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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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davet517
Raata Invicti
#6601 - 2014-10-04 16:40:22 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
[quote=davet517]


Null is much more sparsely populated than highsec or lowsec but has about exactly the same amount of deaths and activity. That means 0.0 players *love* fighting.

So if null bears are so weak at pvp and low sec pirates are so strong you would expect to see the lowsec pirates pwning the null bears constantly.

But you don't see that and the reason is obvious - the lowbears are scared to enter null, that's why they live in low sec.


Well, I've been a high-sec player, and a low-sec pirate, and I ran a 1500 man 0.0 alliance, and I disagree with you. Your chest thumping is cute though.

You don't see low-sec pirates roaming through 0.0, for the most part, because there's nothing in it for them. Put moon mining arrays out in the open, and make stations spew loot like a big pinata when you crush them and you'd probably see a lot more pirates out there. What, exactly, is in it for a pirate to come to 0.0? 50 jumps of folks who have docked up because their scouts saw you coming, and invulnerable loot? Yarr!! I went 50 jumps to kill a ratter? Please.

The number of ship kills on dot-lan doesn't really mean much, friend. There's a difference between friendly skirmishes with a roaming gang and fighting tooth and nail for your space. Few 0.0 dwellers want to do that. Hence the current map.
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#6602 - 2014-10-04 16:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Jenn aSide wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Why are so many of you too naive to see this?

Probably because many are of the opinion that anything to shake up the meta is better than the utter stagnation we have now?


Ah, the same thinking that ANYTHING was better than shooting POSes for SOV that saddled us with Dominion SOV in the 1st place.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. This is why old folks look at you crazy when a younger person says "well, it can't get any worse".

Yes, Yes it can.


This is only true if you have the luxury to wait and do nothing. In this case their hand has been forced by something and time is up, pcu count,or financial, or whatever. This was not even supposed to come now, this patch was about corp roles or something.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6603 - 2014-10-04 16:42:44 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Realistically there's no more or less skill in any area of space, just many people who are so arrogant they think they are better than everyone else.

Didn't some legion or other recently trash one of your much larger battleship fleets supported by caps, like 2 days ago? You had the numbers advantage and the isk advantage and you lost 18 bil worth of stuff. How do you explain that?
Demeter Corinth
Baba Yagas
The Initiative.
#6604 - 2014-10-04 16:44:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Pistonbroke wrote:
I wonder about just how much of this change revolves around "giving them what they have asked for" petulance from CCP, and how much is about trying to combat falling subscription numbers by forcing even more alts on people.

The concept of reducing the ludicrous ability to cross eve in 10minutes flat, I applaud.

The approach, however is so overdone it's like cooking a steak with a flamethrower and napalm, until it's carbonized, when the customer asked for medium rare, but could probably live with medium.

CCP please recognise that this level of negative feedback probably has some rational grounding. Go and rethink, then come back with your homework redone; please don't force us to have 10 accounts just to move the stuff we need from Jita to our bases in null.



Well said. Now I want a steak.



You're asking ccp not to make changes that increase subs and increase revenue. Put your business hat on and explain that.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#6605 - 2014-10-04 16:44:59 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
People with SKILL fly in lowsec
*cough* bullshit *cough*
Lowsec players tell themselves they have skill when they are patting themselves on the back for ganking noobs on their first trip into lowsec. Most lowsec fights start off with a guy screaming "GOT TACKLE" and end with his 20 mates jumping in and annihilating someone. At least in null you know beforehand that there's a blob of us.

Realistically there's no more or less skill in any area of space, just many people who are so arrogant they think they are better than everyone else.


Whats the motivation for a lowsec group?
"Yarrrrrrr"

Whats the motivation for a null bloc monkey?
"We're the BIGGEST and the BEST and look at the MAP" (see also: baltecs inability to talk in the first person)

One embraces gameplay
The other, identity by association.

One rocks and melts faces
The other is tidi and stagnation

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6606 - 2014-10-04 16:49:00 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:


Realistically there's no more or less skill in any area of space, just many people who are so arrogant they think they are better than everyone else.

Didn't some legion or other recently trash one of your much larger battleship fleets supported by caps, like 2 days ago? You had the numbers advantage and the isk advantage and you lost 18 bil worth of stuff. How do you explain that?
**** happens? I vaguely recall being in a battle where we were several trillion up at one point too. I know that if MoA lost 18 bil you'd pretty much fold, but for most of us that's just an operational cost. Nobody wins them all.

It is peculiar though, if lowsec is where all the good PvPers are at, why don't they win the AT every single year?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6607 - 2014-10-04 16:49:12 UTC
davet517 wrote:


The number of ship kills on dot-lan doesn't really mean much, friend. There's a difference between friendly skirmishes with a roaming gang and fighting tooth and nail for your space. Few 0.0 dwellers want to do that. Hence the current map.



Sorry - I thought everyone was whining that all the 3rd partying and force projection somehow diminished space combat? I thought the goal was to have more roaming gang fighting and less pan gallactic sov super clusterbombs going off. However, you seem to agree with me that null is full of roaming gang fights.

So - it sounds like you're in the camp of this change will shake up sov null warfare. Do you really think that reducing ability to project force will in some way create more sov warfare?

I agree, the map will shake up for a few months as large empires give up maintaining space that's logistically crap. But once the dust settles it'll be incredibly boring to try to take space because it'll take too long to get there. You'll see neighbor vs neighbor brawls... but .... if you think there's a blue donut now, why do you think the incentives will change meaningfully towards space combat if you can't reasonably expand your control further than a single region? Once you've captured the region, and your neighbor has their region, you're done.

Unless you think somehow lowsec alliances will somehow capture sov and start changing the donut shape ... oh wait, what alliance am I in again?
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6608 - 2014-10-04 16:50:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
People with SKILL fly in lowsec
*cough* bullshit *cough*
Lowsec players tell themselves they have skill when they are patting themselves on the back for ganking noobs on their first trip into lowsec. Most lowsec fights start off with a guy screaming "GOT TACKLE" and end with his 20 mates jumping in and annihilating someone. At least in null you know beforehand that there's a blob of us.

Realistically there's no more or less skill in any area of space, just many people who are so arrogant they think they are better than everyone else.


Whats the motivation for a lowsec group?
"Yarrrrrrr"

Whats the motivation for a null bloc monkey?
"We're the BIGGEST and the BEST and look at the MAP" (see also: baltecs inability to talk in the first person)

One embraces gameplay
The other, identity by association.

One rocks and melts faces
The other is tidi and stagnation
HAHAHAHHA. Yeah, I've never heard "Lowsec pilots R DA BEST" before. Seriously guy have you played EVE before?

And as with my previous post, how come lowsec players don't consistently win AT?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#6609 - 2014-10-04 16:51:07 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Jobbered wrote:
It is amusing watching pdople talk of stagnation. This is going to force more stagnation on the game. Anyone remember a little thing called world war one. Trench warfare ring a bell? This will force everyone to dig in where they are and you will have large swaths of no mans land between heavily defended areas. This was only broken by mobiliy. Mobility is now being taken away. They say those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. We are going to have front row seats.......


WORLD WAR ONE SHEEPLE!!!!

This thread just keeps it coming Lol


Yea, their using that mobility to, what, oh yea, go to Catch and fight easy targets. PL is brave enough to hotdrop a couple of cruisers in low though. That's pretty brave of them.

Poor little nullsec nancy's. The sheep will need to be herded into smaller areas.
Operative X10-4
Doomheim
#6610 - 2014-10-04 16:51:42 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
Operative X10-4 wrote:
Best change ever, just do it!
I cant wait to pick up a freighter full and jump gates in 0.0 with armed escort... I can see some crazy logistics being doing, like 10-20 freighters jumping gate to gate with armed squads protecting them, and fights happening around those supplies.


This actually used to be what happened before JF were introduced. Back before JF were introduced people *still* didn't locally produce in null. But they did long boring freighter escorts as a CTA constantly. It was horribly boring and caused null to be a empty wasteland of boredom.

Now realize they're not removing JF from the game, they're just making it harder to reach distant systems. So why would people supplying a market decide to take the most risky possible route? Wouldn't the sov holders just move their base of operations to the most easily accessible logistically? Isn't that simpler than creating a whole home grown industry or flying T1 freighters through gates?

Right now home systems are picked for their military ability to project or proximity to tasty PVE. That calculus doesn't include that much consideration for logistics. The balance of the equation will change slightly, so you'll see more concentration near highsec and much much less dispersion throughout nullsec regions. You'll see calcified and entrenched home systems and empty regions.


1 - I know that it happened before, People what to see it again. Due to the 0.0 sov changes more people are willing to move and live in 0.0 since after changes the possibility to conquer a small place to live even if you are not big as an corp or alliance seens to be possible, specially if people cant project their power in any place of eve in just 1 minute with a cyno chain. Maybe this time for once null will not be completely empty and boring as ****.

2 - So why logistic players are crying so much? Tbh they should remove JF from the game at all.

3 - If so the proximity to high sec at least will bring more possibility for small fights to happen

I see a good oportunity for industry focused characters as well.

FOREVER PIRATE 07 FLY DANGEROUSLY.
Operative X10-4
Doomheim
#6611 - 2014-10-04 16:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Operative X10-4
double post

FOREVER PIRATE 07 FLY DANGEROUSLY.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#6612 - 2014-10-04 16:52:57 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
People with SKILL fly in lowsec
*cough* bullshit *cough*
Lowsec players tell themselves they have skill when they are patting themselves on the back for ganking noobs on their first trip into lowsec. Most lowsec fights start off with a guy screaming "GOT TACKLE" and end with his 20 mates jumping in and annihilating someone. At least in null you know beforehand that there's a blob of us.

Realistically there's no more or less skill in any area of space, just many people who are so arrogant they think they are better than everyone else.


Whats the motivation for a lowsec group?
"Yarrrrrrr"

Whats the motivation for a null bloc monkey?
"We're the BIGGEST and the BEST and look at the MAP" (see also: baltecs inability to talk in the first person)

One embraces gameplay
The other, identity by association.

One rocks and melts faces
The other is tidi and stagnation
HAHAHAHHA. Yeah, I've never heard "Lowsec pilots R DA BEST" before. Seriously guy have you played EVE before?

And as with my previous post, how come lowsec players don't consistently win AT?


Yea, cause F1 monkeys have all the skilz, oh wait, you don't even fit your own ships.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6613 - 2014-10-04 16:53:27 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:

Yea, their using that mobility to, what, oh yea, go to Catch and fight easy targets. PL is brave enough to hotdrop a couple of cruisers in low though. That's pretty brave of them.


Hey wait I resemble that comment!
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#6614 - 2014-10-04 16:53:50 UTC
Operative X10-4 wrote:
Best change ever, just do it!
I cant wait to pick up a freighter full and jump gates in 0.0 with armed escort... I can see some crazy logistics being doing, like 10-20 freighters jumping gate to gate with armed squads protecting them, and fights happening around those supplies.


i'm sorry to dissapoint you but that's not what a freighter op is; i've done some of those in my time, and i can tell yopu that a freighter escort op is one of the most boring ops that can be in eve;
by definition, a succesfull freighter op, it's an op where NOTHING happens; you meet with the freighter at the low sec/nul entry point, take the freighter, escort him to your destination; you are not there for fights, you are there to get the freighter home in one piece; that means that even there are 10 roaming gangs in the area you will do nothing about them if they don't try to stop you; you just look at them and go with that slow warping whale;
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6615 - 2014-10-04 16:53:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:


Realistically there's no more or less skill in any area of space, just many people who are so arrogant they think they are better than everyone else.

Didn't some legion or other recently trash one of your much larger battleship fleets supported by caps, like 2 days ago? You had the numbers advantage and the isk advantage and you lost 18 bil worth of stuff. How do you explain that?
**** happens? I vaguely recall being in a battle where we were several trillion up at one point too. I know that if MoA lost 18 bil you'd pretty much fold, but for most of us that's just an operational cost. Nobody wins them all.

It is peculiar though, if lowsec is where all the good PvPers are at, why don't they win the AT every single year?

Oh I'm not saying lowsec is the home of all skill in eve. Rather, I'm saying there are definite skill differences of individual pilots and fcs between various groups. And that plays out every year in the AT with certain groups being clear favorites over others.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#6616 - 2014-10-04 16:55:50 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Yea, cause F1 monkeys have all the skilz, oh wait, you don't even fit your own ships.
I clearly didn't say we do have all the skills. No section of space has an inherently more skilled player base than any other, even if lowsec pilots do like to pretend the are the pinnacle of PvP skill. And again, if they are so skilled, why do they not win AT every single year? They can;t blame this on on blobbing like they blame everything else.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#6617 - 2014-10-04 16:55:59 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:
Eigenvalue wrote:
That means 0.0 players *love* fighting.

