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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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uziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#6961 - 2014-10-05 17:43:18 UTC
Falin Whalen wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
1. Not only the huge number of caps but the ability to move materials from high sec to 0.0 to build them. Wanting a farms and fields type game begins with terrain and preventing the JF from selling and shopping at JITA MART. What I find crazy is reading the addiction to high sec the current 0.0 groups have. I thought you guys hated high sec.


1. We need to move massive amounts of material from highsec to 0.0 simply because our fields out in 0.0 don't produce enough Mex for any large scale production. The industry changes did make producing out in 0.0 viable, but without another mineral reballance out in 0.0, mining and producing locally simply isn't viable, also producing T2 out in 0.0 now means you can only produce what your local moons can give you. That is going to suck when you have an armor doctrine and can only produce T2 shield stuff, or the wrong race of T2 ships. If you are having to import raw material just to produce stuff out on the fringes, it would be smarter to simply shut down production and just import the finnished goods from highsec anyway. So yea, we 'hate' highsec, but it still is the only place to shop for everything you need out in the 'frontier'.

The fantasy of mining and producing locally, falls flat on its face when confronted by the reality that you would need to mine out an anomally (the only 'unlimited' source of minerals) anywhere between 20-30 times in order to get the amount of mex to build only 100 battleships. That isn't even half of a Baltec fleet welp. It takes a little over 21 man hours to mine out a small ore site with max Roqual boosts, and you would need to do it 30 times to get the Mex for those 100 battleships. Thats 630 man hours, just to get enough Mex for not even half a fleet that can be lost in less than an hour. Meanwhile what are you going to do with the Megacite to build 3k battleships that you got from cycling an anomally to get enough Mex to poduce only 100. Who is going to buy your surplus Mega if everybody else locally has plenty of highend but no Mex like you. You would ship it to highsec, but now how are you going to get it there to sell that isn't a PITA?


^^^ this guy gets it. If you want to produce locally without highsec supply (or feeding their demand needs Evil ) you need to source locally. That means, mexallon in our ores, moon minerals for reacting composites (not this region specific BS we have now), ice products (via ice fields or some type of alchemy) to run towers and capitals, and access to all the relevant datacores and decryptors for invention.

From the formless void's gaping maw, there springs an entity.  Not an entity such as any you can conceive of, nor I; an entity more primordial than the elements themselves. In its wake there will follow a storm, as the appetite of nothing expands over the world. The Prophecy is true. Grayscale has come.
uziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#6962 - 2014-10-05 17:44:59 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Urban Camo wrote:
Jump fatigue is not the way to go, killing logistics is not the right way to go. The best idea I have seen is capacitor regen rates reduced with each jump. That will affect all ships, after a few jumps, the logos won't be able to generate enough cap for themselves, let alone the fleet they are trying to support .

Though... in a lot of cases carrier blobs aren't constantly running reps. And you do generate cap by means of the capchain (another thing blobbers do)


Or simply docking up. Boom, full cap.

From the formless void's gaping maw, there springs an entity.  Not an entity such as any you can conceive of, nor I; an entity more primordial than the elements themselves. In its wake there will follow a storm, as the appetite of nothing expands over the world. The Prophecy is true. Grayscale has come.
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#6963 - 2014-10-05 17:46:32 UTC
uziel99 wrote:
Falin Whalen wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
1. Not only the huge number of caps but the ability to move materials from high sec to 0.0 to build them. Wanting a farms and fields type game begins with terrain and preventing the JF from selling and shopping at JITA MART. What I find crazy is reading the addiction to high sec the current 0.0 groups have. I thought you guys hated high sec.


1. We need to move massive amounts of material from highsec to 0.0 simply because our fields out in 0.0 don't produce enough Mex for any large scale production. The industry changes did make producing out in 0.0 viable, but without another mineral reballance out in 0.0, mining and producing locally simply isn't viable, also producing T2 out in 0.0 now means you can only produce what your local moons can give you. That is going to suck when you have an armor doctrine and can only produce T2 shield stuff, or the wrong race of T2 ships. If you are having to import raw material just to produce stuff out on the fringes, it would be smarter to simply shut down production and just import the finnished goods from highsec anyway. So yea, we 'hate' highsec, but it still is the only place to shop for everything you need out in the 'frontier'.

