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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5741 - 2014-10-03 17:21:10 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
I really think the solution to increasing density in 0.0 is by seeding "freeport NPC outposts" all over 0.0 space.

Nullbears can make these all on their own already. Offline any cyno jammers, unrestrict docking rights, charge no docking fees, not camp the routes in and out.

None of them will, and prior efforts to do this got canned when someone found out they were funneling cash to "the other side".

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5742 - 2014-10-03 17:21:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord TGR
Veers Belvar wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

I seem to remember that being from mostly pubbies, but whatevs.


See here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=376666&p=269

I assume Goonwaffe is not yet a pubbie? Also look at the very 1st page of this thread!

Quoting Alp Khan (of Goonwaffe!)

"Industrialists and logisticians are more likely to just relocate to empire than having to deal with the nightmare you seem to be having a wet dream about. Or worse, they'll just quit playing.

You are exceptionally naive if you seriously think that forcing logistics to face risk even from a small gang is going to make them smile and force them into offering multi billion haulers as sacrificial lamb for you. Scarcity of materials will become a reality. If not that, logisticians will start pushing their losses onto the end consumer. These will all negatively impact everybody's ability to attain T2 goods, which are consumed EVERYWHERE.

Your overtly simplistic expectations are adorable, but unrealistic. Economics, production and logistics do not work like that."

If you look you'll also find me saying that I think nullsec isn't fully independent enough for the JF nerf, but I'm pretty certain that we're well organized enough that it really doesn't matter all that much.

Also, notice how I said "from mostly pubbies", not "just from pubbies". But I'm sure you'll see only the ones you want to see, i.e. GSF posts, and ignore everything else.

Edit: Also, The Slayer saying "can't engage in combat for a MONTH" just indicates that he's seeing "fatigue" and thinking "cooldown". He should be saying "3 days, and even then only if you've been exceptionally dumb".
Daniel Westelius
Shadow State
Goonswarm Federation
#5743 - 2014-10-03 17:22:14 UTC
CCP Greyscale, if you are trying to make this game difficult, you are not accomplishing it. You are making it boring and tedious. Having to wait in between jumps is not difficult, it is only time consuming.
The fact that you can accumulate 30 days of fatigue and have had to put a hard cap on it points to a flaw in your concept.
As far as I know, CCP is not allowed to dabble in nullsec with their accounts. If so, it makes it all the more imperative for you to listen to the nullsec player base before introducing such hard handed changes, at the very least the CSM. The fact that you only gave the CSM a day to look over the changes before posting your dev blog is an issue within itself.
This will not create content.
Sov is worthless as it is, people will just stay in the comfort of their space. No one in their right mind will deploy and leave their sov vulnureable. All the established powers will stay where they are, fattening up their wallets. Pirates and emerging alliances will not be able to displace these powers.
I said it once, I will say it again. There are a million ways to nerf power projection and capitals, and this is one of the worst ways.
You want content and more PvP ? Then you don't hamper the logistics aspect of the game. By making it more time consuming to import ships and reship you are guaranteeing less fights. And good luck getting fights in regions that are over 20-30 LY away from a major high-sec trade hub. The supply chain will be so tedious no one will bother going that far.
You are killing your golden goose, or at least turning it into a bronze goose.
Every successful game is based on fun and time consumption.
WoW, LoL, etc... They may be time consuming, but there is always something to do. They keep the player engaged. With your concept, the player is not engaged.
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5744 - 2014-10-03 17:23:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Tauren Tom wrote:
To add to the bandwagon unsubbing here... carrier/dread pilot for a couple years now... Already stripping down all my caps and getting ready to resell in null. Check your local markets. And yea, unsubbed 8 of 9 accounts. I'll unsub this one once I get done selling all my now useless caps.

Because no one wants to sit there staring at the fatigue bar, unable to defend what was established, or even change alliances and bring your key selling factor/merc support platform through space when you will be forever going "Why are we only going 25mph in a 65mph?"

Also, did anyone even think of how badly you've now screwed over mercs?


Nah bro youz got to unsubb nao!

Reason being, you'll still have access to your account for the time you paid up to to sell your stuff, but CCP will get the message TODAY on the number of unsubbs after this theoyrcraft trainwreck was announced.

Seriously if you want to send a loud and clear message - unsubb today!

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#5745 - 2014-10-03 17:24:32 UTC
Toriessian wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

We wake up the day after tomorrow. That's the moral of the story. We wake up. It's not over. The world doesn't end. We just keep going w/out football. A lot of folks really care about and love football, but we can all live without it.