All the "nullbears" and other butthurt that goes on is coming from a bunch of lowsec pirates who are scared of bubbles,

But you don't see that and the reason is obvious - the lowbears are scared to enter null, that's why they live in low sec.


Hahahahahaha

*breathe*

Ahahahahahah

People with SKILL fly in lowsec
F1 monkeys fly in null

There is bleedover and exceptions between the two, but my 10+ years in both have shown that to be fairly accurate statement.

Tjese changes may very well make null more attractive to those skilled that have no desire for being in a 250 man gang neccesitating participation.


When you jump into a wormhole, you can pretty much guarantee someone that you don't know is there is out to get you.

When you jump into low sec, you can pretty much guarantee someone that you know is there is out to get you.

When you jump into null sec, you can pretty much guarantee that someone you can see is telling someone else you can't see that they need capital support because no one can rat anymore.
Operative X10-4
Doomheim
#6618 - 2014-10-04 16:56:08 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Operative X10-4 wrote:
Best change ever, just do it!
I cant wait to pick up a freighter full and jump gates in 0.0 with armed escort... I can see some crazy logistics being doing, like 10-20 freighters jumping gate to gate with armed squads protecting them, and fights happening around those supplies.


i'm sorry to dissapoint you but that's not what a freighter op is; i've done some of those in my time, and i can tell yopu that a freighter escort op is one of the most boring ops that can be in eve;
by definition, a succesfull freighter op, it's an op where NOTHING happens; you meet with the freighter at the low sec/nul entry point, take the freighter, escort him to your destination; you are not there for fights, you are there to get the freighter home in one piece; that means that even there are 10 roaming gangs in the area you will do nothing about them if they don't try to stop you; you just look at them and go with that slow warping whale;


No one in a logistic is on it for the fight, no alliance would be stupid to do something like that for the fight... But the possibility have to be there no matter if you like it or not.

FOREVER PIRATE 07 FLY DANGEROUSLY.
Arjo Lauzen
Droneland Investment Group
Droneland Prosperity Initiative
#6619 - 2014-10-04 16:56:59 UTC
A JF must be able to jump to NPC Null without having to resort to wormholes or Sov Null sec, otherwise these areas will become empty wastelands instead of being areas to harass Sovereign holders.

Nerfs to combat capitals might help smaller alliances but the nerf to JF make things even harder for the little guy.
SanDooD
Perkone
Caldari State
#6620 - 2014-10-04 16:57:29 UTC
Demeter Corinth wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Pistonbroke wrote:
I wonder about just how much of this change revolves around "giving them what they have asked for" petulance from CCP, and how much is about trying to combat falling subscription numbers by forcing even more alts on people.

The concept of reducing the ludicrous ability to cross eve in 10minutes flat, I applaud.

The approach, however is so overdone it's like cooking a steak with a flamethrower and napalm, until it's carbonized, when the customer asked for medium rare, but could probably live with medium.

CCP please recognise that this level of negative feedback probably has some rational grounding. Go and rethink, then come back with your homework redone; please don't force us to have 10 accounts just to move the stuff we need from Jita to our bases in null.



Well said. Now I want a steak.



You're asking ccp not to make changes that increase subs and increase revenue. Put your business hat on and explain that.


But it won't. That's the problem. Revenue should come from new subscriptions, sales of PLEX, etc. It shouldn't come from extortion. Forcing capital pilots to have 28-30 alts will not net them new revenue, because for every new cyno/capital jumper account they get, they will lose an existing player probably. If you think some of the old players won't quit over this, think again.

How many new accounts did they get after B-R battle? How many of those stayed active and are patient enough to wait to get into titan. Do you think these people started playing EVE because they think it's the best MMO out there? They want to be part of the fights like that one. Here comes CCP Nullsec Team to crush their dreams.

My Business Hat tells me that I should keep my existing customers first before I try to get new ones, and extorting more money from my existing customers is not a good customer relationship.