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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5561 - 2014-10-03 14:39:17 UTC
Jethro Winchester wrote:

...
Gate camping will likely become an epidemic rivaled only by Bubonic Plague and Spanish Flu as it will be nearly impossible to effectively break the camp unless you are extremely lucky.
...


On short term at least, I think this will be the major change, especially in low-sec. I might be wrong though. Anyway, we don't have to wait much more to find out.

Join TheTuskers, travel to exotic distant lands, meet exciting unusual people and ... kill them!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5562 - 2014-10-03 14:39:18 UTC
Zhul Chembull wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Zhul Chembull wrote:

Not at all. Like I said numbers don't lie and I am laughing at your naïve conception of what will happen. You can not move expensive goods through low sec gates in a consistent fashion without losing all of it. I can tell you have never done logistics or you would not be spouting off what you have no idea about. You think you are going to get a piece of the pie somehow but the big alliances will make sure you don't get a crumb. You think when this goes into effect that they wont camp all the choke points to make a point to the devs ? I have 11 years to back up what I am saying which has been put forth logically. Like I said the number of subs vs unsubbs after this goes into effect will back up what I am saying. I HOPE I am wrong.


As i Said, and you were unable to read. I did logistic when there were no jump freighters. And it was NOT as you say it will be. Yes it needed a bit more involvement. I needed you to play the game. I have not 11 year playing, only 9 but is mroe than enough.

No I do not think I am going to get a piece of the pie. I will KILL SHIPS and playe the damm game because there will be more ships flying in the game.


And numbers do not lie? you presented NOT A SINGLE NUMBER!!!!!


I unsubbed all my accounts, do you have some that have added to that number ? That is a fact so there is a number of accounts less because of this upcoming upgrade. I know if I don't support a product I don't pay for it. I hope it changes but I doubt it. For the first time in a long time my mining fleet is not up. Shrug.



As I pointed, but you somehow think is less relevant than your, 4 friends subbing when this hits. Since 1 had 2 accounts other 3 one had only 1 account and the last one had 7, then is as significant as YOUR little personal rage.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#5563 - 2014-10-03 14:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: True Sight
Kagura Nikon wrote:
food for tought.. the vast majority of those were 0.0 dwellers and LEFT 0.0 because the game got BORIGN capital ships online. And we are happy because how 0.0 will be interestign enough for us to return.


food for thought... perhaps you're right and the reduction of power projection being gone will make them want to move back to 0.0, but when they realise how difficult it is to actually go anywhere now, even slowly, that their new 0.0 doesn't offer a stable JF service and they can't reach the alliance cyno beacons, they'll not bother going back at all.
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5564 - 2014-10-03 14:39:49 UTC
DNSBLACK wrote:


I know isn't that awsome . We never could control 200 moons before all over eve. Adapt or die and by the way HTFU. I now know what MA Bell felt like lol and would you look at the telecom industry today after lawsuit and cha he's were made. Well if you quit Cano have your stuff.


You are naive if you think you, as Dirt Nap Squad, will be able to control 200 moons after these changes either. You are hardly a large entity with numbers and resources... Just saying.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#5565 - 2014-10-03 14:40:13 UTC
BuddyKnife wrote:

I don't think you understand the scale we are talking. I don't have exact numbers but I know we have over 2,000 reaction towers that need materials that are not from our space. That kind of logistics is not possible without the use of jump freighters and making it so you have to spend 4x the time moving things is just going to make people quit. Not to mention the effects on the economy.


For years we have read Goons saying they were different from others (expecially BoB), because they were NOT the typical "elite hard core guild" of EQ / WoW memory and basically most of them did not even care to join fleets and lived an happy & casual life.


Suddenly it looks like you became super-committed, with giant cogs to keep oiled and make run at all costs else people will mass quit.

That reeks of BoB-itis to me. Are you telling me you got BoB-itis disease? Shocked

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Christopher Multsanti
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#5566 - 2014-10-03 14:42:50 UTC
RenoIdo wrote:
Christopher Multsanti wrote:
I have never enjoyed large scale warfare or capital battles. I only use a carrier on an alt for moving stuff. It's very handy.

I understand the problems that have been created by large groups and them having no restriction on their range of capital deployment. I really do. But these changes punish all players. The only way these changes would work would be if you brought out a hauler type carrier with the same skill requirement as current carriers but with same bonuses as jump freighters for traveling.

In general I think these changes are far to severe. I would say a realistic time for you get help from a cap fleet half way on other side of the galaxy at 2-3 hours. Maybe tweek the fatigue calculation so that for the first example in appendix a that the guy who gave up in his carrier because his wait time was crazy. Could make that trip in 2-3 hours. The point being that journey should be possible.


If you can't understand that instantly jumping around the most powerful ship in the game while only risking a cyno alt is a problem then you need to do some critical thinking.

It's been a joke that the most powerful class of ships can travel instantly and 100% risk free this whole time. Finally cap pilots will have to risk something like every other class of ship for their rewards.


I have deleted that post because I thought about it again. This is what I think now.

Haulers Kill Vagabond!
Kalissis
#5567 - 2014-10-03 14:43:02 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
gascanu wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:
Misha Hartmann wrote:
Another 2 things:

1. This hole change in effect renders caps (as logistic) more or less unusable in the grand scheme, CCP, what on earth do you think that will do to nullsec and some low sec PVP? How on earth are sub-cap ships going to get there? Are we going to fly them there 1 by one? I mean honestly? The more I think about it the dummer this change gets!

2. With the current distribution of ice belts, nearly all caps will be mostly grounded. No one can jump their caps because there are not isotopes and no one can get isotopes to the caps because its near impossible (depending where you are ofc)

The patch will make things interesting, but only for a few weeks maybe months. After that it will just be a pain because nothing can be moved. The game will become work, not fun. I do not know the exact percentage of total eve players that live in null, but I am sure its a significant. This patch will make it tough to live in null, and with that alot of null players will stop.

I really support the idea of trying to make capitals being used more on their own, but there must be an intelligent way of doing it, because the current one, as is, is just stupid.


Honestly HTFU. Your post ills me on how soft the players of this game have gotten. The value if time has returned, the value of organizing has returned, the value of ships have return, the onta action dog piling is being gutted, the kits cash cow is being sliced open and spread out all around high sec, ship replacement program have more value. These changes return eve to the day of the lone wolf butterfly effect and move us away from the embarassment of B-R. You need to embrace the cliff and get your lips off of the tit of easy mode. If your are a eve player you will look at these changes and except the challange, if you are a insta action log in when convient fly by mmo wow child you will quit and the over all IQ of if will be better for it. I personally hope the people crying in this thread and threatening to quit do so the vets who miss the game that made eve great will return and set the universe on fire.

oh are you a vet then?
set the universe on fire? how will you do that with cruisers?


You dont have a clue what you are talking about, DNSBlack is one of the oldest and "respected" individuals in EVE, he knows what he is talking about:

http://evenews24.com/2014/10/01/re-post-a-letter-to-the-csm7-back-to-the-gates/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNXqsxz8V50

And to be hontest, he is on point AGAIN!

ps. DNSBlack will use ARAZUS, not "cruisers".

you still don't answer to my question;
i like how some "vets" here are all joy getting their 2004 eve back, but you faill to consider that in fact this change will not bring back that eve; you didn't have bubble immune intys back then, no nullified t3, no bombers, to name just a few; you did not have CAPS all around the universe back then; also, let's not forget batleships where able to actually do 20 jumps in a resonable amount of time back then, and even the freighters(yea, i know) where able to do an 100AU warp in less that a evening;
so yea, keep asking for 2004 eve back, don't be surprised when all you get will be 250 dreads in the face Cool

ps; i will be curios how will be anyone able to take and keep sov in arazus Shocked


So you are making your argument for yourself, for new players its a very good change, especially when you can get out into NULL with only one click!

New players should and usually dont have caps! If you are into PVP why ruining the experience for newer players by having them sit in TIDI while all they want is fun! So it is a very beneficial improvment for newer players.
RenoIdo
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5568 - 2014-10-03 14:43:15 UTC
BuddyKnife wrote:
To all the people who say that large scale logistics is not needed or that it should be nerfed more to break up the large blocks. I am sorry to inform you this is an empire building game a large portion of the players play this game for that exact reason. If you take away our empire you take away our reason to play.

Please change back the JF and Rorqual jump range till you have fixed the T1 mineral distribution and made a meaningful attempt at making all T2 materials available in all parts of space. Maybe ring mining?

@CCPgreyscale @CCPdev


If you think that being a logistics pilot in a power bloc has anything to do with building an empire you are delusional.

You are a puppet to your leaders. You don't need a few guys telling thousands how to play to build an empire. With these changes you can have a couple hundred people working together to build an actual empire, not be puppets for one that already exists.
FraXy
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#5569 - 2014-10-03 14:43:19 UTC
Jethro Winchester wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Always fascinating to hear the Goons in actions. Somehow the following two points are internally consistent:

1. The nerf to capital movement won't really hurt goons because they will just cache capitals all over their space and run 1000 man megathron and cruiser fleets to respond to challenges on the fringes of their space. Their massive numbers will also allow them to seamlessly run logistics and supply throughout their vast space, and not compel them to abandon territory.

2. The changes will lead to a massive spike in T2 prices throughout Eve (this is a bad thing? Might actually make model tiercide matter), because no one (including the vaunted Goon logistics crew from point 1. above) will be able to get moon goo to production centers. None of the many viable options, including wormholes, chains of alts, intelligent route planning, blockade runners, etc... will matter, because the whole T2 market will simply collapse in spectacular fashion.

?


The changes may not hurt their ability to hold space. But they will hurt their ability to have fun, and that extends to a good chunk of the player-base in New Eden including those in lowsec who nobody seems to remember or care about.

Those who scream "CRY MOAR FILTHY NULLBEARS TROLOLOL" have clearly not bothered to sit down and consider all of the ramifications of this.

Smaller groups will have extreme difficulty with logistics and moving will be almost out of the question unless every line member either abandons their belongings or owns a carrier and is willing to dedicate a week or more to doing nothing but jumping and staring at timers.


Ability to have fun is relative. One does not need teleport mechanics to pick fights.

For the logistics portion. Smaller deployments will still be in easy reach packing up a skirmish oriented travel bag whilst an all-out move op will be hell in New Eden as is the intention.

Moving an alliance worth of assets across empire should be a serious hindrance, and not something decided lightly.

One man's junk is FraXy's choice of weapon to kill you with.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5570 - 2014-10-03 14:43:22 UTC
True Sight wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
food for tought.. the vast majority of those were 0.0 dwellers and LEFT 0.0 because the game got BORIGN capital ships online. And we are happy because how 0.0 will be interestign enough for us to return.


food for thought... perhaps your right and the reduction of power projection being gone will make them want to move back to 0.0, but when they realise how difficult it is to actually go anywhere now, even slowly, that their new 0.0 doesn't offer a stable JF service and they can't reach the alliance cyno beacons, they'll not bother going back at all.



Most of us lived in 0.0 when these things did not exist. We are not cry babies, we will not stop playing because of such pitiful things.


Current 0.0 generation are spoiled kids.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5571 - 2014-10-03 14:45:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:


Also, such a scheme hurts the small entities and guys who are unable to secure logistical lines!


At least that's the propaganda you're pushing today.

Like you've ever been concerned with "small entities".


Propaganda? Please tell us how it's propaganda, and meanwhile, explain to us how a small group without numbers and resources will ever secure a gate to gate logistical line into the deep null!

The mere fact that you cannot explain how this is propaganda, or how you cannot explain how a solo guy or a small entity can ever do the logistical work you appear to be so keen on is telling. You have only been pushing an emotional, shallow and pedantic knee-jerk reaction here, probably dreaming to yourself how these changes will make you or whatever group you are involved with being the top dogs in null or something.

Your romantic daydreams, while quite adorable, has nothing to do with the facts and problems we are discussing here.
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5572 - 2014-10-03 14:45:24 UTC
Kal Azkar wrote:
This idea is terrible, and trying to fix it is just making it worse... there are lots of other methods I am sure, but I question why are we only getting answers from the Devs when suggestions are being made. The Devs are paid money by CCP from our Subs to create ways for the paying customers to have fun and enjoy their time.


CCP is a corporate entity. It's job and there fore everyone that works for them's job is to make money. If there was a way I could emphasize the period on the end of "make money." I would because that is it end of story. The Devs job is not to create ways for paying customers to have fun they increase your fun level only in as much as it increases or at least as much as they think it will increase their bottom line.

Now-a-days most game manufacturers higher Psychiatrists and Psychologists to advise them on how to get people to continue to pay money. The lawyers and the bean counters also have a say in this.

You many say well obviously if the game is fun then they'll make money and the more fun the game is the more money they will make but you are wrong or at least the business model of today will tell them you are wrong.

Cigarette manufacturers didn't look for ways to make cigarettes taste better or anything like that they looked for ways to make them more addictive. Food manufacturers put sugar and corn sweeteners into most of our food for the same reason. TV shows often are not as concerned with making a show that you enjoy watching so much as they are making sure that you tune in next week which is why we have cliff hangars not only at the end of every show but just before each commercial break.

Like wise CCP is more focused on getting you "hooked" on the game than they are making sure you have fun. They want your money not your fun.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#5573 - 2014-10-03 14:46:24 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Most of us lived in 0.0 when these things did not exist. We are not cry babies, we will not stop playing because of such pitiful things.


Current 0.0 generation are spoiled kids.



you can throw any statement back to nostalgia, I started in 2003, I know what Null has been like from then till now. There's a lot of differences since then too, there's a lot more logistics that need doing and a lot more things making it difficult for you. a 5ly range on JF's along with arbitrary cooldowns when all some poor guy wants to do is logon and refuel a few towers is not fun or emergent gameplay, it's no better a timesink than a EA made smartphone game.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#5574 - 2014-10-03 14:46:54 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:

Goons can and certainly will, as Goons have numbers (that they can now concentrate in the best regions they would like to hold) and resources.

Smaller guys and lesser entities? Not so much. They will realize that accumulating the few numbers and lesser amount of resources into a larger entity is the only way that they can operate competitively and reasonably in null.

End result? Power blocs and stagnation.

What were we trying to end again?


It's years that the game is stagnating witih the current rules.

All complain the game is stagnating and CCP want to throw a giant boulder in the tranquil lake and see what happens.

Leaving the game as is, EvE stays stagnant for sure. Going out to the wild MAY fail to change anything but MAY also work.

Which of the two approaches is more practical? Stay as is as you say and sit in a stagnant ethernity or at least try doing something?

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5575 - 2014-10-03 14:48:51 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Kal Azkar wrote:
This idea is terrible, and trying to fix it is just making it worse... there are lots of other methods I am sure, but I question why are we only getting answers from the Devs when suggestions are being made. The Devs are paid money by CCP from our Subs to create ways for the paying customers to have fun and enjoy their time.


CCP is a corporate entity. It's job and there fore everyone that works for them's job is to make money. If there was a way I could emphasize the period on the end of "make money." I would because that is it end of story. The Devs job is not to create ways for paying customers to have fun they increase your fun level only in as much as it increases or at least as much as they think it will increase their bottom line.

Now-a-days most game manufacturers higher Psychiatrists and Psychologists to advise them on how to get people to continue to pay money. The lawyers and the bean counters also have a say in this.

You many say well obviously if the game is fun then they'll make money and the more fun the game is the more money they will make but you are wrong or at least the business model of today will tell them you are wrong.

Cigarette manufacturers didn't look for ways to make cigarettes taste better or anything like that they looked for ways to make them more addictive. Food manufacturers put sugar and corn sweeteners into most of our food for the same reason. TV shows often are not as concerned with making a show that you enjoy watching so much as they are making sure that you tune in next week which is why we have cliff hangars not only at the end of every show but just before each commercial break.

Like wise CCP is more focused on getting you "hooked" on the game than they are making sure you have fun. They want your money not your fun.


However, the reality with the computer games is that once they stop being satisfying, entertaining and being fun, consumers (players) move on to alternatives, and drop your product.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5576 - 2014-10-03 14:49:58 UTC
True Sight wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Most of us lived in 0.0 when these things did not exist. We are not cry babies, we will not stop playing because of such pitiful things.


Current 0.0 generation are spoiled kids.



you can throw any statement back to nostalgia, I started in 2003, I know what Null has been like from then till now. There's a lot of differences since then too, there's a lot more logistics that need doing and a lot more things making it difficult for you. a 5ly range on JF's along with arbitrary cooldowns when all some poor guy wants to do is logon and refuel a few towers is not fun or emergent gameplay, it's no better a timesink than a EA made smartphone game.



What ccp wants is that you should NOT have so many tower to refuel and should surely not have them far away from each other.

IF that is what happens then ccp reached what they want.

Yeah it will be some bothersome things , but for a much greater goal. I am not saying it will not hurt anyone at all, jsut that is not the end of the universe as some are claiming.

How about instead of raging you suggest different values for the changes that get in a mid term and with logic foundation on why those values are a better compromise?

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#5577 - 2014-10-03 14:50:30 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:


Goons can and certainly will, as Goons have numbers (that they can now concentrate in the best regions they would like to hold) and resources.

Smaller guys and lesser entities? Not so much. They will realize that accumulating the few numbers and lesser amount of resources into a larger entity is the only way that they can operate competitively and reasonably in null.

End result? Power blocs and stagnation.

What were we trying to end again?


And you think they are done with changes. Oh, poor goon.

Because everyone want's to be sheep.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5578 - 2014-10-03 14:50:44 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Kal Azkar wrote:
This idea is terrible, and trying to fix it is just making it worse... there are lots of other methods I am sure, but I question why are we only getting answers from the Devs when suggestions are being made. The Devs are paid money by CCP from our Subs to create ways for the paying customers to have fun and enjoy their time.


CCP is a corporate entity. It's job and there fore everyone that works for them's job is to make money. If there was a way I could emphasize the period on the end of "make money." I would because that is it end of story. The Devs job is not to create ways for paying customers to have fun they increase your fun level only in as much as it increases or at least as much as they think it will increase their bottom line.

Now-a-days most game manufacturers higher Psychiatrists and Psychologists to advise them on how to get people to continue to pay money. The lawyers and the bean counters also have a say in this.

You many say well obviously if the game is fun then they'll make money and the more fun the game is the more money they will make but you are wrong or at least the business model of today will tell them you are wrong.

Cigarette manufacturers didn't look for ways to make cigarettes taste better or anything like that they looked for ways to make them more addictive. Food manufacturers put sugar and corn sweeteners into most of our food for the same reason. TV shows often are not as concerned with making a show that you enjoy watching so much as they are making sure that you tune in next week which is why we have cliff hangars not only at the end of every show but just before each commercial break.

Like wise CCP is more focused on getting you "hooked" on the game than they are making sure you have fun. They want your money not your fun.


However, the reality with the computer games is that once they stop being satisfying, entertaining and being fun, consumers (players) move on to alternatives, and drop your product.



Sicne this is a PVP game, the main fun focus shoudl be changes that create more confict... like this one. Thanks for supporting the changes then.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
DNSBLACK
Dirt Nap Squad
#5579 - 2014-10-03 14:50:57 UTC  |  Edited by: DNSBLACK
Alp Khan wrote:
DNSBLACK wrote:


I know isn't that awsome . We never could control 200 moons before all over eve. Adapt or die and by the way HTFU. I now know what MA Bell felt like lol and would you look at the telecom industry today after lawsuit and cha he's were made. Well if you quit Cano have your stuff.


You are naive if you think you, as Dirt Nap Squad, will be able to control 200 moons after these changes either. You are hardly a large entity with numbers and resources... Just saying.


Exactly but we can control one and the cool part is the price of the one will sky rocket and won't have to move it to jita to sell it and if it gets taken and the people sent there to fight everynight for it we will take it back (omg occupation sov). But havnt you heard they are fixing siphons and also going to let us moon mine with ships. What will you do then to prevent me from mining come and kill me. Yea we are playing eve now. As a goon please HTFU and by the way I hear BoB may be reforming. Watching your to organization slap fight was the most fun I have ever had.
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#5580 - 2014-10-03 14:51:02 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
CCP is a corporate entity. It's job and there fore everyone that works for them's job is to make money. If there was a way I could emphasize the period on the end of "make money." I would because that is it end of story. The Devs job is not to create ways for paying customers to have fun they increase your fun level only in as much as it increases or at least as much as they think it will increase their bottom line.


... And they make money by making a game that people want to pay to access?

ergherhdfgh wrote:
Now-a-days most game manufacturers higher Psychiatrists and Psychologists to advise them on how to get people to continue to pay money. The lawyers and the bean counters also have a say in this.


not most, a couple of very nasty ones, luckily still generally isolated to the smartphone, tablet and web based platforms such as the wonderful groups behind things like Candy Crush, Farmville and Dungeon Keeper.

Luckily, a lot of game developers still make games because they actually love games and are passionate about the game they are working on.

ergherhdfgh wrote:
You many say well obviously if the game is fun then they'll make money and the more fun the game is the more money they will make but you are wrong or at least the business model of today will tell them you are wrong.


Yes and no, it's a bit more about perception. WoW is one of the most successful games of all-time, whether the people on this forum think it's a fun game or not doesn't matter, because at it's peak, enough people talked about it and encouraged/got friends and people they know to join them and play with them, to at least some degree, people enjoyed logging on and playing the game.

ergherhdfgh wrote:
Cigarette manufacturers didn't look for ways to make cigarettes taste better or anything like that they looked for ways to make them more addictive. Food manufacturers put sugar and corn sweeteners into most of our food for the same reason. TV shows often are not as concerned with making a show that you enjoy watching so much as they are making sure that you tune in next week which is why we have cliff hangars not only at the end of every show but just before each commercial break.


Sadly, this is pretty much all true, on the bright side though, none of these companies are designing our computer games.
Like wise CCP is more focused on getting you "hooked" on the game than they are making sure you have fun. They want your money not your fun. [/quote]