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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#701 - 2014-10-01 19:10:23 UTC
CCP Logibro wrote:
Changes are coming to how long distance travel works in EVE Online. If use jump drives, then this is an important dev blog for you. Find all the details from CCP Greyscale and the Nullsec working group here.


Horrible. Just horrible.

Will this help promote the "big blue donut" or break it apart?

By trying to use a dual prong approach I think that in some cases it will probably promote less conflict.

Consider the case of Stain. Already doing logistics down into Stain is a difficult proposition. Making the jump from low sec down to Stain in a JF is restricted to Saminer to T-NN or NRT. After these changes that jump will no longer be possible. The idea of independent corporations and alliances living in Stain is no longer an option. To really survive in Stain for a prolonged basis will require that the Denizens bend their knee to whomever holds Catch. Whomever owns Catch is also the de facto owner of Stain.

Lets consider another region that has NPC space: Fountain. Fountain has long had a history of having independent corporations and alliances living in Serpentis space constantly being a PITA for whichever alliance owns Fountain. After this change however, getting supplies into Fountain is going to be a much harder problem. Jumping from Hophib into Serpentis Space is outside the 5 LY range.


I haven't checked Venal, but I'm betting that Tribute is more than 5 LY wide and jumping there is going to be an issue once these changes are in place.

The only work around I can see is to place towers. But after having towers getting blown up by the sov holders some of these alliances and corps might work out....NAPs.

In short, the dual pronged approach may very well lead to the very opposite of what is intended.
Arun Tadaruwa
Hotbirds
#702 - 2014-10-01 19:10:27 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
The abolition of podjumping makes it massively difficult for our newbies to join us in Deklein. Has any thought been put into that?


Same for brave. Our basic instructions to new players is "sell all your stuff and pod express to Catch"

Now our instructions will have to be "don't bother you'll never make it"


You guys are terrible.
Null navigation is cheese.

Alt posting because yes.
BinaryData
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#703 - 2014-10-01 19:10:28 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
A little of the reasoning, as far as I'm aware:

While big fights are nice and all, the ability to hot drop someone on the other side of New Eden leads to people avoiding fights, so they don't get dropped by, say, PL being bat phoned.


That's simple fix.

Capitals still have the CD timer, based upon the length of their jumps. So, let's try this out..

If a Thanatos can jump it's max range, say 15LY, then give it a cd timer of say, 1 minute for every 1.5LY moved, or even 1:1 ratio.

You're trying to promote subcap fleets, in an era where Supers/Titans exist to a far superior number than originally thought. Why not hamper the capitals?

Nerfing the range like that, is simply asinine. I spent a better part of 2 years perfecting my capital skills, only to have CCP theorize about changing them again. Honestly, if this change happens, I want my skillpoints back. That'd be roughly, 5 - 15million points given back to me.

I'd rather see cool down timers, and nerfs happen to the capitals. Reduced capacitor regeneration, damaged shields, etc.. If you jump into a fight, using capitals as logistics will make life harder. This current course of action, will deter a lot of players from getting into capitals.

Also, balancing capitals to have the same range as the Jump Bridges, is like optimizing a Beetle to run like a Porsche. It doesn't work that way. Jump Bridges make life easier for those who are defending, and makes logistics that much easier. I lose more and more respect for CCP, every time you release a blog. You're so focused on balancing, that your creative minds aren't giving new content. What new content we get, only affects a small % of the population. Burner Missions for example, dumbest idea ever.
Tribal Trogdor
Doomheim
#704 - 2014-10-01 19:10:28 UTC
About caps jumping gates:

1) Carrier gate camps - If they sit 0 on gate, they have more than enough subcap killing potential along with enough RR potential to wait out 60 seconds of aggro if needed. This wouldn't be so bad in null as there are bubbles to keep them on the other side, but in low, how is this to be countered? Breaking a fair amount in under 60 seconds would take a fair amount of dreads, which have to siege and get stuck for 5 minutes, while the carriers are only stuck for 60. If the carriers jump out via the gate, they can align out, blap anything that might be sat on the other side to stop them (as most are stuck next door and the real DPS cant follow) and dock up. Even in null though, the dreads are still stuck out of the fight, unless of course they burn to the gate, jump in, and hope the archons hadn't reapproached in the time O.o

2) Cyno Jammers - Drop cyno next door, warp to gate, jump in. Kinda kills the point of it, yea?
Twizted3
Boomer Humor
Snuffed Out
#705 - 2014-10-01 19:10:52 UTC
If these changes happen, you will lose my 3 subs and most of my alliance will be right behind me. Current devs are terrible, the only people this change is good for, is people who fly small gangs and like to dip their toes into low/null and worry about getting hot dropped by bigger groups.
Tamirr U'tath
Rotciv Rrama Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#706 - 2014-10-01 19:10:56 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
The abolition of podjumping makes it massively difficult for our newbies to join us in Deklein. Has any thought been put into that?


Same for brave. Our basic instructions to new players is "sell all your stuff and pod express to Catch"

Now our instructions will have to be "don't bother you'll never make it"



What about interdiction nullified shuttles for newbies?

It lets them move around, and a buffed shuttle isn't anything a vet in an interceptor can't do better.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#707 - 2014-10-01 19:11:17 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
[
Black ops balance is something that's definitely still open for discussion. Thanks for this post :)


No problem.

I don't like the exponential factoring in given the problems with cool down time others expressed. However if a set system is to be put into place, there needs to be a benefit to using a Black Ops ship. As it currently stands, there is none as it is penalized the same as a Capital ship.

Please consider this when discussing with the CSM about these changes and number balances. I wouldn't go so far as to say that BLOPs should be half the Capital ship cool down factor, but it's certainly worthy of having smaller cool down than a capital.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#708 - 2014-10-01 19:11:20 UTC
Securitas Protector wrote:


This is untrue; any two timers close in time but far in distance will be quite difficult to defend against. Not impossible, especially if you use local forces to defend, but more difficult to bring coalition weight to bear.

Are there workarounds? Sure, there always will be, but it's extremely discouraged.


Easy work around - maintain capital caches within a covering range of all your systems, maintain jump clones within range of those caches with travel fit inty's to get to them.

I don't think making eve play out more slowly is a good change for sov null. Things are already too slow and involve waiting out too many timers. I play to play, not to play for a few seconds then wait 10 minutes to play again, then wait 50 minutes, then wait 5 hours.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#709 - 2014-10-01 19:11:25 UTC
This is an amazing change and I think people are failing already to see the long term implications of what you're doing here today.

Change nothing (you dont need to effect Jump Clones since at best you can only use that to move every 19 hours) and ship it as is, dont cave to any whining about any of it.

You either use gates, or you pay the price to move through teleportation for any ship in EVE.


I expect a lot more roaming coming into our Eve.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Higgs Foton
Mission And Mining Inc
#710 - 2014-10-01 19:11:35 UTC
Personally i see these changes as a small nuisance at best for me personally. It will limit my nullsec production since my production lines are three JB's away from the central hub, so i will probably have to move that closer. That will not be an issiue i think. On the onther hand this will make the western part of the map a near impenetrable fortress. With the huge capital fleet present in Deklein and several other regions the CFC are now near untouchable. Which is a good thing from my carebear standpoint. Deklein/western part of the map also close to highsec so not really a problem getting my deadspace loot to Jita. I mostly use wormholes for that anyway.

I think these changes are really really bad if you live in the south or in the east, since the distance of most of the systems there is far away from highsec. If you live in Feytabolis or Cobalt Edge you are now royally intercoursed. :) Happy flying your jumpfreighter through gates to highsec. Muhahahahaha. I forsee a future of CFC interceptor fleets picking off freighters and jumpfreighters in several far off regions. The tears! Hehehehe Twisted

Most of the CFC already have ships and jumpclones in different systems on the western part of the map, so most of these changes will not affect us that much. I can also totally see caches of capital ships being spread out over several regions with people using jumpclones or interceptors to get there.

What this change will acomplish is only better the already good organisation of the CFC. If nerfing power projection is the goal i am pretty sure it has failed already. Bring it on! :)
Warde Guildencrantz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#711 - 2014-10-01 19:11:37 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Makari Aeron wrote:
As it stands, I believe this plan, while interesting is going to kill off T2 production in EVE, especially nullsec. There is no possible way to move large quantities of moongoo easily anymore.

This also means that normal cynos in space are going to be extra vulnerable. HOWEVER, this will significantly reduce hotdrops....so that's a plus of sorts.


Reducing the number of hot drops in a game whose economy depends on ships going boom is not and never can be a good thing. CCP is making a bad move here, it remains to be seen how long after it's implemented for this to sit in with them. I expect 'un-nerfs' within 6 to 12 weeks of this change.


This is interesting that you would say, because around 80 percent of fights are scrapped due to Intel on larger fleets. If those larger fleets can't interrupt a fight before the original parties have finished their battle, disengagement and risk avoidance will be less of a concern, meaning more fights will happen, not less.

TunDraGon ~ Low sec piracy since 2003 ~ Youtube ~ Join Us
Bobmon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#712 - 2014-10-01 19:11:41 UTC
as a protest to this change! Time to destroy the: Kings of Lowsec monument

LETS DO THIS!

@BobmonEVE - BOBMON FOR CSM 12
Nirnaeth Ornoediad
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#713 - 2014-10-01 19:12:24 UTC
They might as well have entitled this blog "Victory in the West". Stars are closer together in the west, which means a greater proportion of systems can reside under a capital umbrella, and nobody can make the CFC's ability deploy subcaps across large distances.

I'm looking forward for the first command given to Titans and Supers on a jump-in to be "Align to X gate," though.

Fix POSes.  Every player should want one (even if all players can't have one).
Mira Meroda
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#714 - 2014-10-01 19:12:33 UTC
ic35t0rm wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Guess its time for nullsec to start building their own stuff and have smaller empires, I welcome these changes with open arms.



How? where will you get most T2 mats?
how is t2 product going to get to jita?

15 cyno jumps to get T2 mats to jita with this change.

high sec pvpers will kill anything not jumping

market prices will go way up....

if you don't buy plex's you soon will to buy anything



Depends. If you are in the Drone regions you have a problem, but CFC space will be the best space around :)
Cr Turist
Arcana Noctis
#715 - 2014-10-01 19:13:07 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
This is an amazing change and I think people are failing already to see the long term implications of what you're doing here today.

Change nothing (you dont need to effect Jump Clones since at best you can only use that to move every 19 hours) and ship it as is, dont cave to any whining about any of it.

You either use gates, or you pay the price to move through teleportation for any ship in EVE.


I expect a lot more roaming coming into our Eve.



Carrier roams are a GOOOOOOOOOOO
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#716 - 2014-10-01 19:13:11 UTC
some questions:

Is there expected to be a noticeable impact on isotope usage as some players opt to use gates?
Is it correct to assume that in some circumstances(for instance using regional gate from tenal to cobalt edge) the projection has increased (not overall)? < terribly worded question
Will you consider allowing us to condense the timers in the top right corner slightly? That thjing is going to be very full for a lowsec pirate with jump fatigue/cooldown/NPC aggro/Player Aggro/Weapons timer etc.
Do you expect there to be a increase in capital uasage as cyno alts are no longer required?
On that note how many cyno alt accounts do you expect to be unsubbed/repurposed?
Will there be a follow up capital ships/module tune up or rebalance soon or is that undetermined yet?


Player related questions:
Who else is going to run dread roams after patch?
How many killmails do you expect to see with inertia stabs in the lows?
Anyone can think of really out-of-the box things you can or will do with a capital after patch?
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#717 - 2014-10-01 19:13:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
CCP Greyscale wrote:

It's going to have a significant impact, to be sure, and that's something we need to keep an eye on. At the same time, though, people built T2 ships and modules before jump freighters existed, so we're somewhat skeptical of the argument that that T2 construction is impossible without JFs.

They used carriers, which were longer range than current JFs. JFs were introduced with the carrier nerf (before then, you'd load up iterons in your carrier and it effectively held ~200km3) T2 production has never existed in any serious amount without long-range jump capability, as you'll find in the short period between Castor and Cold War (dreadnaughts can haul) there was very little t2 manufacturing (no invention, t2 expensive as all ******* hell and everyones poor).
ic35t0rm
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#718 - 2014-10-01 19:13:16 UTC
********************** if this happens refund all cap skills ***********************************QuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestionQuestion
Nys Cron
EVE University
Ivy League
#719 - 2014-10-01 19:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nys Cron
This is the worst proposed changed I have seen so far and the first that will probably make me unsub if it goes through. CCP seem to completely misunderstand the problems EVE has and have decided to break the game.

This will essentially remove capitals as an interesting ship class and certainly cause a lot of the older players to unsubscribe because their endgame content just got removed.

Even as W-Space corp this will be unbelievably annoying as we will no longer be able to bring capitals in through most of our nullsec/lowsec connections and JFs will be completely worthless.

As lowsec corp it will be A LOT harder to get supplies, especially for small corps that can not escort their Freighters into lowsec.

For nullsec corps it will make defense much easier, especially for the large coalitions, it will be near impossible to get behind their lines, they only have to defend a comparably small amount of entry systems and will be safe.

As someone already said: I am not playing the game to wait, there is already too much of that. This is a horrible idea for a game mechanic.


The fix for big fights and the broken sov systems lies in changing how capitals work on grid and how sov mechanics work, not in changing jump mechanics.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#720 - 2014-10-01 19:14:04 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
CCP Logibro wrote:
Changes are coming to how long distance travel works in EVE Online. If use jump drives, then this is an important dev blog for you. Find all the details from CCP Greyscale and the Nullsec working group here.


Horrible. Just horrible.

Will this help promote the "big blue donut" or break it apart?

By trying to use a dual prong approach I think that in some cases it will probably promote less conflict.

Consider the case of Stain. Already doing logistics down into Stain is a difficult proposition. Making the jump from low sec down to Stain in a JF is restricted to Saminer to T-NN or NRT. After these changes that jump will no longer be possible. The idea of independent corporations and alliances living in Stain is no longer an option. To really survive in Stain for a prolonged basis will require that the Denizens bend their knee to whomever holds Catch. Whomever owns Catch is also the de facto owner of Stain.

Lets consider another region that has NPC space: Fountain. Fountain has long had a history of having independent corporations and alliances living in Serpentis space constantly being a PITA for whichever alliance owns Fountain. After this change however, getting supplies into Fountain is going to be a much harder problem. Jumping from Hophib into Serpentis Space is outside the 5 LY range.


I haven't checked Venal, but I'm betting that Tribute is more than 5 LY wide and jumping there is going to be an issue once these changes are in place.

The only work around I can see is to place towers. But after having towers getting blown up by the sov holders some of these alliances and corps might work out....NAPs.

In short, the dual pronged approach may very well lead to the very opposite of what is intended.


+1, well said

The unintended consequneces of this change will be incredible...and mostly negative. I'm all good as I learned to use wormholes and transports to move things around from null to empire instead of maintaining a 1.5 bil carrier i rarely use.

CCp will could take a financial hit here as cyno alt accounts are unsubbed, although the opposite could possible happen and more cyno alts are needed lol. Who knows?