of link effectiveness reduction based on skill level with 100% at lvl 5.
Make the module a T2 module with very high cost say 300+mil ish, so you don't have super cheap frig's capable of neutralizing a very expensive link ship.
Make the module similar to covert ops cloaks, in that they can only be fitted to covert ops, black ops, recon and interdictors (maybe interdictors will be useful for something in low/high sec)
Make the module so that it only works when on grid with the link ship and make it so that just like links, it doesn't result in suspect flagging or kill mail reports. Make it capable of functioning while cloaked but only with a covert ops cloak.
This would give pilots in lowsec/fw zones a way of neutralizing links without having to resort to excessive long range force (bs's) just to shut down links for a solo frig. An alert pilot will notice his stat's drop when links are jammed and can have their link ship move to a safe location which forces at least some sort of tactical effort on the part of the link pilot. For lowsec/fw combat this also means a better chance of forcing link ships out from under gate guns and making them vulnerable to be scanned down and attacked.
Some people will still just say "why not just bring your own links" but then you just have 2 link ships sitting around with no effort and effecting the outcome of fights. This would at least inject an additional level of strategy to the link game.

Daemun of Khanid