The fantasy of mining and producing locally, falls flat on its face when confronted by the reality that you would need to mine out an anomally (the only 'unlimited' source of minerals) anywhere between 20-30 times in order to get the amount of mex to build only 100 battleships. That isn't even half of a Baltec fleet welp. It takes a little over 21 man hours to mine out a small ore site with max Roqual boosts, and you would need to do it 30 times to get the Mex for those 100 battleships. Thats 630 man hours, just to get enough Mex for not even half a fleet that can be lost in less than an hour. Meanwhile what are you going to do with the Megacite to build 3k battleships that you got from cycling an anomally to get enough Mex to poduce only 100. Who is going to buy your surplus Mega if everybody else locally has plenty of highend but no Mex like you. You would ship it to highsec, but now how are you going to get it there to sell that isn't a PITA?


^^^ this guy gets it. If you want to produce locally without highsec supply (or feeding their demand needs Evil ) you need to source locally. That means, mexallon in our ores, moon minerals for reacting composites (not this region specific BS we have now), ice products (via ice fields or some type of alchemy) to run towers and capitals, and access to all the relevant datacores and decryptors for invention.


Or better yet a freighter op to move it out. Nothing has changed but the easy mode. It will no longer be a one man show guys.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6964 - 2014-10-05 17:47:08 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Who will be post 7000?

I though 5000 was me until someone got post removed
Urban Camo
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6965 - 2014-10-05 17:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Urban Camo
uziel99 wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Urban Camo wrote:
Jump fatigue is not the way to go, killing logistics is not the right way to go. The best idea I have seen is capacitor regen rates reduced with each jump. That will affect all ships, after a few jumps, the logos won't be able to generate enough cap for themselves, let alone the fleet they are trying to support .

Though... in a lot of cases carrier blobs aren't constantly running reps. And you do generate cap by means of the capchain (another thing blobbers do)


Or simply docking up. Boom, full cap.


You can't dock supers or titans...... Yet. Even if you dock a carrier, your cap still wouldn't regen enough to maintain a cap chain. It would be a great target super sitting on station while carriers repeatedly dock/undock to cap it up.
Preem Palvor
ExploRiggery Inc.
#6966 - 2014-10-05 17:54:10 UTC
glad to see that the retards at CCP did everything in their power to make Goons win this game.

No fleet that cannot get outblobbed by Goons
No cap support possible to support lower numbers against a blob
No AoE DD to kill blobs

More numbers = sure win as sov will basically be untouchable now.


So bad CCP SO BAD.

It probably started with a good idea but then your execution failed you ... again.

Off course the big blob alliances are in support of this. Who do you think is going to benefit the most of these changes


Just tell the smaller alliances to go and **** themself 'cause that is what yu just did
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#6967 - 2014-10-05 17:54:31 UTC  |  Edited by: DNSBLACK
PSSST- Hey CCP Grayscale and Fozzy could you also fix the moon siphon API so siphons can be used again. i dont want to call anyone out on this but you guys saying they can't be detected isn't working. It would be nice if you could fix it along with these jump changes.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
Citizen's Star Republic
#6968 - 2014-10-05 18:00:04 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:

BLOPS shouldn't out-range anything. If someone moves in with 50 blops and 500 bombers in a system and pounds you all day long, you should be able to counterdrop them with caps to grind out the sov and evict them from the system.

EDIT: and JF aren't even combat vessels. To have blops capable of harassing me with 14 mids from empire while I have to go 28 in my JF is not an attrition situation where the defender can reasonably be expected to defend.



Think of Balck ops as in special forces units....they should be able to travel a bit farther, hit a bit harder, an just generally cause mayhem and chaos.

As to the JF....then get some freaking escorts sheesh how hard is it to drum up a few pilots to serve as scouts, interceptors, and some guys willing to scrifice even long enough for the JF to get away?
Falin Whalen
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#6969 - 2014-10-05 18:12:25 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Urban Camo wrote:
Jump fatigue is not the way to go, killing logistics is not the right way to go. The best idea I have seen is capacitor regen rates reduced with each jump. That will affect all ships, after a few jumps, the logos won't be able to generate enough cap for themselves, let alone the fleet they are trying to support .

Though... in a lot of cases carrier blobs aren't constantly running reps. And you do generate cap by means of the capchain (another thing blobbers do)

What Urban Camo, is thinking now.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6970 - 2014-10-05 18:16:46 UTC
maybe we could refocus the role of black ops now. I know most people have been against a Covert Ops cloak in the past but with its mobility being cut severely it could be justifiable. It goes gate to gate using that, gets as close to target as possible without alerting it (in order to procure a shorter timer) and hot drops.

Of course along with a general rebalance of the ships themselves.
Stoleas
Quantum Link Company
#6971 - 2014-10-05 18:20:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Stoleas
To whomever it may pertain,

I enjoyed reading the dev blog, as always, and am excited to see some change. However, I am unsettled by the drastic changes that lie ahead and am left being both afraid and worried about the future of Eve. I believe that CCP and those making these decisions should think long and hard and maybe inch their way towards their goal rather than setting down some extreme drastic changes with such eagerness for significant change.

  • Jump Fatigue
    • Amazing idea. This should be implemented first and it should be the most drastic change versus the current jump range. After a players first jump 15 minutes to an hour should be fine; keeping logistics with the lowest timer and raising the fatigue depending on class of ship. This would keep engagements in close range and keep people from doing long chain jumps near instantly. 15 minutes would also not hinder the logistics people much as cynos have a 10 minute time anyways and would allow for logistical placement of cynos for those that currently do not have them in place for those that don't already have a significant logistical change.

  • Jump Range
    • If you are going to affect jump range do not do it so drastically. Starting with maybe 10 AU would make sense then scaling it down depending on how the change goes. Keeping the current jump range and reducing the range with fatigue on top of the time that a player can jump would hinder long distance travel. See how that goes and move from there.

  • Can supers use gates after this change?
    • That's just crazy... lets see where that goes.

  • Black Ops
    • The future is most agreeable from the black ops aspect. But why limit them to only 1 or 2 engagements. Why break the smaller gang teamwork? Is jump fuel and low jump range already not a hinderance enough?

  • Very large fatigue values will take a loooong time to decay, is this too much?
    • 15 minutes, 3 hours, 6 hours. Logistics takes longer than this anyways. Keep it drastic in this area. This is CCP's oppurtunity to slip this under the rug without pissing off their clients.

  • Corp cloning
    • Wow... that's cool. But I don't see this change is necessary to make anyone happy.

"Looking forward to getting this significant set of improvements for Nullsec released!" - CCP Fozzie

While I understand eagerness for SIGNIFICANT change, I'm also curious if these people care for their jobs when you end up with a SIGNIFICANTALLY upset community and SIGNIFICANT loss of clientelle. Change is good, change is great when it's in the right direction.
- Does CCP know this is in the right direction?
- Do they only adhere to their SIGNIFICANT instinctual eagerness?
- What are the long term affects to market?

Implement something by addition of features, then go back and tweak the things implemented and the things that the implementation affected.

When I test in prod (wow that's bad already) I make small changes across the board and build as I go. I don't make full-scale changes, expect everything to work, and then break things more when I try to go back to fix them because inevitably something will go wrong. The clients will have already noticed and been upset. So who ends up with the egg on their face?

Regards,
Stoleas
uziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#6972 - 2014-10-05 18:22:57 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:
[

Or better yet a freighter op to move it out. Nothing has changed but the easy mode. It will no longer be a one man show guys.


Escorted by slowcats and blap dreads with T3 taclkers and drone triggers. But industry should have been done first.

From the formless void's gaping maw, there springs an entity.  Not an entity such as any you can conceive of, nor I; an entity more primordial than the elements themselves. In its wake there will follow a storm, as the appetite of nothing expands over the world. The Prophecy is true. Grayscale has come.
Marsan
#6973 - 2014-10-05 18:24:49 UTC
Preem Palvor wrote:
glad to see that the retards at CCP did everything in their power to make Goons win this game.

No fleet that cannot get outblobbed by Goons
No cap support possible to support lower numbers against a blob
No AoE DD to kill blobs

More numbers = sure win as sov will basically be untouchable now.


So bad CCP SO BAD.

It probably started with a good idea but then your execution failed you ... again.

Off course the big blob alliances are in support of this. Who do you thinouk is going to benefit the most of these changes


Just tell the smaller alliances to go and **** themself 'cause that is what yu just did


Not really. The Goons won't be able to blob every where. If they blob on one side of the map they are committed there and unable defend else where. The more likely result is that the big NS empires will consolidate into more easily defended areas. Then surround themselves with rental empires as a buffer. The outlying areas will be up for grabs by small groups which will be curb stomped every so often by the big NS folks in the name of content.

I really don't see CFC, N3, and PL dominating more than they already do. Nor do I see CFC being better able to take on N3, and PL as a result of these changes. It takes so long to take sov that PL and N3 will be able to move into position before very much happens. PL will likely just cache a wrecking ball fleet, and jump clones in various key locations.

The upside is you'll be able to have a fight in LS, and NPC NS without always being hot drop. Also I look forward to rooks and kings killing caps on gates....

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6974 - 2014-10-05 18:34:16 UTC
Max Deveron wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:

BLOPS shouldn't out-range anything. If someone moves in with 50 blops and 500 bombers in a system and pounds you all day long, you should be able to counterdrop them with caps to grind out the sov and evict them from the system.

EDIT: and JF aren't even combat vessels. To have blops capable of harassing me with 14 mids from empire while I have to go 28 in my JF is not an attrition situation where the defender can reasonably be expected to defend.



Think of Balck ops as in special forces units....they should be able to travel a bit farther, hit a bit harder, an just generally cause mayhem and chaos.

As to the JF....then get some freaking escorts sheesh how hard is it to drum up a few pilots to serve as scouts, interceptors, and some guys willing to scrifice even long enough for the JF to get away?


Use those PoS jump bridge networks where you cyno your JF and sit in the shield while you wait for the cool down timer to run down.
Paulie Bananas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6975 - 2014-10-05 18:37:16 UTC
Hey CCP, how bout fixing things that are actually broken first for a change. POS mechanics would be a great start. Then all the other "REAL" issues this game has been plagued by for years. Should be enough there to keep you busy for at least a year or more in which time you can actually come up with some good ideas (well, probably not) to move this game forward. These new changes are nothing more than a smokescreen to add more convoluted policies to the game while trying to cover up the fact that CCP has completely lost touch with the people who are paying their wages.

I am at a point now where I am going to start having to treat CCP like i would drugs....Just Say No!

Dont know if these changes will cause an mass unsubathon, but CCP seriously needs a wake up call and I hope it happens.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#6976 - 2014-10-05 18:44:13 UTC
Marsan wrote:
PL will likely just cache a wrecking ball fleet, and jump clones in various key locations.


you can't realistically cache the critical ships needed in that fleet - it requires supercarriers and titans to work

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#6977 - 2014-10-05 18:48:34 UTC
Paulie Bananas wrote:
Hey CCP, how bout fixing things that are actually broken first for a change. POS mechanics would be a great start. Then all the other "REAL" issues this game has been plagued by for years. Should be enough there to keep you busy for at least a year or more in which time you can actually come up with some good ideas (well, probably not) to move this game forward. These new changes are nothing more than a smokescreen to add more convoluted policies to the game while trying to cover up the fact that CCP has completely lost touch with the people who are paying their wages.

I am at a point now where I am going to start having to treat CCP like i would drugs....Just Say No!

Dont know if these changes will cause an mass unsubathon, but CCP seriously needs a wake up call and I hope it happens.


Posted by:
A random forum alt who wants to smacktalk CCP without them knowing it was him at a glance
huehuehue your so clever
now nut up or shut up and post with your main
Roll

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#6978 - 2014-10-05 18:49:23 UTC
Andski wrote:
Marsan wrote:
PL will likely just cache a wrecking ball fleet, and jump clones in various key locations.


you can't realistically cache the critical ships needed in that fleet - it requires supercarriers and titans to work


ehhhh
If they wanted it bad enough they could find a way to make it happen
although it may require copious amounts of holding alts and lubrication

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Paulie Bananas
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#6979 - 2014-10-05 18:50:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Paulie Bananas
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Paulie Bananas wrote:
Hey CCP, how bout fixing things that are actually broken first for a change. POS mechanics would be a great start. Then all the other "REAL" issues this game has been plagued by for years. Should be enough there to keep you busy for at least a year or more in which time you can actually come up with some good ideas (well, probably not) to move this game forward. These new changes are nothing more than a smokescreen to add more convoluted policies to the game while trying to cover up the fact that CCP has completely lost touch with the people who are paying their wages.

I am at a point now where I am going to start having to treat CCP like i would drugs....Just Say No!

Dont know if these changes will cause an mass unsubathon, but CCP seriously needs a wake up call and I hope it happens.


Posted by:
A random forum alt who wants to smacktalk CCP without them knowing it was him at a glance
huehuehue your so clever
now nut up or shut up and post with your main
Roll

Alt or main, no matter...truth hurts regardless.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#6980 - 2014-10-05 18:51:46 UTC
Paulie Bananas wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:
Paulie Bananas wrote:
Hey CCP, how bout fixing things that are actually broken first for a change. POS mechanics would be a great start. Then all the other "REAL" issues this game has been plagued by for years. Should be enough there to keep you busy for at least a year or more in which time you can actually come up with some good ideas (well, probably not) to move this game forward. These new changes are nothing more than a smokescreen to add more convoluted policies to the game while trying to cover up the fact that CCP has completely lost touch with the people who are paying their wages.

I am at a point now where I am going to start having to treat CCP like i would drugs....Just Say No!

Dont know if these changes will cause an mass unsubathon, but CCP seriously needs a wake up call and I hope it happens.


Posted by:
A random forum alt who wants to smacktalk CCP without them knowing it was him at a glance
huehuehue your so clever
now nut up or shut up and post with your main
Roll

Alt or main, no matter...truth hurts one way or regardless.


except one carries weight in its words and the other one is glanced over in a heartbeat

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet