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What about Off Grid Boosting?

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Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#201 - 2014-12-05 04:55:32 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
They just want arenas. This new gaming generation wants "honorable" duels, and lots of grindy pve content. There's been a fundamental paradigm shift in gamer mentality after the XBox rolled around. But I digress, as this is getting a bit off-topic.




How are arenas the same as making the game more about actual skill? because that's what capsuleers who are against ogb essentially want: They want the game to be more about how you pilot your spaceship and less about invisible second account super powers.

Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#202 - 2014-12-05 05:03:43 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
They just want arenas. This new gaming generation wants "honorable" duels, and lots of grindy pve content. There's been a fundamental paradigm shift in gamer mentality after the XBox rolled around. But I digress, as this is getting a bit off-topic.

How are arenas the same as making the game more about actual skill? because that's what capsuleers who are against ogb essentially want: They want the game to be more about how you pilot your spaceship and less about invisible second account super powers.

Think about what that desire entails at its very core: to circumvent EVE's open-ended nature, with all of the strategy, planning, and thinking associated with any action, and instead to force players into as homogenized, normalized of an environment as possible.

As I said before, this isn't a request to remove an undesired gameplay mechanic as much as it is a request to force players into fair fights, which can never happen without turning EVE into a wholly different game. Read my post on the last page for my description of what people complained about before boosting became a "thing." They're not complaining about boosting, but about 1vs2. It's as simple as that.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#203 - 2014-12-05 05:25:38 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:

Boosting doesn't make you automatically win. You still have to put out effort, and you can still be overwhelmed, outmaneuvered, and outsmarted. Boosts just give you a little extra.

Your posts still smack of "I want it gone because I'm afraid of using it, and hate fighting it".


When two otherwise equal parties meets, the side with boosts will win. This is why links are so common.

So what?


It's ****** gameplay and closer to pay-to-win than any other mechanic in EVE. It would be more fun and interesting for all parties if receiving bonuses depended on an active human player making the right decisions in combat. See my suggestion earlier in this thread.


When two otherwise equal parties meet and one has an advantage, the side with that advantage will win. Boosts are not unique in this regard.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#204 - 2014-12-05 05:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Epeen
Shaleb Heworo wrote:

How are arenas the same as making the game more about actual skill?


I've heard that. I've often seen EVE compared to Chess as opposed to something like..say...pin the purple penis on Jesus.

In Chess you often end up in a situation where a piece is being covered by another. If you are blissfully unaware of what's on the board and take it, you lose your queen. Much the same as having your ship being covered (boosted in this example) by another. If you are situationally blind and attack that ship, you are at a disadvantage.

So it seems to me that playing with OGB requires much more actual skill than just running up and bitchslapping each other until one blows up.

Mr Epeen Cool
Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2014-12-05 05:53:43 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
They just want arenas. This new gaming generation wants "honorable" duels, and lots of grindy pve content. There's been a fundamental paradigm shift in gamer mentality after the XBox rolled around. But I digress, as this is getting a bit off-topic.

How are arenas the same as making the game more about actual skill? because that's what capsuleers who are against ogb essentially want: They want the game to be more about how you pilot your spaceship and less about invisible second account super powers.

Think about what that desire entails at its very core: to circumvent EVE's open-ended nature, with all of the strategy, planning, and thinking associated with any action, and instead to force players into as homogenized, normalized of an environment as possible.

As I said before, this isn't a request to remove an undesired gameplay mechanic as much as it is a request to force players into fair fights, which can never happen without turning EVE into a wholly different game. Read my post on the last page for my description of what people complained about before boosting became a "thing." They're not complaining about boosting, but about 1vs2. It's as simple as that.


Tell me more about how much strategy, planning, and skill is necessary to tote a cloaky booster alt around fw space whilst occasionally hitting f1.
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#206 - 2014-12-05 05:55:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleb Heworo
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
They just want arenas. This new gaming generation wants "honorable" duels, and lots of grindy pve content. There's been a fundamental paradigm shift in gamer mentality after the XBox rolled around. But I digress, as this is getting a bit off-topic.

How are arenas the same as making the game more about actual skill? because that's what capsuleers who are against ogb essentially want: They want the game to be more about how you pilot your spaceship and less about invisible second account super powers.

Think about what that desire entails at its very core: to circumvent EVE's open-ended nature, with all of the strategy, planning, and thinking associated with any action, and instead to force players into as homogenized, normalized of an environment as possible.

As I said before, this isn't a request to remove an undesired gameplay mechanic as much as it is a request to force players into fair fights, which can never happen without turning EVE into a wholly different game. Read my post on the last page for my description of what people complained about before boosting became a "thing." They're not complaining about boosting, but about 1vs2. It's as simple as that.


I think you really misunderstand the oponents of ogb. As far as i know many of them fight gangs/superior hulls all the time. In fact it's these "unfair" fights which are the most fun for many pilots because it's gratifying to beat the odds by tactical means. That's one core motivation not only in Eve but in any any tactical game. The problem with ogb is that there is no tactical counter because the booster is... well off grid. Often you will notice the booster when your kiting ship gets webbed at 18km by an 7m isk incursus. You write about homogenization but removing ogb would in fact put more emphasis on tactical piloting skills and fitting strategy. Capsuleers will actually be forced to think harder and fly better to catch that kiter instead of relying on their second account which boosts every hull from rookie ship to t3 with the same abilities. Therefore your whole argument about normalization and homogenization is imo really misleading.
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2014-12-05 06:02:10 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
They just want arenas. This new gaming generation wants "honorable" duels, and lots of grindy pve content. There's been a fundamental paradigm shift in gamer mentality after the XBox rolled around. But I digress, as this is getting a bit off-topic.




How are arenas the same as making the game more about actual skill? because that's what capsuleers who are against ogb essentially want: They want the game to be more about how you pilot your spaceship and less about invisible second account super powers.



What part of "EVE is not a twitch game" are you not understanding?

There are many different kinds of skills. In EVE, your skill in combat is in how you fit your ship and how you take best advantage of your resources. You don't actually pilot your ship. You command it. Therefore, everything that goes into direct combat is centered around how you command your ship.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#208 - 2014-12-05 06:07:59 UTC
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:


Tell me more about how much strategy, planning, and skill is necessary to tote a cloaky booster alt around fw space whilst occasionally hitting f1.


The inferior player's go-to insult.... "how much skill can it take to press F1?"
Well, if it was so friggin easy to win, why do you lose ships so often?

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#209 - 2014-12-05 06:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Demerius Xenocratus wrote:
Tell me more about how much strategy, planning, and skill is necessary to tote a cloaky booster alt around fw space whilst occasionally hitting f1.

Not any more or less than is required to tote around an alternate character of any kind if you're facing only one target.

Shaleb Heworo wrote:
The problem with ogb is that there is no tactical counter because the booster is... well off grid.

What.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#210 - 2014-12-05 06:31:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleb Heworo
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
They just want arenas. This new gaming generation wants "honorable" duels, and lots of grindy pve content. There's been a fundamental paradigm shift in gamer mentality after the XBox rolled around. But I digress, as this is getting a bit off-topic.




How are arenas the same as making the game more about actual skill? because that's what capsuleers who are against ogb essentially want: They want the game to be more about how you pilot your spaceship and less about invisible second account super powers.



What part of "EVE is not a twitch game" are you not understanding?

There are many different kinds of skills. In EVE, your skill in combat is in how you fit your ship and how you take best advantage of your resources. You don't actually pilot your ship. You command it. Therefore, everything that goes into direct combat is centered around how you command your ship.


In all honesty: That might be the reason why you don't understand how broken ogb is: You don't pilot your ship. You see the strategic aspect only. Pilots in solo/small gang pvp have to rely on spaceship piloting tactics like kiting or slingshots and for reasons already stated that's exactly where obg becomes a problem. You on the other hand try to negate that problem by defining eve as a game of grand strategy where the opinion of those who focus on fast paced solo/small gang pvp can be disregarded because afterall it's just those players who play the wrong game. The truth is that both aspects are a part of eve and therefore you should listen to the players who have a problem in their part of the sandbox.
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
Senpai's Afterschool Anime and Gaming Club
#211 - 2014-12-05 06:39:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Destiny Corrupted
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
In all honesty: That might be the reason why you don't understand how broken ogb is: You don't pilot your ship. You see the strategic aspect only. Pilots in solo/small gang pvp have to rely on spaceship piloting tactics like kiting or slingshots and for reasons already stated that's exactly where obg becomes a problem. You on the other hand try to negate that problem by defining eve as a game of grand strategy where the opinion of those who focus on fast paced solo/small gang pvp can be disregarded because afterall it's just those players who play the wrong game. The truth is that both aspects are a part of eve and therefore you should listen to the players who have a problem in their part of the sandbox.

EVE is a tactical game by its very nature. It's much more tactical than action-based, and piloting your ship actually requires very little skill. You can glorify your FW frigate exploits all you want, but I fly small ships too, and stand by my statement. Most fights are decided before they happen, not after.

Furthermore, if we're to only "listen to the players who have a problem in their part of the sandbox," EVE is going to experience some very drastic changes. For example, the people losing their autopiloting haulers full of crap to gankers at high-sec gates have a problem in their part of the sandbox. I guess that means we need to address that as soon aspossible, right? Or are we going to have a double standard?

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#212 - 2014-12-05 06:44:15 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:


In all honesty: That might be the reason why you don't understand how broken ogb is: You don't pilot your ship. You see the strategic aspect only. Pilots in solo/small gang pvp have to rely on spaceship piloting tactics like kiting or slingshots and for reasons already stated that's exactly where obg becomes a problem. You on the other hand try to negate that problem by defining eve as a game of grand strategy where the opinion of those who focus on fast paced solo/small gang pvp can be disregarded because afterall it's just those players who play the wrong game. The truth is that both aspects are a part of eve and therefore you should listen to the players who have a problem in their part of the sandbox.



Yeah, because commanding your ship and using strategy has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with making sure your transversal is high, or knowing when to pull range, or what ranges you should orbit certain kinds of targets, or breaking up an enemy fleet by kiting away, or when to/when not to overheat.

Come on now. Don't be silly. I win 9 out of every 10 fights I get into, with or without my fleet. You're not talking to a novice.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Jarod Garamonde
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2014-12-05 06:50:13 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:

EVE is a tactical game by its very nature. It's much more tactical than action-based, and piloting your ship actually requires very little skill. You can glorify your FW frigate exploits all you want, but I fly small ships too, and stand by my statement. Most fights are decided before they happen, not after.


Oh, but he's FW. The land of fantasy where if you're warpcore stabbed or you cloak up on the beacon when someone enters local, that means you won because you're better than them, and you're now free to talk smack in local whilst you hide.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Sabarian Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#214 - 2014-12-05 08:25:12 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Soon™



Off-grid boosting should stay.
Don't like it? Probe down the booster alt, and kill it.


I see you missed the part where he said they just park their happy asses on station and dock at the first sign of trouble.

You should feel quite lucky that it has apparently never happened that way for you. I have a feeling that puts you in a minority.
Sabarian Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#215 - 2014-12-05 08:27:38 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I'm fine with OGB and I'll tell you why.

To make a good booster takes a long time. It's not like banging out a gank alt on a trial. It's more than six months of focused min/max training to do one simple thing. To add on grid capabilities to that would be another number of months.


Hogwash. I bought mine at the character bazaar with the 7B that I was able to afford because Im a long-time player. With 5 accounts I can afford to plex too. It's not fair to the little guy either way.
Sabarian Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#216 - 2014-12-05 08:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Sabarian Thraxx
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Soon™



Off-grid boosting should stay.
Don't like it? Probe down the booster alt, and kill it.


Can't do that without a probing account. Which brings you back to the point where a second account shifts the odds to a point where you basically "need" one to compete in pvp. Can you see how this might discourage new players?


Why the hell do you need another account just for probing? There is literally nothing stopping you from training probing skills and strapping a probe launcher on a combat ship. OGB alts are usually untanked, sitting at a safespot, with mids and lows full of ECCM and sensor backup arrays. The good boosts are coming from Command ships, which would only be able to fit a t1 or improved cloak.. which cant be used while boosting. T3s have less boosts, but can be covert cloaked/nullified.. but once again.. not while boosting. T3s would also be running command processors, taking more midslots. And during combat, most OGB alts aren't tabbed to or d-scanning.

TLDR, Drop some damn combat scanner probes and start probing while other people are fighting. Best case scenario, you get a hit, you warp to it, point it and **** it, worst case scenario.. the OGB alt is d-scanning, sees your probes and either warps or cloaks.. effectively taking them out of the fight anyways.

WTL;SDFR (Way too long:Still didn't ******* read) Stop blaming OGB because you are averted to effort.



Sorry to disagree with you, but youre wrong for 2 reasons:

1. As mentioned in the OP, often the boosters sit on station and dock at the first sign of trouble. Not also that anyone shooting them is going to get the sentry guns firing on them while Happy McFuktard docks.

2. Oh, so just strap a probe launcher and probe em down?

We're usually talking firgates here in FW, right? Here's some facts for you

Expanded Probe Launcher 1 - 220 CPU to fit
Expanded Probe Launcher 2 - 242 CPU to fit.
Sisters Expanded Probe Launcher - 242 CPU to fit.

Sorry my friend, but this time your post looks rather like a troll, as what youre suggesting is not really feasible.
Sabarian Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#217 - 2014-12-05 08:37:18 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:



Does a 4-star General or Admiral directly participate in a battle?
No. They observe and give orders to frontline commanders, and the battle is swayed by their influence.


Do the enemy combatants have a reasonable expectation of a warfield that somehow doesnt excesibly punish the new soldiers? No?

Straw Man.
Sabarian Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#218 - 2014-12-05 08:43:57 UTC
Destiny Corrupted wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Zappity wrote:
Destiny Corrupted wrote:


If you can name a legit, objective difference, then you have some semblance of an argument.

The logistics have to come on grid to have any effect.

*POW* right in the kisser!
Big smile

Don't try to cherry-pick your arguments like that.


I didnt see any cherries being picked. You asked a valid and simple 1-line question, and got a simple 1-line answer that should have been satisfactory to you.

Quote:

We're talking about a 1v1+1 scenario here. If you're already engaged with an enemy who's tackling you, there's nothing you can do about that logistics cruiser that comes on grid 70km away from you. I know this for a fact, because I've been doing wars for the past forever, and that's how every such engagement played out. Whether it's a booster, or a logistics, or even another dps ship, the average utility during the fight will lean in favor of the party with twice as many characters in play.

And don't tell me something like "well, you can just break free of the combat ship and engage the logistics," because if that was the case, then there'd be nothing to complain about in the first place; you could de-aggro from any fight, booster or otherwise. Keep all other factors constant in this equation.


tl'dr can't admit it when someone blows my case out of the water in 1 simple sentence. Roll
Sabarian Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#219 - 2014-12-05 08:48:15 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:
Jarod Garamonde wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Soon™



Off-grid boosting should stay.
Don't like it? Probe down the booster alt, and kill it.


Can't do that without a probing account. Which brings you back to the point where a second account shifts the odds to a point where you basically "need" one to compete in pvp. Can you see how this might discourage new players?


Or with the scanning module and the mobile depot in my cargohold, but hey...who needs adaptability? I only fly 1 fit ever after all...



so before you enter a plex or engage a wt at the gate you jump to your safespot drop depot, wait timer, refit, scan for booster, realize that said booster is a command ship sitting at station/realize you can't scan down the booster with an unbonused hull, refit for combat anyway and finally warp back to not fight the target because you don't know if it's associated with said booster? seriously, enlighten me.

Wouldn't it MAYBE be better to just let a terrible mechanic go for the sake of more pilots willing to engage spontaniously and more action for everyone?


No dude, you cant do that. Look at the CPU on your frigs, then look at the CPU requirement for expanded probe launchers. You cant fit them, suggesting so was an ignorant excuse on some ppl's parts.
Sabarian Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#220 - 2014-12-05 08:54:18 UTC
Jarod Garamonde wrote:

I see what your problem is, mate. You're just a neckbeard....


From what Ive seen in local chats and on these forums, folks are either about 14 years old or really ignorant or just a "hipster" who says "neckbeard" because all the other lemmings jumping on an insult bandwagon against someone says it.

I mean really, "neckbeard?" Do you know what that means? How the f**k do you equate that to someone whom you believe to be making $****** arguments? Or even if you think theyre an ********, wtf does a neckbeard have to do with that? It's really dumb, man.

And to think I used to brag that I played a game for smart people. Lemme tell ya folks, I dont do that anymore.