It's the same w/ null power blocks. At the end of the day we don't need them to play eve. If they all instantly vanish there is still a good (many would argue better) game left behind.


My small alliance's operations are effected severely by this change. We're going to have to give up moons (we do have a few moons of lesser value in NPC space) since our JF pilots are going to have a tough time reaching them. Our capitals can't jump like they used to. We're a small alliance this isn't the end of our world. We can adapt to this.

The problem is there are aspects to this change that simply aren't thought through and those are what is hurting my alliance the worst. We're a Black Ops based Alliance. We use Black Ops for both PvE (Prospects are amazing null sec gas miners) and PvP. Personally I've trained 8 characters across 4 accounts to light Covert Cynos. We have max skill black ops bridging characters. Other players have altered training paths to do black ops work and fly recons and light covert cynos themselves.

Its taken a significant amount of time for our small alliance to get to this point, and now we're essentially being told that you should do something else. We're not N3 or the CFC or even the CVA. We don't have the numbers to adapt on a dime.

If these changes stay as is for Black Ops, the fleet can only bridge out and back once with 0 fatigue before delays. I can't tell if anyone in the fleet has more than 0 fatigue to even try to manage it as the FC. This change removes our entire play style. It'd be like CODE losing HS ganking or Marmite finding out they can only wardec one alliance at a time for us. My alliance has to completely re-specialize and at this point personally I'm not certain I'm willing to.

Tears or not, with no changes what is the role of the black ops BS and black ops fleet ships (bombers/recons) after this change? Are we getting SP reimbursement for Cyno 5? Jump Portal Operation on non titan trained characters? Are black ops going to get other unique abilities to make up for the nerf, or are we getting a tank upgrade so they can stand toe to toe with T1 line battleships? This is what I mean about changes not being thought through. Theres no role for an entire class of ships now.

With changes how many bridges/jumps can I expect to make in a day? a week? I'm not against stricter planning on ops but right now its more planning my Black OP (singular) for the week/month.


Add to this they have spent the last year wiping out retro-recovery tools. If you have an Amarr tower deep inside Caldari Isotope space, the import of Isotopes has become a logistics nightmare.

Put simple, CCP poopsocked us.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5746 - 2014-10-03 17:27:01 UTC
Dalia Rensini wrote:

Do you see anyone in null sec using gates in anything else other than inty / covops / fleet?

Why do you think anyone would want to use a gate (in a capital ship for several bil that cannot defend itself) and die to a small camp?

No. I assume they're too risk averse to actually put anything of value in a situation they could potentially lose, and that they're too lazy to use scouts or put forth the effort to hold open their lines of communication.

In short, I don't think that they deserve to own space, much less valuable space, and the incoming nerfs will sort those who can hack it from those who can't quite nicely.

For the record, I expect GSF to do just fine in their core holdings due to GSOL, and I think PL/N3 will be fine as well. BOT and PBLRD might be another story, time will tell, as wil the rest of the lesser CFC alliances. Provi will actually become quite attractive in the new paradigm, ironically enough.

The wildcard IMO is the Return of the Bittervets, who have been unsubbed for a while due to their hatred of Supercaps Online. It'll be mighty interesting to see what kind of chaos will ensue when a few hundred motivated pilots who crave nothing more than roaming small-mid size subcap brawls cut loose on the entrenched alliances. Especially when those alliances ability to teleport with impunity is curtailed.

I look forward to the burnination and tears with great relish, indeed.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#5747 - 2014-10-03 17:27:45 UTC
Daniel Westelius wrote:
CCP Greyscale, if you are trying to make this game difficult, you are not accomplishing it. You are making it boring and tedious. Having to wait in between jumps is not difficult, it is only time consuming.


Seriously, this is the core important point. It's 2014 and you're putting in a *travel nerf*? Seriously? WTF is this, Everquest 40k?
HarlyQ
harlyq syrokos investment station
#5748 - 2014-10-03 17:28:16 UTC
So I was looking at traveling to fanfest but then flight fatigue came into play so now it takes me three weeks to get their VIA this route https://i.imgur.com/y1hE054.jpg
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5749 - 2014-10-03 17:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Veers Belvar wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

I seem to remember that being from mostly pubbies, but whatevs.


See here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=376666&p=269

I assume Goonwaffe is not yet a pubbie? Also look at the very 1st page of this thread!

Quoting Alp Khan (of Goonwaffe!)

"Industrialists and logisticians are more likely to just relocate to empire than having to deal with the nightmare you seem to be having a wet dream about. Or worse, they'll just quit playing.

You are exceptionally naive if you seriously think that forcing logistics to face risk even from a small gang is going to make them smile and force them into offering multi billion haulers as sacrificial lamb for you. Scarcity of materials will become a reality. If not that, logisticians will start pushing their losses onto the end consumer. These will all negatively impact everybody's ability to attain T2 goods, which are consumed EVERYWHERE.

Your overtly simplistic expectations are adorable, but unrealistic. Economics, production and logistics do not work like that."


You seem to mistake a valid concern about EVE economics with tribalistic bullcrap, but then again, you never stoke me as a kind that could ever think beyond factional affiliations in a video game.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#5750 - 2014-10-03 17:28:59 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:

If you look you'll also find me saying that I think nullsec isn't fully independent enough for the JF nerf, but I'm pretty certain that we're well organized enough that it really doesn't matter all that much.

Also, notice how I said "from mostly pubbies", not "just from pubbies". But I'm sure you'll see only the ones you want to see, i.e. GSF posts, and ignore everything else.

Edit: Also, The Slayer saying "can't engage in combat for a MONTH" just indicates that he's seeing "fatigue" and thinking "cooldown". He should be saying "3 days, and even then only if you've been exceptionally dumb".


Look, personally I think Goons will find ways to adapt. Will things be harder and risker? Sure. But that just makes Eve better and more fun.

Having read all 288 pages of this thread, I can assure you that the overwhelming response from the Goons and other powerblocs (excepting perhaps PL) has been extremely negative, with many threatening to quit, move to empire etc.... Now obviously it could be that the people who are not so angry choose not to comment, but the negativity is mainly from the big sov holders, not the "pubbies," and in my view the anger is misplaced.
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#5751 - 2014-10-03 17:29:07 UTC
Switchblade Soliloquy Asheki wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
It looks like everyone rage quitting are CFC, N3 and PL.


Id figure to see more Black Legion since they are fanboys of the hotdrop.



Actually we're pretty mixed about it. But we've always been a group for adapting and surviving.
The only difference is our deployments will be longer, more localized, and we will actually get stuff done because it will be unrealistic and unlikely we'll be seeing a two-hundred archon blob there to stop us (enemy might be lucky to defend ONE location with these, good luck when you get attacked in several places)



Props to Greyscale...still hoping logistics gets a break here, and maybe blops too, but definitely on the right track.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5752 - 2014-10-03 17:29:37 UTC
Miriya Zakalwe wrote:
Daniel Westelius wrote:
CCP Greyscale, if you are trying to make this game difficult, you are not accomplishing it. You are making it boring and tedious. Having to wait in between jumps is not difficult, it is only time consuming.


Seriously, this is the core important point. It's 2014 and you're putting in a *travel nerf*? Seriously? WTF is this, Everquest 40k?


It would be like taking out teleport mechanism as everquest and saying, hey its fun. Ive already stated where this will lead.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5753 - 2014-10-03 17:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
Some of the best changes to come to the game in years. If capitals had existed without jump drives up until this point and you were adding the proposed iteration of jump drives, people would be screaming that they're insanely over powered and it's going to ruin the game. vOv
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5754 - 2014-10-03 17:30:23 UTC
Skydell wrote:
Toriessian wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:

We wake up the day after tomorrow. That's the moral of the story. We wake up. It's not over. The world doesn't end. We just keep going w/out football. A lot of folks really care about and love football, but we can all live without it.

It's the same w/ null power blocks. At the end of the day we don't need them to play eve. If they all instantly vanish there is still a good (many would argue better) game left behind.


My small alliance's operations are effected severely by this change. We're going to have to give up moons (we do have a few moons of lesser value in NPC space) since our JF pilots are going to have a tough time reaching them. Our capitals can't jump like they used to. We're a small alliance this isn't the end of our world. We can adapt to this.

The problem is there are aspects to this change that simply aren't thought through and those are what is hurting my alliance the worst. We're a Black Ops based Alliance. We use Black Ops for both PvE (Prospects are amazing null sec gas miners) and PvP. Personally I've trained 8 characters across 4 accounts to light Covert Cynos. We have max skill black ops bridging characters. Other players have altered training paths to do black ops work and fly recons and light covert cynos themselves.

Its taken a significant amount of time for our small alliance to get to this point, and now we're essentially being told that you should do something else. We're not N3 or the CFC or even the CVA. We don't have the numbers to adapt on a dime.

If these changes stay as is for Black Ops, the fleet can only bridge out and back once with 0 fatigue before delays. I can't tell if anyone in the fleet has more than 0 fatigue to even try to manage it as the FC. This change removes our entire play style. It'd be like CODE losing HS ganking or Marmite finding out they can only wardec one alliance at a time for us. My alliance has to completely re-specialize and at this point personally I'm not certain I'm willing to.

Tears or not, with no changes what is the role of the black ops BS and black ops fleet ships (bombers/recons) after this change? Are we getting SP reimbursement for Cyno 5? Jump Portal Operation on non titan trained characters? Are black ops going to get other unique abilities to make up for the nerf, or are we getting a tank upgrade so they can stand toe to toe with T1 line battleships? This is what I mean about changes not being thought through. Theres no role for an entire class of ships now.

With changes how many bridges/jumps can I expect to make in a day? a week? I'm not against stricter planning on ops but right now its more planning my Black OP (singular) for the week/month.


Add to this they have spent the last year wiping out retro-recovery tools. If you have an Amarr tower deep inside Caldari Isotope space, the import of Isotopes has become a logistics nightmare.

Put simple, CCP poopsocked us.



Poopsocking - Don't let this be you! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAU3m4jOKBg

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5755 - 2014-10-03 17:30:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
HarlyQ wrote:
So I was looking at traveling to fanfest but then flight fatigue came into play so now it takes me three weeks to get their VIA this route https://i.imgur.com/y1hE054.jpg


Not to mention the subscription fatigue that masses seem to be starting to get...
Tauren Tom
Order of the Silver Dragons
Silver Dragonz
#5756 - 2014-10-03 17:30:48 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Tauren Tom wrote:
To add to the bandwagon unsubbing here... carrier/dread pilot for a couple years now... Already stripping down all my caps and getting ready to resell in null. Check your local markets. And yea, unsubbed 8 of 9 accounts. I'll unsub this one once I get done selling all my now useless caps.

Because no one wants to sit there staring at the fatigue bar, unable to defend what was established, or even change alliances and bring your key selling factor/merc support platform through space when you will be forever going "Why are we only going 25mph in a 65mph?"

Also, did anyone even think of how badly you've now screwed over mercs?


Nah bro youz got to unsubb nao!

Reason being, you'll still have access to your account for the time you paid up to to sell you stuff, but CCP will get the message TODAY on the number of unsubbs after this theorcraft trainwreck was announced.

Seriously if you want to send a loud and clear message - unsubb today!



Yea, you are right lol. Just sent the unsubb on this one too. I have a week to get everything sorted before i can't login anymore.
In the grand scheme of things... You're all pubbies. So HTFU.   "It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses." - Elwood Blues
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#5757 - 2014-10-03 17:32:16 UTC
Hey everyone, it's ragequitoclock...

nom nom
cherry popping
#5758 - 2014-10-03 17:32:37 UTC
HarlyQ wrote:
So I was looking at traveling to fanfest but then flight fatigue came into play so now it takes me three weeks to get their VIA this route https://i.imgur.com/y1hE054.jpg


close but i'm missing a camped airport
smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#5759 - 2014-10-03 17:32:42 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
smokeydapot wrote:


I also agree that null needs attention but not at the cost of the small guys trying to move to null they are so full of wonder until they are beaten back to high sec with whatever new toys we use. It's a numbers game and sad truth is the null blocks have the numbers the little guys by definition don't have this and will always suffer more so with this....





It's EVE though - punishing or axing emergent content created BY PLAYERS and not CCP, because of high SP veteran characters having gotten there first - that's also wrong.

I think players that understand the game are in a far better position to advise and consent via the CSM, rather than a 'ah this looks good... now lets go grab a beer!' and OP-Crush-It-With-A-Viking-Hammer development style.


Again, LONG LIVE THE OLD DEVS! I miss 'em!!!


I miss soundwave you can hate me if you want but I do.

Back to topic before ISD " nothing to see here move along "

I can't wait for all the tears to drench the forum when PL, goons or who ever decide to put 100 titans on a gate perma running smartbombs just because....

Who knows they may start small first with 500 carriers bwahahaha

The final solution
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5760 - 2014-10-03 17:33:27 UTC
Bullet Therapist wrote:
Some of the best changes to come to the game in years. If capitals had existed without jump drives up until this point and you were adding the proposed iteration of jump drives, people would be screaming that they're insanely over powered and it's going to ruin the game. vOv



Character Born 2012... geeeeee thanks for that 'Veteran Perspective' there chief! Roll

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf