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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#5501 - 2014-10-03 13:43:30 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Rollaz wrote:
CCP Greyscale
CCP Logibro
CCP Fozzie

If it hasn't been said before...

A char that's been sold should either:

A. Have it's jump timer reset
or
B. The Character Bazaar char disclosures needs to be updated to require the disclosure of a timer greater then "x" days.


Also, can we these two values added to the API so we can see them out of game?


No you shouldn't be able to see them out of game.


Considering the time and duration, along with character sales, yes I see this as a option. You don't want people to know your cooldown, don't add it to your api.

Will people micromanage it, yes, but they would have regardless.

Yaay!!!!
Vhaine Vhindiscar
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5502 - 2014-10-03 13:43:50 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Terraniel Aurelius wrote:
With the maximum jump range being 5 Lightyears, this will no longer be the case for several regions. With the proposed jump fatigue mechanic "very quickly" turns to painfully slowly. Gate camps will become the new standard for "Sov PvP".

I feel as though you have forgotten that we do not play this game in a vacuum. This will reduce the maneuverability of fleets and make them much more predictable. Spies will now eliminate any surprise factors that could have been had. If you think that spies are not a factor, then you have not played this game enough to understand how it works.


Yes, the geography is going to make a lot of difference. Yes, getting the upper hand over the enemy fleet is going to be hard. These are both things that we see as broadly positive.

Letrange wrote:
@greyscale @anyFC

Sudden though, could FC's chime in on this?

Would it be possible to add some form of jump fatigue indicator of a fleet and not just the individual pilots? I think that FC's would like to know what the max jump timer and max fatigue (and possible average jump timer and average fatigue with a x/y indicator indicating how many pilots are still part of the average) for a fleet without having to manually ask the pilots in the fleet to yell out how much jump cooldown they have left.

New tab on the fleet panel, some other indicator. Since there's now a cool-down after a jump and it's influenced by fatigue, it may be different for various members of a fleet. Also knowing if anyone still has fatigue going INTO a fleet since this means that parts of the fleet may take longer before they're able to jump than the rest of the fleet.

Also good for normal fleets using bridges since fc's may want to keep "sudden movement" capability of using jump bridges in reserve and knowing how much fatigue is in the fleet as a whole and how much that'll hang up their ability to use the next jump bridge may need to factor into their decision making.


Added this to my "to discuss" list.




Added to 'discuss' list? Didn't you realize this was going to be a major annoyance from the start? Every single character you have will be running timers. Possibly different timers.

What you're doing is called recon by fire. It's dumb, wasteful, and dangerous. Stop.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5503 - 2014-10-03 13:44:29 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yes, the geography is going to make a lot of difference. Yes, getting the upper hand over the enemy fleet is going to be hard. These are both things that we see as broadly positive.



What about the issues around the outer edges of EVE? Smaller entities are going to struggle with the JF changes but out there the space is likely to be all but verboten to them thanks to the likes of us who they have to get through.

Also as a sidenote on titans/supers, are there any plans to have them able to dock somewhere so the pilot can get out? Right now they are not exactly heavily used on a day to day basis which will only get worse with these changes.
Moisturised Esophagus
Sec-See
#5504 - 2014-10-03 13:45:34 UTC
90% of the people posting in favour of these changes are noob alts and hi/low sec dwellers.

Food for thought.
Davionia Vanshel
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
#5505 - 2014-10-03 13:46:19 UTC
Zhul Chembull wrote:


I unsubbed all my accounts, do you have some that have added to that number ? That is a fact so there is a number of accounts less because of this upcoming upgrade. I know if I don't support a product I don't pay for it. I hope it changes but I doubt it. For the first time in a long time my mining fleet is not up. Shrug.



Well I can do you one even better - I subbed a new account to get me the additional Cynos I need to nullify the JF changes. Problem solved - for me that is.

FraXy
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#5506 - 2014-10-03 13:48:00 UTC
Moisturised Esophagus wrote:
90% of the people posting in favour of these changes are noob alts and hi/low sec dwellers.

Food for thought.


90% of the people posting opposed to change wants to keep the status quo.

Your point?

One man's junk is FraXy's choice of weapon to kill you with.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#5507 - 2014-10-03 13:48:29 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
hezie99 wrote:
As has been said a number of times... I dont believe the issue is with the combat aspect of it, we welcome some of the changes. its more the logistical issues.

CCP: be smart take JFs etc out of this re balance and leave them as are, there is no reason why they should change, especially since you have stopped death clones.




Nerf JF further. Take the knees out from under the large empires. Make logistics impossible to manage for LAAARGE alliances. Once folks start taking care of themselves, they will realize they don't need big daddy to give them handouts.

The loud cry to let up on JF nerfs is the absolute reason the cut should be just a little bit deeper to them.

Honestly, if (as in someone's example) the price of a covert ops cloak goes from 5 mil back to 100 mil.... Sweet, little start up corps/alliances will be able to fund their efforts bringing them to market. A task that is too difficult for a large lazy bloated oversized..... (you get the picture) alliance will be a welcome opportunity for agile and nimble groups.

The covert ops cloaks will get built and prices will stabalize. If they stabalize at really high levels then isk will recoup some of it's value. I recall the days when I paid 14 mil for a fleeting webber because the T2 variant was too expensive. If the best option for a webber is a 14 mill fleeting, then npc loot will again have value and folks will stop to collect it. OMG... this would cause folks to go out an play the game to make isk. They would hang in belts/anoms longer promoting pvp.

My point is that if someones argument is that it's too difficult to XXXXX, those claims are on a personal level. There will always be 1,000s of guys lower on the food chain willing to step up and feast on another's scraps. If you're too rich to be bothered picking up that 14 mill isk webber from the wreck, it's probably time to go lose some ships in pvp.


Again, you are invoking your personal nostalgia from a distant time that EVE had less subscribers and concurrent logins. Also you are ignoring the fact that a small and a nimble group still will not have a chance at getting those goods to production centers and getting the final goods to the markets without incurring greater risk that they will have to pass onto the final consumers, thus making them noncompetitive versus larger, resourceful and more organized entities which will be able to do all of that with less risk.

If it is your intent to go back to these days, by all means, continue to hold onto your nostalgia. But I'm afraid your nostalgia has never been a fiscal environment that CCP would like to see themselves in. I'm pretty sure CCP does not want the subscription numbers and concurrent number of logins to the days that you seem to be so keen to remember.



I just want to be able to pop out of a wh and dunk your supply lines, giggle and disappear. I want to be able to do it again 20 minutes later on the other side of eve.

It's about transporting vast quantities of stuff is too easy. That makes it too easy to maintain large power blocks that can (and have) put a strangle hold on meaningful null pvp.

I don't want to go back in time. I want to remove the cancer (big boring power blocks that wield I win buttons) from the game. I want pvp. I want small gang pvp. I want rampant piracy peeing down the FW air hose in lowsex. I want supply chains I can mess with. I want Tri-mark 27 to have a blood fued with the 3rd coming of Atlas. I want Bruce fanatics to be able to hold their ground to the last man. I want some yet to be formed pure Peruvian alliance to be able to hold cloud ring because it sux, but it's all thiers.

I WANT FUN - YOU CAN'T DENY ME FOREVER!!!!!!!!
Grave Digger Eriker
Doomheim
#5508 - 2014-10-03 13:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Grave Digger Eriker
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Added this to my "to discuss" list.
Discuss with whom, you obviously completely ignored the CSM and an extension of that the PLAYEBASE

CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)
Thanks for the insulting signature. So anyone who has constructive input over the weekend will not be reviewd.


Enjoy your weekend! you may have more time by next summer when CCP collapses due to revenue decline
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#5509 - 2014-10-03 13:49:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Princess Nexxala
Bahahahaha!

Talk about stirring some **** up, well done CCP.

Will be interesting to see how this pans out.


To all the quitters, nobody gives a ****. Odds are half of you will be back in 2 weeks. Like you neckbeards have anything else to do...

nom nom
Mort4l
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5510 - 2014-10-03 13:51:29 UTC
Do it.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#5511 - 2014-10-03 13:53:28 UTC
Ok so me and my brother got pretty trashed last night and came up with the way to achieve the density that is required to have occupation based sov but also increase pvp and have free enterprise.


The idea is loosely based on Baltec1 idea of having mission in all 0.0 outposts...

Remember way back in the day before there was sov space, before pos, before outposts... the only way you could claim something in deep space with shooting at and taking over a conquerable Station.

I read the 0.0 null alliance wish list where they want more NPC space in every 0.0 region to act was jumping points to fight out of.


What I would like to see is instead of new NPC space added to existing 0.0... I want to see new non conquerable stations added to 0.0 conquerable space.

There would be a bunch several of these stations added per region.

These stations would be the ones that have mission agents in them. Mission would be combat related and go from level 1-5.

These stations could be found in systems that already have outposts in them.

These stations would be free ports and anyone in eve could dock in them.

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#5512 - 2014-10-03 13:53:43 UTC
BuddyKnife wrote:
To all the people who say that large scale logistics is not needed or that it should be nerfed more to break up the large blocks. I am sorry to inform you this is an empire building game a large portion of the players play this game for that exact reason. If you take away our empire you take away our reason to play.

Please change back the JF and Rorqual jump range till you have fixed the T1 mineral distribution and made a meaningful attempt at making all T2 materials available in all parts of space. Maybe ring mining?

@CCPgreyscale @CCPdev



I think we're here beaking the current null not because it's 2 massive empires are vibrant and happy, but because it is stale, boring and only ISBoxers log in if there isn't a timer involved. Your large empires are teh suxors and logins are proving it.
Jean Luc Lemmont
Carebears on Fire
#5513 - 2014-10-03 13:53:49 UTC
Moisturised Esophagus wrote:
90% of the people posting in favour of these changes are noob alts and hi/low sec dwellers.

Food for thought.


That doesn't necessarily mean we're wrong, nor does it imply we don't know what we're talking about. And having a 10 year old character in no way implies that the player behind it has actually played the game for ten years.

Will I get banned for boxing!?!?!

This thread has degenerated to the point it's become like two bald men fighting over a comb. -- Doc Fury

It's bonuses, not boni, you cretins.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#5514 - 2014-10-03 13:54:23 UTC
FraXy wrote:
Moisturised Esophagus wrote:
90% of the people posting in favour of these changes are noob alts and hi/low sec dwellers.

Food for thought.


90% of the people posting opposed to change wants to keep the status quo.

Your point?


90% of the people posting made up statistics are fools.

Ah-dammit.Sad

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Dalia Rensini
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5515 - 2014-10-03 13:55:29 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
hezie99 wrote:
As has been said a number of times... I dont believe the issue is with the combat aspect of it, we welcome some of the changes. its more the logistical issues.

CCP: be smart take JFs etc out of this re balance and leave them as are, there is no reason why they should change, especially since you have stopped death clones.




Nerf JF further. Take the knees out from under the large empires. Make logistics impossible to manage for LAAARGE alliances. Once folks start taking care of themselves, they will realize they don't need big daddy to give them handouts.

The loud cry to let up on JF nerfs is the absolute reason the cut should be just a little bit deeper to them.

Honestly, if (as in someone's example) the price of a covert ops cloak goes from 5 mil back to 100 mil.... Sweet, little start up corps/alliances will be able to fund their efforts bringing them to market. A task that is too difficult for a large lazy bloated oversized..... (you get the picture) alliance will be a welcome opportunity for agile and nimble groups.

The covert ops cloaks will get built and prices will stabalize. If they stabalize at really high levels then isk will recoup some of it's value. I recall the days when I paid 14 mil for a fleeting webber because the T2 variant was too expensive. If the best option for a webber is a 14 mill fleeting, then npc loot will again have value and folks will stop to collect it. OMG... this would cause folks to go out an play the game to make isk. They would hang in belts/anoms longer promoting pvp.

My point is that if someones argument is that it's too difficult to XXXXX, those claims are on a personal level. There will always be 1,000s of guys lower on the food chain willing to step up and feast on another's scraps. If you're too rich to be bothered picking up that 14 mill isk webber from the wreck, it's probably time to go lose some ships in pvp.


Dear Serendipity, you are so wrong it actually hurts. The big alliances have the resources, manpower, willpower and redundancies to be able to overcome this JF nerf with ease.

It is the small guys without the infrastructure and support network behind them who are going to suffer most.
Also everyone else who buys anything in Eve as markets and manufacturing feel the impact of more expensive logistics.
Anthar Thebess
#5516 - 2014-10-03 13:55:40 UTC
Moisturised Esophagus wrote:
90% of the people posting in favour of these changes are noob alts and hi/low sec dwellers.

Food for thought.

You are wrong.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Jethro Winchester
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5517 - 2014-10-03 13:58:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yes, the geography is going to make a lot of difference. Yes, getting the upper hand over the enemy fleet is going to be hard. These are both things that we see as broadly positive.



What about the issues around the outer edges of EVE? Smaller entities are going to struggle with the JF changes but out there the space is likely to be all but verboten to them thanks to the likes of us who they have to get through.

Also as a sidenote on titans/supers, are there any plans to have them able to dock somewhere so the pilot can get out? Right now they are not exactly heavily used on a day to day basis which will only get worse with these changes.


Give it up. Nobody is listening.

He doesn't give a flying fuck about what anybody thinks. He'll make some small "tweaks" in order to triumphantly claim that the changes were implemented with player support and feedback and ram the entire thing down our collective throats, confident in the belief that 'Greyscale knows best.".

Then a couple of months later CCP will backpedal furiously when they realize how horrible an idea all of this really was.
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#5518 - 2014-10-03 13:58:46 UTC
Moisturised Esophagus wrote:
90% of the people posting in favour of these changes are noob alts and hi/low sec dwellers.

Food for thought.


Yeah, obviously them not living in NullSec 24/7 means they are idiots that should be ignored. If life were that easy. Luckily I'm not judging all NullSec-people by the quality of your posts. Roll

But I agree people posting on alts are another matter. Cowards should always be ignored, like a cowardly lot deserves.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#5519 - 2014-10-03 14:00:13 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Rollaz wrote:
CCP Greyscale
CCP Logibro
CCP Fozzie

If it hasn't been said before...

A char that's been sold should either:

A. Have it's jump timer reset
or
B. The Character Bazaar char disclosures needs to be updated to require the disclosure of a timer greater then "x" days.


Also, can we these two values added to the API so we can see them out of game?


No you shouldn't be able to see them out of game.


Considering the time and duration, along with character sales, yes I see this as a option. You don't want people to know your cooldown, don't add it to your api.

Will people micromanage it, yes, but they would have regardless.



Any data that can be considered 'meta data' in my eyes (which are of course by definition perfect) should not be available in api. I'm sorry but I can't see it coming up in non meta game play where someone buys a character and gets all upset about a cool down timer. If cool down timer is a big deal in a character purchase, then.... I really don't care if that hurts you.

Buy character, set clone, suicide to desired location, jump in cap and cyno off...... if this is on you're mind you have too much isk and should be punished. (it's a good thing I'm not a judge :P )
Owen Levanth
Sagittarius Unlimited Exploration
#5520 - 2014-10-03 14:01:14 UTC
Jethro Winchester wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Yes, the geography is going to make a lot of difference. Yes, getting the upper hand over the enemy fleet is going to be hard. These are both things that we see as broadly positive.



What about the issues around the outer edges of EVE? Smaller entities are going to struggle with the JF changes but out there the space is likely to be all but verboten to them thanks to the likes of us who they have to get through.

Also as a sidenote on titans/supers, are there any plans to have them able to dock somewhere so the pilot can get out? Right now they are not exactly heavily used on a day to day basis which will only get worse with these changes.


Give it up. Nobody is listening.

He doesn't give a flying fuck about what anybody thinks. He'll make some small "tweaks" in order to triumphantly claim that the changes were implemented with player support and feedback and ram the entire thing down our collective throats, confident in the belief that 'Greyscale knows best.".

Then a couple of months later CCP will backpedal furiously when they realize how horrible an idea all of this really was.


Or it ends like the industry-revamp and everything works out in CCPs favour.