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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Findell Ronuken
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4701 - 2014-10-03 01:34:38 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
See, when you say things like "compressed goods", you stop sounding smart, and the reason you disagree with us becomes clear: you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can move 620 million units of tritanium in compressed veldspar in a single JF load, assuming 88% refine and 320,000m3 capacity on the JF.

How much stuff do you need to build that requires that much raw material?

Supercaptials. Almost all those minerals are imported from empire along with all the moon minerals that 0.0 export to empire. T2 prices will spike hard.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#4702 - 2014-10-03 01:35:28 UTC
Gunner GzR wrote:
all i can say for you null bears that trolled in the wh change thread and rejoiced at our complaints is

Carma is awesome

HAHAHAHAHAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I hope they remove or delay local as well

I guess stooping to the same level results in bad spelling karma.

:fp

I'm right behind you
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#4703 - 2014-10-03 01:36:20 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:

Also, there's only so many chokepoints you can control. So long as you can get past the entrance system - from any angle - you have free reign.

For example, staging out of the NPC station in J-CJIV in Pure Blind lets you hit 11 systems in Deklein. Staging out of DO6 (no station, but a viable midpoint) gives you reach for another 5. And that's not counting taking one of the 5 regional gates into Dekelein - which you can fit caps through, by the way - which again gives you free reign of the region. Oh, and that's only considering capitals, not the use of nullified T3s and the like, or the use of cloaky nullified T3s via BLOPS with BR support, or the use of wormholes.

In fact, wormholes become the near perfect way to get folks in for an assault, since there's no way for the defender to prevent them from giving access to their space nor any way to predict when / where they'll pop up.


Like most of the people in this thread, you are missing the point. It's not about the fleets. It's about the ISK. Having the best military didn't do the Germans any good in WW II, or Napoleon in the wars that bear his name. 95% of the Japanese merchant marine was at the bottom of the Pacific by June of 1944.

These wars were all lost due to the other side's preponderance of wealth and resources.

Players who rely upon heavily interdicted chokepoint systems and wormholes for trade will be easily dominated by those who do not.

Examine your premises.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.
Rarnak Ki
Twilight Hour Industries
Barely-Legal
#4704 - 2014-10-03 01:36:27 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Degalo wrote:
"Stop playing the game the way you want. Start playing it how I say."

That's what you're telling people to do.

I'm saying that owning your own empire out in the lawless wildlands of space, particularly those lawless wilds of space far from empire, SHOULD NOT BE A CAKEWALK.

If you don't want to go through the effort involved in living out there, don't. Other people will, no worries.

If you don't want to adapt to the changes coming down the pipe, fine. Don't. Other people will, no worries.

What burns me is when folks scream bloody murder when it's not easy anymore. Like they're entitled to simple, easy logistics out in the hinterlands.

Get over yourself already. HTFU, lazy ass nullbears.



It's not that it is going to be harder now, it is that it is going to take longer and be far less fun. It is that people don't want to spend all of their game time waiting on timers before they can move. It is that in many areas, it is going to be impossible. There will be more ganks and less good fights because people aren't going to have the mobility to get to the fight. There will be less people in null because the overall trouble of getting supplies there is increasing as exponentially as the jump fatigue timers. This means the opportunity cost of playing in null increases tremendously for what will be less content. Higher opportunity cost means lower quantity (of Null sec content) demanded.

Seriously I know of a dozen or so people already that are going to just stop producing goods, stop helping their alliances logistics, sell their capitals, and just hang out in cruisers in low sec systems skirmishing rather than actually doing anything significant in this game any more. Essentially this takes what veterans have worked so hard to attain and nerfs it straight into the ground. Why should we care anymore?
Protocon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4705 - 2014-10-03 01:37:36 UTC
Findell Ronuken wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
See, when you say things like "compressed goods", you stop sounding smart, and the reason you disagree with us becomes clear: you have no idea what you are talking about.

You can move 620 million units of tritanium in compressed veldspar in a single JF load, assuming 88% refine and 320,000m3 capacity on the JF.

How much stuff do you need to build that requires that much raw material?

Supercaptials. Almost all those minerals are imported from empire along with all the moon minerals that 0.0 export to empire. T2 prices will spike hard.


you may get those minerals and components from hisec, but does that mean you have to? or does that mean your too lazy to get and produce these items in 0.0?
John Python
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4706 - 2014-10-03 01:37:45 UTC
Murauke wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
I'm going to make one post, with the hope that the devs are still reading this thread. I'm gonna say this once.

Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.

More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.

What happened to CCP Seagull saying, "We want to support content enablers!" (those who handle logistics, fuel, etc. that allow others to enjoy their gameplay)? With these changes, you've basically put your arm around them, cuddled them gently, then threw them to the ground and curbstomped them until they had a mouthful of broken teeth and bloody gums.



Here is your content enabler. Form a fleet and escort a freighter.


The fact that you don't understand why that's not tenable long-term is the same reason why I'm not going to argue with you about it.



