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What about Off Grid Boosting?

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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2014-12-05 15:50:20 UTC
Sabarian Thraxx wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Like it's going to matter when you're doing your FW 1v1 and suddenly a Damnation drops out of warp 5km away from you. Or if a recon decloaks next to you or whatever the alt flies.

The only thing it would make a difference for, in FW, is the fact you can't warp them in the smaller complexes. On gates, stations, ... it wouldn't make the slightest difference, stop deceiving yourself.

As for gangs, for God's sake, take your own booster with you. You have this awesome game feature that makes your entire gang 20-30% better, like why would you not use it? Is that stubbornness, or do you just like putting yourself in disadvantaged situations?

Sabarian Thraxx wrote:
Im wondering how you're supposed to know when the OGB is in warp?edit:typo

He's moving on Dscan? Unless you always keep it at max range 360 degrees, then yea, I see your problem. You can set ranges, directions, ... It's not that hard to see when stuff is moving.


Remiel says you cant Dscan while fighting. Says it puts you at a disadvantage and thats why an OGB alt is not OP. Just a couple posts up.




I was talking about if you're multiboxing a frigate in combat at the same time, dividing your attention between two things, one of them being actual PVP. Your intentional ignorance for the sake of winning an argument is both childish and pathetic. Lrn2read.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#302 - 2014-12-05 15:50:40 UTC
Sabarian Thraxx wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Sabarian Thraxx wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Sabarian Thraxx wrote:
edit: forget it



Did you finally realize that you're over-reaching pretty badly with your exceptionally loose interpretations of my statements?

I was going to say "it's plainly obvious to everyone that you haven't been reading ANYONE'S counterpoints, not just mine", and a few other things, but you don't even have the conviction to let your statements stand.


Actually the "argument" was settled by CCP before the thread even started, so I consider it a moot point. I stopped reading your post near the beginning when you suggested the FW crowd fly covert ops ships Roll

I had posted the actual definition of neckbeard, as I saw you give your definition towards the bottom of your post. Then I thought, "why bother?" I figure name-calling trolls prefer somethingawful and urbandictionary.com to a real dictionary anyway.

You got class, bro. No, really, I mean it.


The argument was settled by CCP before the thread even started?

You mean when a CSM member posted on page 2 and essentially said "OGB isn't going anywhere" because it's too much of a hassle to re-work it?

Yet, somehow, you're still convinced that a 3-year-old comment by CCP Fozzie means that any day now, the banhammer will drop on OGB, and you will all be vindicated?
I don't know if you've ever read the definition of "delusional".... but, damn.


Well what can I say, I havent shaved in a couple of days, so I guess you're right on, bro. Neck stubble and all, u know Blink



Your honor, the defense has officially broken the prosecution's brain, and thus, rests.

Garamonde, out.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Sabarian Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#303 - 2014-12-05 16:34:30 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Sabarian Thraxx wrote:
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Like it's going to matter when you're doing your FW 1v1 and suddenly a Damnation drops out of warp 5km away from you. Or if a recon decloaks next to you or whatever the alt flies.

The only thing it would make a difference for, in FW, is the fact you can't warp them in the smaller complexes. On gates, stations, ... it wouldn't make the slightest difference, stop deceiving yourself.

As for gangs, for God's sake, take your own booster with you. You have this awesome game feature that makes your entire gang 20-30% better, like why would you not use it? Is that stubbornness, or do you just like putting yourself in disadvantaged situations?

Sabarian Thraxx wrote:
Im wondering how you're supposed to know when the OGB is in warp?edit:typo

He's moving on Dscan? Unless you always keep it at max range 360 degrees, then yea, I see your problem. You can set ranges, directions, ... It's not that hard to see when stuff is moving.


Remiel says you cant Dscan while fighting. Says it puts you at a disadvantage and thats why an OGB alt is not OP. Just a couple posts up.




I was talking about if you're multiboxing a frigate in combat at the same time, dividing your attention between two things, one of them being actual PVP. Your intentional ignorance for the sake of winning an argument is both childish and pathetic. Lrn2read.


Ive already said I multibox my main and my booster and have no trouble at all, pretty sure you read and even replied ot that post, so yeah, I think the notion is being over-dramatized, it's NOT hard to have a booster on another screen with dscan up and click your second mouse every couple of minutes even while you're fighting.

