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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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remus wulf
From Our Cold Dead Hands
#5761 - 2014-10-03 17:33:35 UTC
The major powers in this game have the manpower and capability to get around these changes to jump drive travel so the ONLY people CCP is hurting are the smaller fish at the bottom of the food chain.
Emphias Ramillion
The Order Of Asgard
Lord of Worlds Alliance
#5762 - 2014-10-03 17:33:50 UTC
We can curse here right? *looks around* yaknow i'll jus get auto sensored.

Let em start by asking this.
WHAT THE ACTUAL **** CCP?!

This is a terrible idea. Out of all these changes, let me start with the thing that aggravates me most: the max after skills 5LY jump range.

What are you thinking?

Setting the max jump range AFTER SKILLS to 5LY plus the added fatigue and jump timers will make trips across space to new areas and new homes take hours and even days!

MATTER OF FACT I jus moved from Amarr low sec to my new home in nully thats 51LY from my departing station. With the time it takes to recover my capacitor after each jump and also the time to coordinate cynos in hard to reach places I made my 4 jumps in about 1.5 hours. If i were to take on such a long trip after this terrible list of ideas it could have taken me days or even weeks if im reading this stuff right.

Also making capitals able to use the gates ain't that bad of an idea, but coupled with the above bullshit you guys are proposing, it is basically saying the following:

"Hey guys, jumping across space is no longer a easy thing to do so here use the gate adn jump right into a bubble and get ****** by the camp on the other side."

All classes of capital ships are notorious for being
1. SLOW TO ALIGN
2. SLOW TO JUMP
3. SLOW TO FUCKIN GO ANYWHERE! (you already have to have someoen fly somewhere to light a cyno for you WHICH TAKES TIME ALSO)

So why on earth would you take something thats slow and make it even slower....?

you say:
"We are going to allow capital ships to use gates in lowsec/nullsec, and we are aiming to make gate-to-gate travel take less time than jump travel over distances of more than ~20 LY. We've run simulations for capital ships travelling between arbitrary pairs of systems, and settled on the target movement speed of no less than 3 minutes per lightyear for travel over 20 LY."

just a note......I MADE A 51LY TRIP IN 1.5HRS(~90MIN).....YOUR SIMULATION WOULD HAVE TAKEN ME 150 MINUTES GIVEN THAT I DONT GET BLOWN TO BITS

Earlier, around page 6, someone brought up how they use caps to move corp assets. This is my main use for them, my last move mentioned above was my own assets and i was carrying a fully faction fit archon plus deadspace fit ships and shiny things.
Overall about 15bil in ****. Traveling the distance i did was a risk yes, but it was 4 jumps to my target......it wouldve been 10+ jumps and much more time to get pointed and lose everything if you guys stuff was already ingame.

My kind of situation and trip isn't rare by the way it happens multiple times a day.

Personally i see a huge chunk of your player base leaving if you guys dont REVI
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5763 - 2014-10-03 17:33:54 UTC
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Yuri Thorpe wrote:
Honestly for blops, just let them be exempt from the changes, also buff the HP by 10% so they might have a little more staying power. Scan res buffs are welcome as well :D



If there is no way for a BLOP BS to become a jump freighter substitute then I totally for this. Anything to promote/preserve any form of PVP is a go in my book.

(JF.... not so much)

At worst they bridge blockade runners, they hold like 10k cargo :P

Little over 13k fully cargo fit, not including containers. So like 17k all told.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5764 - 2014-10-03 17:34:02 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Having read all 288 pages of this thread, I can assure you that the overwhelming response from the Goons and other powerblocs (excepting perhaps PL) has been extremely negative, with many threatening to quit, move to empire etc....
Now obviously it could be that the people who are not so angry choose not to comment, but the negativity is mainly from the big sov holders, not the "pubbies," and in my view the anger is misplaced.

I question the accuracy of your assessment, but whatever, if some individual goon not high up on the totem pole decide to go all hurr durr, then that's up to them. The general mood in our camp is that while some of the changes does suck compared to today, it will be a net boon for us because it'll suck more for everyone else.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5765 - 2014-10-03 17:35:45 UTC
SFM Hobb3s wrote:
Switchblade Soliloquy Asheki wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
It looks like everyone rage quitting are CFC, N3 and PL.


Id figure to see more Black Legion since they are fanboys of the hotdrop.



Actually we're pretty mixed about it. But we've always been a group for adapting and surviving.
The only difference is our deployments will be longer, more localized, and we will actually get stuff done because it will be unrealistic and unlikely we'll be seeing a two-hundred archon blob there to stop us (enemy might be lucky to defend ONE location with these, good luck when you get attacked in several places)



Props to Greyscale...still hoping logistics gets a break here, and maybe blops too, but definitely on the right track.


