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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Tikitina
Doomheim
#7841 - 2014-10-08 20:28:54 UTC
Brittney Calm wrote:
Kilab Gercias wrote:
First Test on Sisi.

Titan Jump Bridge also the Titan gets the Timer for Bridging.


Confirmed.

Bridging a fleet gets the fleet fatigue timer, and even though the titan did NOT jump he has fatigue as well.

-BC



Did you file a bug report?
Gwailar
Doomheim
#7842 - 2014-10-08 20:31:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwailar
Veskrashen wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Isn't this rather exploitable in a home-defense sort of situation? I.e. as soon as you jump back to your origin system you reset to Fatigue = 1 (since you'll be multiplying all those modifiers by 0, which means you're taking current fatigue ^ 0, which always equals 1), which at the current decay rate would give you Fatigue = 0 in 10 minutes? That would essentially mean that you can rapidly deploy with Z lightyears of home base, hammer something, and head home - getting less and less fatigue accumulated as you do so. Once you're home, 10 minutes later you're totally refreshed and ready to go.

It also means that you can hop in your capitals, hammer the snot out of someone 15-20 LY from "home base", jump back home, get in your interceptors, spend 20-30 minutes crossing the map, and do the exact same thing there.

It's an interesting solution, but there's no reason to so heavily advantage teleportation in and around home systems, especially in such an exploitable way.


Especially when the advantage is not based on home system, but origin system--which in the case of the big blocks means any system they have a cache.

Seems totally exploitable.
Offering any sort of fatigue reset that doesn't involve actual time passing breaks the whole thing.

EDIT:
Although you're not really multiplying by zero.

If I'm jumping back to the actual origin system, then I have:
Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(0 * A + B)

0*A+B =/= 0

Using the original .3 suggestion for B, then I basically get:
Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)/3

Still reducing fatigue without the passage of time, which breaks the whole thing.
But not quite to 1.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#7843 - 2014-10-08 20:34:06 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Isn't this rather exploitable in a home-defense sort of situation? I.e. as soon as you jump back to your origin system you reset to Fatigue = 1 (since you'll be multiplying all those modifiers by 0, which means you're taking current fatigue ^ 0, which always equals 1), which at the current decay rate would give you Fatigue = 0 in 10 minutes? That would essentially mean that you can rapidly deploy with Z lightyears of home base, hammer something, and head home - getting less and less fatigue accumulated as you do so. Once you're home, 10 minutes later you're totally refreshed and ready to go.

It also means that you can hop in your capitals, hammer the snot out of someone 15-20 LY from "home base", jump back home, get in your interceptors, spend 20-30 minutes crossing the map, and do the exact same thing there.

It's an interesting solution, but there's no reason to so heavily advantage teleportation in and around home systems, especially in such an exploitable way.


+1 on this.

What do you think of just some preset maximum amount of LY per day actually? Like a separate per-character jump capacitor proposal from somebody else in this thread basically. I don't really understand the rationale behind exponential penalty mechanic with penalty going into tens of days tbh.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#7844 - 2014-10-08 20:34:28 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Isn't this rather exploitable in a home-defense sort of situation? I.e. as soon as you jump back to your origin system you reset to Fatigue = 1 (since you'll be multiplying all those modifiers by 0, which means you're taking current fatigue ^ 0, which always equals 1), which at the current decay rate would give you Fatigue = 0 in 10 minutes? That would essentially mean that you can rapidly deploy with Z lightyears of home base, hammer something, and head home - getting less and less fatigue accumulated as you do so. Once you're home, 10 minutes later you're totally refreshed and ready to go.

It also means that you can hop in your capitals, hammer the snot out of someone 15-20 LY from "home base", jump back home, get in your interceptors, spend 20-30 minutes crossing the map, and do the exact same thing there.

It's an interesting solution, but there's no reason to so heavily advantage teleportation in and around home systems, especially in such an exploitable way.


Especially when the advantage is not based on home system, but origin system--which in the case of the big blocks means any system they have a cache.

Seems totally exploitable.
Offering any sort of fatigue reset that doesn't involve actual time passing breaks the whole thing.



They didn't plan on players catching on so quick, me thinks.
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#7845 - 2014-10-08 20:35:43 UTC
Confirming the calculations on SiSi are messed up.
Bridged a Helios with a Sin 1.136 LY and both the Helios pilot and the bridging Sin pilot got 22 minutes of jump fatigue and a 2 minute jump timer.
Good job CCP.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#7846 - 2014-10-08 20:38:53 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
mynnna wrote:
I've been playing with this for a couple days, and here's the adjustment I propose:

Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(Destination Distance from Origin * A + B)

Isn't this rather exploitable in a home-defense sort of situation? I.e. as soon as you jump back to your origin system you reset to Fatigue = 1 (since you'll be multiplying all those modifiers by 0, which means you're taking current fatigue ^ 0, which always equals 1), which at the current decay rate would give you Fatigue = 0 in 10 minutes? That would essentially mean that you can rapidly deploy with Z lightyears of home base, hammer something, and head home - getting less and less fatigue accumulated as you do so. Once you're home, 10 minutes later you're totally refreshed and ready to go.

It also means that you can hop in your capitals, hammer the snot out of someone 15-20 LY from "home base", jump back home, get in your interceptors, spend 20-30 minutes crossing the map, and do the exact same thing there.

It's an interesting solution, but there's no reason to so heavily advantage teleportation in and around home systems, especially in such an exploitable way.


+1 on this.

What do you think of just some preset maximum amount of LY per day actually? Like a separate per-character jump capacitor proposal from somebody else in this thread basically. I don't really understand the rationale behind exponential penalty mechanic with penalty going into tens of days tbh.



The Devs apparently want to give an advantage to local jumping under 20 ly and limit Capital jump drive operations outside a localized area.

They want to promote organized gate travel for long range assaults instead of hot-dropping O'clock around the clock.

This makes local defense easier while making long range assaults a lot harder. Which is why some are so pissed off about it.
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#7847 - 2014-10-08 20:39:10 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Confirming the calculations on SiSi are messed up.
Bridged a Helios with a Sin 1.136 LY and both the Helios pilot and the bridging Sin pilot got 22 minutes of jump fatigue and a 2 minute jump timer.
Good job CCP.

Oh no you found bugs in a new release of a brand new mechanic on the test system.

Lord alive, the world has completely collapsed. Run and save your children!!!

Bug report it and move on ffs.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
Tikitina
Doomheim
#7848 - 2014-10-08 20:40:52 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Confirming the calculations on SiSi are messed up.
Bridged a Helios with a Sin 1.136 LY and both the Helios pilot and the bridging Sin pilot got 22 minutes of jump fatigue and a 2 minute jump timer.
Good job CCP.


What did you expect deployable quality on the first try a month before it goes live? Roll

Bug report it and move on.
Dinger
Task Force Delta-14
#7849 - 2014-10-08 20:44:38 UTC
The Darknec wrote:
Here is a thought on this timer thing and what not, you want to slow movement that's obvious.

Why not make it to where for a 5ly jump it takes say 10min of your cool little wormhole effect before you land on where the cyno had been. Then have another 5 min or so cool down before you could make another jump.


That just wouldn't work, under such a system any cyno becomes a beacon saying "in 10 minutes there's going to be a nice big possibly defenceless target here, come get him" the current idea is to make movement via jump drive harder, not totally impractical.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Dream Five wrote:

If you can achieve the same goal with a simpler formula that's a strictly better solution.

Remove jump drives completely.

(cept' for JF's and Blops...they still get ugly math..) :)


I could see that being CCPs plan B if the current proposal fails to acheive the desired effect.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7850 - 2014-10-08 20:45:59 UTC
Tikitina wrote:

They didn't plan on players catching on so quick, me thinks.

i can assure you that mynnna did plan on posters making incorrect responses to his idea nearly immediately from people who do not understand math
Tsukinosuke
Id Est
RAZOR Alliance
#7851 - 2014-10-08 20:49:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsukinosuke
Tikitina wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Confirming the calculations on SiSi are messed up.
Bridged a Helios with a Sin 1.136 LY and both the Helios pilot and the bridging Sin pilot got 22 minutes of jump fatigue and a 2 minute jump timer.
Good job CCP.


What did you expect deployable quality on the first try a month before it goes live? Roll

Bug report it and move on.



the whole idea is bug.. the problem is star map, outer systems are too closer each other..

there is a rule for players in new eden, "dont fly what you cant afford to" and a rule for DEV as well, "dont fix what aint broken"..

anti-antagonist "not a friend of enemy of antagonist"
kxdan
Absolute Order XVI
Absolute Honor
#7852 - 2014-10-08 20:50:20 UTC
Anyone else selling their capitals?
These changes seem ridiculous, and its just going to make it so that huge alliances just keep blobs in different places or get bigger to have blobs more spread out.

Stargates? Come on....
Maybe a player owned stargate but a simple stargate, do you know how long it takes to align a capital ship without webs?!

Why don't you just make it so it takes longer to jump, like instead of instantly appearing its like a warp animation which takes a few minutes.
Jump fatigue though... Wow....


My two cents, bad ideas

-kx
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#7853 - 2014-10-08 20:51:25 UTC
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Confirming the calculations on SiSi are messed up.
Bridged a Helios with a Sin 1.136 LY and both the Helios pilot and the bridging Sin pilot got 22 minutes of jump fatigue and a 2 minute jump timer.
Good job CCP.

Oh no you found bugs in a new release of a brand new mechanic on the test system.

Lord alive, the world has completely collapsed. Run and save your children!!!

Bug report it and move on ffs.


They are using a pretty simple formula, how you mess it up that bad is the issue for me.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7854 - 2014-10-08 20:54:05 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
Confirming the calculations on SiSi are messed up.
Bridged a Helios with a Sin 1.136 LY and both the Helios pilot and the bridging Sin pilot got 22 minutes of jump fatigue and a 2 minute jump timer.
Good job CCP.

Oh no you found bugs in a new release of a brand new mechanic on the test system.

Lord alive, the world has completely collapsed. Run and save your children!!!

Bug report it and move on ffs.


They are using a pretty simple formula, how you mess it up that bad is the issue for me.

you do know that an eve lightyear isn't even a real lightyear, right

they gave up copying the digits down like a third of the way through, which has plauged mapping tools for the better part of a decade
Gwailar
Doomheim
#7855 - 2014-10-08 20:55:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwailar
Retar Aveymone wrote:
What it would actually work out to be is Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(b)) (the distance *a drops out as zero).

So, it would then depend on B. But as long as B is not zero then no, you don't zero out your fatigue by jumping back to orgin


No, you wouldn't zero it, but assuming the .3 for B originally proposed, you'd reduce it to 30% of (Total Fatigue + Distance of Jump).

Any options for reducing fatigue that don't involve the actual passage of time break the proposed changes.

With this system, all I have to do is make my final jump home a tiny bunny hop to reduce my fatigue by 70%.
Then one tiny jump out and one tiny jump back. Repeat as necessary.

Totally exploitable by silly jump-dances near the origin. This actually incentivises stupid jump gimmickry.

The only way this would work if B were always equal to or greater than 1.

And doing that would cause this system to also generate very high fatigue values.

"Mmmmm. PoonWaffles."   --Mittens the Cat
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7856 - 2014-10-08 20:55:42 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
EDIT:
Although you're not really multiplying by zero.

If I'm jumping back to the actual origin system, then I have:
Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(0 * A + B)

0*A+B =/= 0

Using the original .3 suggestion for B, then I basically get:
Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)/3

Still reducing fatigue without the passage of time, which breaks the whole thing.
But not quite to 1.

Good catch, you're right that I implied an extra parenthesis.

Moreover, even if it's a simple "reduce your Fatigue to 1/3 it's previous value by jumping home", then you've got a situation where you just jump home, take a gate next door, jump home, repeat until Fatigue = not worth bothering to take the gate anymore.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
kxdan
Absolute Order XVI
Absolute Honor
#7857 - 2014-10-08 20:56:21 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Are you guys high?

No seriously, have any of the people who came up with these changes ever played Eve before?

You've just killed off nullsec logistics singlehandedly. You've just made the minimum requirement to be in null the ability to fly an interceptor. You've just killed black ops fleets. You've made it impossible to enter half the regions in the game without using a gate. You've just made it impossible to live in most of the NPC null regions. You've not restricted capital fights, you've eliminated them from the game entirely.

Are we being trolled? Are you trying to kill off your own game?



^ This
Dream Five
Renegade Pleasure Androids
#7858 - 2014-10-08 20:57:45 UTC
Gwailar wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
What it would actually work out to be is Fatigue = (Fatigue Before Jump + Distance of Jump)^(b)) (the distance *a drops out as zero).

So, it would then depend on B. But as long as B is not zero then no, you don't zero out your fatigue by jumping back to orgin


No, you wouldn't zero it, but assuming the .3 for B originally proposed, you'd reduce it to 30% of (Total Fatigue + Distance of Jump).

Any options for reducing fatigue that don't involve the actual passage of time break the proposed changes.

With this system, all I have to do is make my final jump home a tiny bunny hop to reduce my fatigue by 70%.
Then one tiny jump out and one tiny jump back. Repeat as necessary.

Totally exploitable by silly jump-dances near the origin. This actually incentivises stupid jump gimmickry.

The only way this would work if B were always equal to or greater than 1.

And doing that would cause this system to also generate very high fatigue values.


Those sneaky goons.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7859 - 2014-10-08 21:05:23 UTC
kxdan wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Are you guys high?

No seriously, have any of the people who came up with these changes ever played Eve before?

You've just killed off nullsec logistics singlehandedly. You've just made the minimum requirement to be in null the ability to fly an interceptor. You've just killed black ops fleets. You've made it impossible to enter half the regions in the game without using a gate. You've just made it impossible to live in most of the NPC null regions. You've not restricted capital fights, you've eliminated them from the game entirely.

Are we being trolled? Are you trying to kill off your own game?

^ This

Nope. We're just Old Skool Eve Players, back when things were actually difficult and you had to take gates from place to place even if you weren't a poor.

HTFU.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7860 - 2014-10-08 21:06:15 UTC
Dream Five wrote:
Those sneaky goons.

Give the devil his due, for damn sure.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."