So yeah, I was being sarcastic about what you said because I think its phallacious.

Is sarcasm childish? Maybe so, but if so I'm in pretty good company here on the forums.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#304 - 2014-12-05 17:19:27 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
They just want arenas. This new gaming generation wants "honorable" duels, and lots of grindy pve content. There's been a fundamental paradigm shift in gamer mentality after the XBox rolled around. But I digress, as this is getting a bit off-topic.

How are arenas the same as making the game more about actual skill? because that's what capsuleers who are against ogb essentially want: They want the game to be more about how you pilot your spaceship and less about invisible second account super powers.

Think about what that desire entails at its very core: to circumvent EVE's open-ended nature, with all of the strategy, planning, and thinking associated with any action, and instead to force players into as homogenized, normalized of an environment as possible.

As I said before, this isn't a request to remove an undesired gameplay mechanic as much as it is a request to force players into fair fights, which can never happen without turning EVE into a wholly different game. Read my post on the last page for my description of what people complained about before boosting became a "thing." They're not complaining about boosting, but about 1vs2. It's as simple as that.


I think you really misunderstand the oponents of ogb. As far as i know many of them fight gangs/superior hulls all the time. In fact it's these "unfair" fights which are the most fun for many pilots because it's gratifying to beat the odds by tactical means. That's one core motivation not only in Eve but in any any tactical game. The problem with ogb is that there is no tactical counter because the booster is... well off grid. Often you will notice the booster when your kiting ship gets webbed at 18km by an 7m isk incursus. You write about homogenization but removing ogb would in fact put more emphasis on tactical piloting skills and fitting strategy. Capsuleers will actually be forced to think harder and fly better to catch that kiter instead of relying on their second account which boosts every hull from rookie ship to t3 with the same abilities. Therefore your whole argument about normalization and homogenization is imo really misleading.


I call bs. Eve is rock paper scissor. A fight is won usually before it occurs. The skill in eve is not at the tactical level of "I can press f1 better then you," but rather in preparing my ship and picking my fights. OGB is a randomizing factor that makes fights more interesting and unpredictable.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#305 - 2014-12-05 17:29:26 UTC
Why would you scan them down.

They are sitting on the gate or station giving the boosts with no risk.


Eve has so many risk averse pvp'rs.
BadAssMcKill
Aliastra
#306 - 2014-12-05 17:35:59 UTC
Taking boosts on grid in their current state basically means no boosts for a roaming nano gang that's smaller than a BC because they're horrendously slow

If you wanna take them on grid that's fine but there needs to be a cruiser sized option that can actually tank and have decent mobility and a destroyer/frigate sized booster
Dork Action
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#307 - 2014-12-05 17:39:14 UTC
Charlie Firpol wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Daemun Khanid wrote:
...just annoying when you have to deal with uber solo frigs with loki links...


Get your own links and not be solo? Wow, that was hard. This game sucks, let's all go play Elite instead.

What kind of arguement is that? Get the same as your enemy, but more? Damn, you´re good at game balancing and tactics.


The irony of your post and your alliance is p funny
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#308 - 2014-12-05 18:08:43 UTC
Alright guys question.

Just how much of a difference those this boosting make anyway?


I can be in command ships in roughly 2 weeks if I wanted (three races) .

But what's the point? What I'm wondering is, is this boosting thing some matter of "that .10 stat" that makes all the difference in the world for all those calculator warriors and bean counters or are we talking about fleet boosters turning otherwise mediocre ships into PWNmobiles?


For the former case I don't see the point in some tiny little stat that serves more to boost confidence than anything else.

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Syn Shi
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#309 - 2014-12-05 18:18:44 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Alright guys question.

Just how much of a difference those this boosting make anyway?


I can be in command ships in roughly 2 weeks if I wanted (three races) .

But what's the point? What I'm wondering is, is this boosting thing some matter of "that .10 stat" that makes all the difference in the world for all those calculator warriors and bean counters or are we talking about fleet boosters turning otherwise mediocre ships into PWNmobiles?


For the former case I don't see the point in some tiny little stat that serves more to boost confidence than anything else.



Its the fact that the ship sits there on a gate/pos/station giving its bonus with no risk what so ever.

The bonus is irrelevant.

May as well make it so as long as you have a ship it sits in the station and you get the bonuses no matter where you are in Eve. It would amount to the same thing.
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2014-12-05 18:56:27 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

The little guy is hardly out there engaging in solo pvp in low-sec. No, don't talk to me about yourself, or some "guy you know" who's a total outlier. The majority of the little guys are mining Veld and running level threes, and complaining about wars and ganking on the forums because their CEOs taught them to be afraid of the game.


Can confirm sucks for the little guy. 11 month old toon 1st account here, I have been solo roaming in frigates-cruisers in lowsec for most of that time. I don't claim to be good but most of my losses are the result of me flying around for two hours looking for a winnable fight, getting bored, and engaging the next thing I see thats in the same ship class. Which 90% of the time is snaked and boosted to hell and gone or blob bait. Now with snakes at least santo's about to introduce some risk and blobs can be avoided with some scouting but if there are multiple neutrals in system I can only guess that one or more is a booster based on their corp history and age. Its gotten to the point where I simply won't fight with npc corp neutrals in system or a strategic cruiser on grid. Some would say solo roaming has become a waste of time in lowsec if youre unboosted because anything larger than a destroyer gets blobbed and most of the people that actually solo in frigs drag a booster around with them because it's a risk free win button if you are in a kitey ship or a 17k web incursus (which i have encountered.)
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2014-12-05 18:57:58 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

The little guy is hardly out there engaging in solo pvp in low-sec. No, don't talk to me about yourself, or some "guy you know" who's a total outlier. The majority of the little guys are mining Veld and running level threes, and complaining about wars and ganking on the forums because their CEOs taught them to be afraid of the game.


Can confirm sucks for the little guy. 11 month old toon 1st account here, I have been solo roaming in frigates-cruisers in lowsec for most of that time. I don't claim to be good but most of my losses are the result of me flying around for two hours looking for a winnable fight, getting bored, and engaging the next thing I see thats in the same ship class. Which 90% of the time is snaked and boosted to hell and gone or blob bait. Now with snakes at least santo's about to introduce some risk and blobs can be avoided with some scouting but if there are multiple neutrals in system I can only guess that one or more is a booster based on their corp history and age. Its gotten to the point where I simply won't fight with npc corp neutrals in system or a strategic cruiser on grid. Some would say solo roaming has become a waste of time in lowsec if youre unboosted because anything larger than a destroyer gets blobbed and most of the people that actually solo in frigs drag a booster around with them because it's a risk free win button if you are in a kitey ship or a 17k web incursus (which i have encountered.)


So what you're saying is I should go run level 3s or mine veldspar. Or whore on blob mails.
Scipio Artelius
Weaponised Vegemite
Flying Dangerous
#312 - 2014-12-05 19:22:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Arla Sarain wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Arla Sarain wrote:
Whoever thinks you can "shut down OGB by probing" and then kill the assailant whilst the OGB is warping probably hasn't undocked in a long while. I'd like to see evidence in terms of TTK that you can kill the actual enemy whilst his OGB is in warp. Assuming the actual enemy doesn't warp himself and simply won't engage until his links are active.

Anyone who thinks a booster can boost while warping probably hasn't undocked in a while either, in which case the time in station might be better spent reading up on the mechanics than ship spinning.

Not the point.

Kill the enemy whilst the OGB is in warp - your advice, with the consideration that no links are active when in warp.

Warping doesn't take that long. Unless you warp 100AU. Takes longer to kill someone. Scaring off OGB with probes is hence a moot point. You won't kill the enemy before links are active again, and the enemy will likely not engage without links.

Unless you expect all the players without link alts to live in 100AU wide systems...

What?

No, not my advice at all. I think 'kill the enemy while the booster is in warp' is totally impractical.

My advice, in priority order, would be:

1. Get links yourself
2. Bring ewar - links don't do anything for an opponent that can't lock you, track you, shoot you
3. Bring logistics to increase your own survivability
4. Bring more DPS
5. All of the above

Of course, that advice works for fleets and not solo pvpers.

If solo, accept that any time there are 2 or more other characters in system, at least one of them is a booster.

Don't whinge to CCP about the game mechanics when you've made choices to limit what mechanics in the game you want to utilise. There are a lot of other things that can be done to ensure you have the best possible chance of winning the fight and they are things you should be doing anyway if your aim is to win.
Korwin Abre-Kai
lichfield exploration and salvage
#313 - 2014-12-05 19:23:18 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Off grid boosting, unfortunately, will be around for a while to come. It needs the dogma rewrite/Brain in a Box to be complete, before CCP can seriously think about redoing it. Ranged effects which are constant, would cause TQ to have a bit of a nervous breakdown.

(things like warp interdiction bubbles are 'easy' as they're not constant effects. Just 'is there something interdicting me in range,
when I try to warp')



the quote in question is 3 years old from ONE dev out of several about a extremely narrow aspect of command link use. to those of you quoting it has it occurred to any of you that changes to scanning mechanics have rendered this moot?

this quote is from the dev post on burner missions : Burner Missions pit you against a single enemy NPC. This NPC is an extremely powerful frigate with stats based on those of a player flying a pirate frigate with officer/deadspace gear, pirate implants, and command links. All of these NPCs use warp disruption, and most of them use scramblers that turn off microwarpdrives the same way player scramblers do

you will notice that "command links" are part of the mission mechanic and no command ship will be "on grid" not only that but to have any hope of killing the burner you will need command links of your own with the gate preventing the boosting ship from getting "on grid" . granted this is PVE not PVP but it seems to me that CCP would not have wasted the programing time on this new content if they intended to remove off grid boosting any time soon if at all.


also as an orca driver I have to say that adding flags and timers for boosting would be a very bad idea it would destroy open mining fleets the second it went live CODE would simply infiltrate fleets and open up a duel with their mains and flag the orca as most orcas now run tanking boosts along with the mining links.( MTUs having replaced the need to fit a tractor). people need to remember PVP is NOT the only use for links and any changes will have a global effect.
A Necessary End
Honey Badger Squad
#314 - 2014-12-05 21:52:22 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Links are horrendously broken and need A Necessary End


As a link alt I agree fully.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#315 - 2014-12-06 02:59:59 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
So what you're saying is I should go run level 3s or mine veldspar. Or ***** on blob mails.

What I'm saying is that you're a very insignificant minority in the grand scheme of things, because there are very few players who fit your description. Balancing a combat feature around this minority would do more harm than good.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Hakuri Hanomaa
Boom Shaka-laka
#316 - 2014-12-06 05:05:03 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
So what you're saying is I should go run level 3s or mine veldspar. Or ***** on blob mails.

What I'm saying is that you're a very insignificant minority in the grand scheme of things, because there are very few players who fit your description. Balancing a combat feature around this minority would do more harm than good.


According to a CCP dev in Jan 2013 solo players are the majority.

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/195650-1/page/1


Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#317 - 2014-12-06 05:31:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Hakuri Hanomaa wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
So what you're saying is I should go run level 3s or mine veldspar. Or ***** on blob mails.

What I'm saying is that you're a very insignificant minority in the grand scheme of things, because there are very few players who fit your description. Balancing a combat feature around this minority would do more harm than good.


According to a CCP dev in Jan 2013 solo players are the majority.

http://www.eve-search.com/thread/195650-1/page/1

Okay. Are solo pvpers also the majority of all pvpers?

Now, keep in mind that I don't think balancing by numbers is necessarily a good idea. If that's how things got done, then stuff like ganking, wars, and scamming would all go out the window to satisfy the desire of a clear majority. However, in this case, the balancing affects one section of EVE players who are very similar, and the balancing would also not negatively affect the entire game as a whole. So in this particular case, it's probably a better idea to go by the majority in order to preserve the power balance in uneven, non 1vs1 fights. Most pvp is done at the group level, and putting boosts on-grid would negatively impact that for reasons I've previously outlined in this thread.

Remember, even if booster fittings get buffed, there's an upper limit on EHP, but there's no upper limit on DPS because of the N+1 strategy. That's why on-grid boosts would disproportionately benefit larger groups of players. it's better to get rid of them entirely, than to put them on-grid.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Aivo Dresden
State War Academy
Caldari State
#318 - 2014-12-06 07:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Alright guys question. Just how much of a difference those this boosting make anyway?