Yeah,

I could deal with it if they didn't cripple logistics. I also have a problem with all you folks that earned your areas and developed them, which cost a lot of isk, to have CCP try to redistribute the wealth. It will not happen of course and they would know that if they were in the trenches with the rest of us. Maybe they just need to be part of a small alliance or corporation trying to make a living out here. Whatever though when the sub runs out no reason to keep rolling ill have fun till then. Hell, maybe they will fix a few things.
Andrabella
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#5766 - 2014-10-03 17:36:22 UTC
Niobea Aenir wrote:
Why I think this update is fail - ignoring the content


Before deploying updates like this, the whole concept (including the basic information about planned changes) should have been discussed with CSM.

Then this concept should be presented on forums and then discussed with players to update some minor things before even thinking about releasing the first update.

What I'm really afraid of - I don't think even CCP has this concept ready and they will just release updates in a way "well, it will maybe work, maybe not, who cares.... in worst scenario we will balance it somehow in the next update with nerfing sth else".

The content of this update and how I think it will/won't affect live in the deep 0.0


The projection of force
I agree it is something which needs to be solved. But in many ways this was probably not the best idea. I hear a lot of voices screaming:


  • CFC/PL/{whatever big enough} tears, cry more! etc
  • This has to be awesome, if so many nullsec coalitions are so pissed! We will kill them all and take their space.


Well, at least the last point - that's not going to happen. Why? A lot of ppl probably don't realize this is boosting the defending site even more. Now has the defender the upper hand, after this release.. a lot of null sec regions will turn into fortresses extremely hard to conquer...

Because of the nerf of the jump range, it will be much easier to get defending cap fleets to the battle. While the attackers will need to travel large distance in most of the cases.

The attacking side will need much more effort to bring their fleet into the fight. They will probably need to stage closer exposing themselves to the defending site, which can annoy them more conveniently their staging system:

Example: CFC is now under attack. Attackers are staged in Tartoken. They can pick time when to bridge to our territories and they are safe at Tartoken, because it is low sec, it is quite far away and it would be extremely boring to camp nearby system and it would take significant effort to do that.

After the update, they will need to go closer to get to our home system quickly enough to not give us time to do the large formup preventing them to do their job. And then they will need to travel by gates in our territory WO ability to hit us instantly where it hurts.

... but... but ... It will be harder to keep your large empires running!
Yes, this is true. The logistics is already boring... because we need to transfer huge amounts of stuff. But we will do it, it will be just "Extremely annoying 101". Probably more JF alts will be required -> more accounts. It could be CCPs intention to boost their income from subscription fees.

But your capitals will be limited considering the distance they can jump!
Yes, it is again true. But there are many options for nullsec coalitions with huge income to bypass that simply by creating caches of ships... more jump clones... etc. In fact, this update is significantly increasing their importance. We don't need to be afraid of getting hotdropped so we can safely deploy caps to the fights while having an eternity to get them safe if needed - before the enemy cap fleet will get even half the way to us.

Projection of force - Conclusion

I think that this change will only help to preserve the current status quo. Large coalitions won't attack themselves in the full scale war because the attacking side would risk losing its regions when staged on the other end of the map - or they will need much more effort to keep them safe while being staged.

The small guys will be just beaten to death when trying to attack.

Capital pilots and supercapital pilots

It takes really a long time to train character to fly them effectively, so a lot of guys will be mad about it. Some SP reassignment after all planned changes will be announced would be probably handy. So this pilots would have an option to get rid of their cap skills and use them as they wish. - - It would be fair if presenting so significant nerf.

We can expect even more cap and supcap usage for the everyday matters like ratting, plexing etc. The fear of being hotdropped will be really lowered - for the coalitions with the large territories. The small guy will be here beaten again. While holding only small space next to someones borders you will be likely hotdropped while all the ratting supers/caps in the deep blue territories will be near to completely safe.

JF nerf - aka produce your stuff locally

I really agree with intention behind this change. I really support manufacturing things locally and not transporting them from jita making milk runs - and this will get really harder, more time consuming -> discouraging ppl to do it.

Yes! But please first think about providing us with resources so we can do it WO need to import them from jita.

Small guys in 0.0...


A lot of small groups living in null sec will be unable to supply their towers or ppl because of the JF (and carrier) 5LY jump range. In many cases they will need to go through enemy territories and even worse - in some cases through territories held by one of the large coalitions, making themselves a juicy target to kill. Again, the small guy takes one for the team. Large coalitions can provide easily 100+ protection fleets for the milk runs, small guy can't.

How to help them:
It could be interesting to provide new rigs allowing carriers jump to original distances WO fatigue, but with really significant impact in the carrier abilities -> tiny dps, significantly lowered HP, no remote reps, not removable for at least 48hours - it will prevent to project force and carriers have too small cargo for the needs of large coalitions.


sign
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5767 - 2014-10-03 17:37:44 UTC
Princess Nexxala wrote:
Hey everyone, it's ragequitoclock...


Its not rage quit, its logic quit. Why go backwards on a boring mechanic like logistics. No thank you and believe me sir/mam I am not the only one that this will break.
Alice LaMarke
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5768 - 2014-10-03 17:39:00 UTC
HarlyQ wrote:
So I was looking at traveling to fanfest but then flight fatigue came into play so now it takes me three weeks to get their VIA this route https://i.imgur.com/y1hE054.jpg

Take a wormhole, scrub.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5769 - 2014-10-03 17:39:10 UTC
smokeydapot wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:


I also agree that null needs attention but not at the cost of the small guys trying to move to null they are so full of wonder until they are beaten back to high sec with whatever new toys we use. It's a numbers game and sad truth is the null blocks have the numbers the little guys by definition don't have this and will always suffer more so with this....





It's EVE though - punishing or axing emergent content created BY PLAYERS and not CCP, because of high SP veteran characters having gotten there first - that's also wrong.

I think players that understand the game are in a far better position to advise and consent via the CSM, rather than a 'ah this looks good... now lets go grab a beer!' and OP-Crush-It-With-A-Viking-Hammer development style.


Again, LONG LIVE THE OLD DEVS! I miss 'em!!!


I miss soundwave you can hate me if you want but I do.

Back to topic before ISD " nothing to see here move along "

I can't wait for all the tears to drench the forum when PL, goons or who ever decide to put 100 titans on a gate perma running smartbombs just because....

Who knows they may start small first with 500 carriers bwahahaha

The final solution


Oh hell ya - Titan Gate Bomb-bash

Then next you know to fix THAT Yar! Captian Neckbeard will tell us that CONCORD is now in Low Sec to help stop the baddie Titans smartbombing your low sec entry gate!!

I wonder if Greyscale gave the same ambiguous overview to Hilmar that he gave to the CSM? Think he even knows about this? I mean like really knows about it??

OMG dude he could be dead in a janitors closet somewhere.... HOLY @#$@!! SOMEONE CALL THE REYKIVIK POLICE DEPARTMENT OR INTERPOLE OR THE ******* UN!!!

HILMAR NEEDS US!!!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
#5770 - 2014-10-03 17:40:35 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:


I also agree that null needs attention but not at the cost of the small guys trying to move to null they are so full of wonder until they are beaten back to high sec with whatever new toys we use. It's a numbers game and sad truth is the null blocks have the numbers the little guys by definition don't have this and will always suffer more so with this....





It's EVE though - punishing or axing emergent content created BY PLAYERS and not CCP, because of high SP veteran characters having gotten there first - that's also wrong.

I think players that understand the game are in a far better position to advise and consent via the CSM, rather than a 'ah this looks good... now lets go grab a beer!' and OP-Crush-It-With-A-Viking-Hammer development style.


Again, LONG LIVE THE OLD DEVS! I miss 'em!!!


I miss soundwave you can hate me if you want but I do.

Back to topic before ISD " nothing to see here move along "

I can't wait for all the tears to drench the forum when PL, goons or who ever decide to put 100 titans on a gate perma running smartbombs just because....

Who knows they may start small first with 500 carriers bwahahaha

The final solution


Oh hell ya - Titan Gate Bomb-bash

Then next you know to fix THAT Yar! Captian Neckbeard will tell us that CONCORD is now in Low Sec to help stop the baddie Titans smartbombing your low sec entry gate!!

I wonder if Greyscale gave the same ambiguous overview to Hilmar that he gave to the CSM? Think he even knows about this? I mean like really knows about it??

OMG dude he could be dead in a janitors closet somewhere.... HOLY @#$@!! SOMEONE CALL THE REYKIVIK POLICE DEPARTMENT OR INTERPOLE OR THE ******* UN!!!

HILMAR NEEDS US!!!

Heres a tinfoil hat i think you need it to help protect your brain from the aliens sending you signals.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5771 - 2014-10-03 17:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
remus wulf wrote:
The major powers in this game have the manpower and capability to get around these changes to jump drive travel so the ONLY people CCP is hurting are the smaller fish at the bottom of the food chain.


right... and how many alts and archons do you think you will need to have the same coverage as today?

keep in mind that ccp said they are going to do a balance of the dominion sov mechanics before years end so i highly down CFC or PL or NC. will be able to hold on to the renter space by 2015

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5772 - 2014-10-03 17:43:11 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:


I also agree that null needs attention but not at the cost of the small guys trying to move to null they are so full of wonder until they are beaten back to high sec with whatever new toys we use. It's a numbers game and sad truth is the null blocks have the numbers the little guys by definition don't have this and will always suffer more so with this....





It's EVE though - punishing or axing emergent content created BY PLAYERS and not CCP, because of high SP veteran characters having gotten there first - that's also wrong.

I think players that understand the game are in a far better position to advise and consent via the CSM, rather than a 'ah this looks good... now lets go grab a beer!' and OP-Crush-It-With-A-Viking-Hammer development style.


Again, LONG LIVE THE OLD DEVS! I miss 'em!!!


I miss soundwave you can hate me if you want but I do.

Back to topic before ISD " nothing to see here move along "

I can't wait for all the tears to drench the forum when PL, goons or who ever decide to put 100 titans on a gate perma running smartbombs just because....

Who knows they may start small first with 500 carriers bwahahaha

The final solution


Oh hell ya - Titan Gate Bomb-bash

Then next you know to fix THAT Yar! Captian Neckbeard will tell us that CONCORD is now in Low Sec to help stop the baddie Titans smartbombing your low sec entry gate!!

I wonder if Greyscale gave the same ambiguous overview to Hilmar that he gave to the CSM? Think he even knows about this? I mean like really knows about it??

OMG dude he could be dead in a janitors closet somewhere.... HOLY @#$@!! SOMEONE CALL THE REYKIVIK POLICE DEPARTMENT OR INTERPOLE OR THE ******* UN!!!

HILMAR NEEDS US!!!


Too much caffine friend.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5773 - 2014-10-03 17:45:32 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
remus wulf wrote:
The major powers in this game have the manpower and capability to get around these changes to jump drive travel so the ONLY people CCP is hurting are the smaller fish at the bottom of the food chain.


right... and how many alts and archons do you think you will need to have the same coverage as today?

keep in mind that ccp said they are going to do a balance of the dominion sov mechanics before years end so i highly down CFC or PL or NC. will be able to hold on to the renter space by 2015


You mistake Goons for N3/PL, as we're not known for projecting power in Archons.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5774 - 2014-10-03 17:45:41 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
remus wulf wrote:
The major powers in this game have the manpower and capability to get around these changes to jump drive travel so the ONLY people CCP is hurting are the smaller fish at the bottom of the food chain.


right... and how many alts and archons do you think you will need to have the same coverage as today?

keep in mind that ccp said they are going to do a balance of the dominion sov mechanics before years end so i highly down CFC or PL or NC. will be able to hold on to the renter space by 2015


Never underestimate the power of large groups doing stupid things Lol
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#5775 - 2014-10-03 17:47:32 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:


Oh hell ya - Titan Gate Bomb-bash

Then next you know to fix THAT Yar! Captian Neckbeard will tell us that CONCORD is now in Low Sec to help stop the baddie Titans smartbombing your low sec entry gate!!

I wonder if Greyscale gave the same ambiguous overview to Hilmar that he gave to the CSM? Think he even knows about this? I mean like really knows about it??

OMG dude he could be dead in a janitors closet somewhere.... HOLY @#$@!! SOMEONE CALL THE REYKIVIK POLICE DEPARTMENT OR INTERPOLE OR THE ******* UN!!!

HILMAR NEEDS US!!!


You could keep that camp going forever calling in the odd logistics now and then.

Low sec DD no thanks I've already worked with that.

Time to focus on bubble production these things are guna sell better than eve subs.

All the null blocks need to get together into one massive alliance and kill eve forever this poor old dog has had its day and the devs are the fleas.

Prepares for an old yell'a moment *SOB*

HILMAR I'M ON MY WAY BUT THIS COOLDOWN IS KILLING ME SEE YOU IN 2099
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5776 - 2014-10-03 17:48:12 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
remus wulf wrote:
The major powers in this game have the manpower and capability to get around these changes to jump drive travel so the ONLY people CCP is hurting are the smaller fish at the bottom of the food chain.


right... and how many alts and archons do you think you will need to have the same coverage as today?

keep in mind that ccp said they are going to do a balance of the dominion sov mechanics before years end so i highly down CFC or PL or NC. will be able to hold on to the renter space by 2015


You mistake Goons for N3/PL, as we're not known for projecting power in Archons.


no but you do use boots for defence... so yeah... have fun with that.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5777 - 2014-10-03 17:48:45 UTC
No rly -- HILMAR IS IN TROUBLE

If you don't believe me - just look at who is in charge of the Null Sec working group!

Yar! Captain Neckbeard might actually be.....


Yar! PIRATE Neckbeard!!


Dun dun dunnnnnnnn....!!! O.o

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#5778 - 2014-10-03 17:49:10 UTC
HarlyQ wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:


I also agree that null needs attention but not at the cost of the small guys trying to move to null they are so full of wonder until they are beaten back to high sec with whatever new toys we use. It's a numbers game and sad truth is the null blocks have the numbers the little guys by definition don't have this and will always suffer more so with this....





It's EVE though - punishing or axing emergent content created BY PLAYERS and not CCP, because of high SP veteran characters having gotten there first - that's also wrong.

I think players that understand the game are in a far better position to advise and consent via the CSM, rather than a 'ah this looks good... now lets go grab a beer!' and OP-Crush-It-With-A-Viking-Hammer development style.


Again, LONG LIVE THE OLD DEVS! I miss 'em!!!


I miss soundwave you can hate me if you want but I do.

Back to topic before ISD " nothing to see here move along "

I can't wait for all the tears to drench the forum when PL, goons or who ever decide to put 100 titans on a gate perma running smartbombs just because....

Who knows they may start small first with 500 carriers bwahahaha

The final solution


Oh hell ya - Titan Gate Bomb-bash

Then next you know to fix THAT Yar! Captian Neckbeard will tell us that CONCORD is now in Low Sec to help stop the baddie Titans smartbombing your low sec entry gate!!

I wonder if Greyscale gave the same ambiguous overview to Hilmar that he gave to the CSM? Think he even knows about this? I mean like really knows about it??

OMG dude he could be dead in a janitors closet somewhere.... HOLY @#$@!! SOMEONE CALL THE REYKIVIK POLICE DEPARTMENT OR INTERPOLE OR THE ******* UN!!!

HILMAR NEEDS US!!!

Heres a tinfoil hat i think you need it to help protect your brain from the aliens sending you signals.


No hat required you can draw a direct correlation between R&K videos and " new features ".
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5779 - 2014-10-03 17:49:54 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
remus wulf wrote:
The major powers in this game have the manpower and capability to get around these changes to jump drive travel so the ONLY people CCP is hurting are the smaller fish at the bottom of the food chain.


right... and how many alts and archons do you think you will need to have the same coverage as today?

keep in mind that ccp said they are going to do a balance of the dominion sov mechanics before years end so i highly down CFC or PL or NC. will be able to hold on to the renter space by 2015


You mistake Goons for N3/PL, as we're not known for projecting power in Archons.


no but you do use boots for defence... so yeah... have fun with that.

Exclusively? Interesting.
Niobea Aenir
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5780 - 2014-10-03 17:51:38 UTC
Demeter Corinth wrote:
It's interesting that a large corporation is stating (in the painfully dry dissertation quoted below) 'This will make us even stronger, therefore I'm in complete disagreement.' The truth is that this will shatter the power blocs that exist. If there is only one attack, on one front, at one time, then yes caches of ships will work as an effective defense.

But multiple attacks, on all fronts, all of the time, and well, a fleet can't be everywhere at once. FCs are not a dime a dozen, and competent FCs will be slim pickens for multiple theaters of war. Smaller fleets, inexperienced FCs, different enemies on all sides and there is a word for that...surrounded.

Small corps and alliances WILL be able to carve out a segment of null as their own, and battles like Akashi (or whatever the system was) will be replaced by small, constant, skirmish warfare, with the occasional constellation grab. Blue donut, enjoy the reign while it lasts.

-D


Your statement 'This will make us even stronger, therefore I'm in complete disagreement.' is wrong.

I agree with the JF changes, only encouraging CCP to provide resources to finish their intention about not importing stuff. Also the cost and time of running large empire will increase, I like that.

I agree with the projection of force limitations, because I want more crowded nullsec with more fights, possibly some trusec changes would be great to make more systems valuable, not forcing coalitions to hold large territories to be able to pay the SRP and caps+. Adding more tasty moons would also help.

I just don't think this update will solve it and I'd like to see the whole concept, not one devblog -> it is impossible to determine how the final picture will look like.

And even more: I want us to have smaller territories with more occupied system. I want smaller alliances get to null sec. It will create more enjoyable content. If the whole CFC will have only a few regions, I'd be happy. More crowded systems - now we really use like 1/6 of the region, the rest of it is just wasteland. But a lot of changes need to be done when we will get there.