I'll give you an example for armor boosts. You get 100% from having Armored Warfare Specialist V, and 50% from having Link Specialist V. With Command Ship V, you have another 15% to the gang modules effectiveness. The base value for example "Armored Warfare link - Damage Control II" is 6% more armor resistances. After the math is done, you're looking at roughly 18% more armor resistance for the boosted pilot.

The skirmish modules give 7/8% to scram range, signature, prop mod boost. So you're looking at a roughly 20-25% boost in those areas.

You can say that on average, whatever is being boosted, gets a 20% increase. Most command ships will run 6-7 modules. Popular combinations are skirmish and shield or skirmish and armor.

A boosted pilot will have +-20% more/better:
Skirmish:
- AB/MWD boost
- Point range
- Sig raduis
Armor/Shield
- Resistance
- Cap use for armor/shield repair mods (both local and remote)
- Repair module (local and remote) cycle time

Hope that explains it a bit.

Although this is of course kind of trivial if you keep in mind that it's effectively 2 accounts. If you'd bring in a 2nd ship on grid, you'd just have double the DPS to dump on your opponent, so in perspective, it's not all that what people make it out to be. Average Joe will still get popped by the better pilot, regardless of Average Joe getting boosts or not. If that would have been a Falcon alt, Average Joe wouldn't even have been able to lock up the other guy in the first place. If it's a Pilgrim, he wouldn't have been able to keep his mods turned on, etc etc.

Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Text.

While I see your point, it would be pretty brutal to remove boosts entirely. A lot of people spend a year (!!!) training this. You can't just remove 15m SP and call it a day. I wouldn't be opposed to getting all those SP reimbursed, but it's definitely not my first choice solution. 15m SP buys you A LOT of skills. All those booster alts could almost instantly be turned in to carrier / whatever FoTM alts overnight. :P

Making them work for OnGB only would be a decent option, I personally don't mind either way. I noticed this is mostly really an issue for FW, where people tend to always fight in the same 3-5 systems. From my experience, most roaming gangs either don't use boosts, or just take them with them on grid. I'm sure someone will start listing exceptions and situations now that display the contrary though so whatever. I'm speaking from personal experience. :P
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#319 - 2014-12-06 07:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sibyyl
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Although this is of course kind of trivial if you keep in mind that it's effectively 2 accounts. If you'd bring in a 2nd ship on grid, you'd just have double the DPS to dump on your opponent, so in perspective, it's not all that what people make it out to be. Average Joe will still get popped by the better pilot, regardless of Average Joe getting boosts or not. If that would have been a Falcon alt, Average Joe wouldn't even have been able to lock up the other guy in the first place. If it's a Pilgrim, he wouldn't have been able to keep his mods turned on, etc etc.


This is an interesting perspective, and it causes me to question my viewpoint (in addition to the point Des made about small gang PVP).

I recognized your name as soon as I saw your post. I spent a week researching skills in EVE before making a trial account, and your eveboard was the first thing I looked at to understand what a PVP pilot might have (at the time I didn't know that EVE was anything other than PVP). Those skills were pretty much the first things I ever put into an EVEMon plan to give myself an idea what a plan would even look like.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Beledia Ilphukiir
Proffessional Experts Group
#320 - 2014-12-06 08:03:51 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
Although this is of course kind of trivial if you keep in mind that it's effectively 2 accounts. If you'd bring in a 2nd ship on grid, you'd just have double the DPS to dump on your opponent, so in perspective, it's not all that what people make it out to be. Average Joe will still get popped by the better pilot, regardless of Average Joe getting boosts or not. If that would have been a Falcon alt, Average Joe wouldn't even have been able to lock up the other guy in the first place. If it's a Pilgrim, he wouldn't have been able to keep his mods turned on, etc etc.


I don't think people have so much problem with that. It's a clear 2 vs 1 situation then, which takes some of the sting out of losing and most the glory out of winning. It also means there are no hidden factors influencing the fight which is a big positive on its own, affecting factors are recorded in the killmail and all involved risked their ships on the field. It's by miles a better situation than having to guess what actually affected the fight and the multi account user being able to hide that affect.