Peopel did that for YEARS before JF appeared. IT is sustainable. You just need a dozen peopel REALLY logged in and not on jabber waiting a ping. You know.. REALLY playing the game.


You mean treating this game like an army barracks with alarm clock ops?


No he means all the people sitting in station, waiting an hour for fatigue to decay, You know REALLY playing the game.
Jeyz Vega
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4707 - 2014-10-03 01:38:33 UTC
How fked this community is. They are about to give the game the deathstrike, and some fanboys are even trying to support them with that. And the "hey can i have your stuff" comments are just disgusting.

Everyone is doing math, calculating numbers and bla bla. Just keep it simple as that;

It has been that way for 5 or 6 years. There are many years of skill trainning involved on the site of the players. I have skilled in a way so that i can properly into carrie. And now, because some Alliances are too mighty, every player gets fuked? How can you even try to justify that? Are you aware of the fact that Eve WILL die if that happens? Apparently not.

That some Alliances are too strong to maintain a real "gameplay" is not the players fault, its CCP´s. I skilled for a ship, i want that ship. Simple as that. There is still no pro-argument for the whole thing wich can be proven wrong in seconds.

Dont get me wrong, i love EVE, and i DONT wanna quit. But if they crap straight into my face they leave me no other option.
This is no minor change. This is a change you simply dont do in a 11 year old game, and they should know that.

But apperently we are stupid enough to just let them change a major part of the game, and even trying to justify this insolence.

Im fkn sad about this, and i hope Greyscale is ashamed for even considering this crap.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4708 - 2014-10-03 01:38:55 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
So many people are whining about how their logistics will be broken and they will spend even more time doing "boring things" in EVE.

Well guess what, you need to get of your comfy zone!!! You need to think more about what exactly is changing, need for logistics will go back, think LOCALLY! Adopt! Produce locally! Play Eve as it suppose to be played, have fun instead of doing "boring" logistics, no one is forcing you to do logistics.

Thats what this changes are all about, your alliance should be smaller, your logistics will be less!


Exactly. As I said.

All they need to do is ask themselves: Why don't we just have Interbus ship everything people want everywhere in the galaxy instantly with no cost?

They should be able to glean the error of their ways from that answer.

Unless of course their answer is "yeah, why dont we do that?"
In that case they should be shot in the face (in game, of course)

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4709 - 2014-10-03 01:39:33 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Like most of the people in this thread, you are missing the point. It's not about the fleets. It's about the ISK. Having the best military didn't do the Germans any good in WW II, or Napoleon in the wars that bear his name. 95% of the Japanese merchant marine was at the bottom of the Pacific by June of 1944.

These wars were all lost due to the other side's preponderance of wealth and resources.

Players who rely upon heavily interdicted chokepoint systems and wormholes for trade will be easily dominated by those who do not.

Examine your premises.

Isk is not a limiting factor in EVE. No war in EVE between determined opponents has been lost because of isk.

Wars are lost due to failure of will and the collapse of the logistical structure fueling the war. That structure is limited by time and the actual pilots willing to do that work at that level.

Those folks will have a higher burden now.

No amount of isk will buy you the logistical support you want if your pilots won't log in.

You, sir, have zero idea what you're talking about.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Racso Lluecks
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4710 - 2014-10-03 01:39:33 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Degalo wrote:
"Stop playing the game the way you want. Start playing it how I say."

That's what you're telling people to do.

I'm saying that owning your own empire out in the lawless wildlands of space, particularly those lawless wilds of space far from empire, SHOULD NOT BE A CAKEWALK.

If you don't want to go through the effort involved in living out there, don't. Other people will, no worries.

If you don't want to adapt to the changes coming down the pipe, fine. Don't. Other people will, no worries.

What burns me is when folks scream bloody murder when it's not easy anymore. Like they're entitled to simple, easy logistics out in the hinterlands.

Get over yourself already. HTFU, lazy ass nullbears.


Lols

Games are supposed to be fun. Perhaps you've forgotten this?

My fun is pvp, large scale production, or wtf ever I think it is.

Your fun is faction warfare... Good for you... I ain't gonna tell you how to waste your life.

My fun is building capitals. I can still build them with ease, as I do have the infrastructure already. What I won't be able to do, is move them to market, or even sell them after this.

Imagine if they moved faction warfare to low/nullsec... Now you actually have to risk yourself to do what you want. How much fun is this? If you've gotta make 36 jumps to get to your mission? Then 36 back? What if you were doing it in a capital ship? minimum 2 hours.. With billions at risk for those hours?


Please tell me more about how I should play.
Kiryen O'Bannon
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4711 - 2014-10-03 01:39:52 UTC
Degalo wrote:
Veskrashen wrote:
Racso Lluecks wrote:

^^^ Winner....

The force projection effects of this change are good. The logistical effects, are not.

So the idea is, that instead of hotdropping supers.... Supers are going to escort freighters? That's your &*#$(%ing fix?

If you insist on remaining pure PvPers that never mine, never manufacture anything, and depend on Empire for all your needs - then yeah, suck it up buttercup.

Or you could adapt, start up your local industry, plan your routes better, and rely on compressed goods and raw materials instead of finished hulls. But that would require effort and change, which I know some nullbear failliances are unable to muster.

Lazy effing nullbears.


"Stop playing the game the way you want. Start playing it how I say."

That's what you're telling people to do.


It's nce to know hat changes cannot ever be made because you having to adapt is "telling you how to play." I guess EVE is finished now and all CCP has to do is replace server hamsters.

Eternal Father, King of birth, /Who didst create the heaven and earth, /And bid the planets and the sun/ Their own appointed orbits run; /O hear us when we seek thy grace /For those who soar through outer space.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4712 - 2014-10-03 01:40:08 UTC
John Python wrote:


No he means all the people sitting in station, waiting an hour for fatigue to decay, You know REALLY playing the game.


Is your 'warp to gate' button broken?

Want the safety of the next cyno jump without the downside? Wait it out. This isn't rocket surgery.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Rudina
Deaths Consortium
Pandemic Horde
#4713 - 2014-10-03 01:40:09 UTC
The changes are fine in principal the numbers are just to high.

Reduce the range of jump drives to the current Blops/Titan range, increase the reduction in fatigue so it takes 20 minutes to cool down to 0 after one jump not an hour, put a hard cap on the fatigue of somewhere between 24h and a week and give the same reduction bonus as jfs to blops and all subcaps going through bridges/jump bridges.

Seem reasonable enough to everyone?
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4714 - 2014-10-03 01:41:55 UTC
Degalo wrote:

"Stop playing the game the way you want. Start playing it how I say."


Ironically,

this is exactly the b.s. that has been imposed on small gang pvp that necessitates these changes.


The coin has two sides. Blink

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Dreiden Kisada
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4715 - 2014-10-03 01:42:21 UTC
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:

All they need to do is ask themselves: Why don't we just have Interbus ship everything people want everywhere in the galaxy instantly with no cost?

They should be able to glean the error of their ways from that answer.



Because no one wants interbus to ship everything everywhere for no cost. That would be even dumber.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4716 - 2014-10-03 01:42:40 UTC
Rudina wrote:
The changes are fine in principal the numbers are just to high.

Reduce the range of jump drives to the current Blops/Titan range, increase the reduction in fatigue so it takes 20 minutes to cool down to 0 after one jump not an hour, put a hard cap on the fatigue of somewhere between 24h and a week and give the same reduction bonus as jfs to blops and all subcaps going through bridges/jump bridges.

Seem reasonable enough to everyone?


No way. 20 min is way too short.

Hell, I think they should go longer. Make it an even hour.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#4717 - 2014-10-03 01:42:55 UTC
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
Its called DSTs and wormholes..

6 DSTs = 1 JF

Have fun.

+1 this could actually work, and the little buggers can even probe. It would be feasible to round-trip 1 million m3 through the same chain :)
Thedaius
Repercussus
#4718 - 2014-10-03 01:44:02 UTC
Another question,

With Wormholes now becoming more valuable than ever for the purpose of traveling is there an incoming fix for null sec sov structure wormhole generators.

My alliance has run several trails of WH generators and there seems to be little to no value in running them. All of our inquiries in this regard have been met with "working as intended."

If there will be no changes to the WH generator null sov structure; can I have the stats on how it generates WH's? becuase we ran one for three months getting it the Teir 3 at the highest point... most days the system generated 0 WH's...

Would appreciate some feedback on this :)
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4719 - 2014-10-03 01:44:37 UTC
Rarnak Ki wrote:
It's not that it is going to be harder now, it is that it is going to take longer and be far less fun. It is that people don't want to spend all of their game time waiting on timers before they can move. It is that in many areas, it is going to be impossible. There will be more ganks and less good fights because people aren't going to have the mobility to get to the fight. There will be less people in null because the overall trouble of getting supplies there is increasing as exponentially as the jump fatigue timers. This means the opportunity cost of playing in null increases tremendously for what will be less content. Higher opportunity cost means lower quantity (of Null sec content) demanded.

Seriously I know of a dozen or so people already that are going to just stop producing goods, stop helping their alliances logistics, sell their capitals, and just hang out in cruisers in low sec systems skirmishing rather than actually doing anything significant in this game any more. Essentially this takes what veterans have worked so hard to attain and nerfs it straight into the ground. Why should we care anymore?

If folks aren't willing to take on the additional burden, fine. If nullsec corps and alliances move to lowsec because nullsec logistics isn't "fun" anymore, fine. That means there's room for new blood in nullsec - which is kinda the point of these changes.

In addition, since travel to the back end of nowhere is so much harder and takes so much longer, you're more likely to look for fights nearby. Kinda like lowsec. Which means you can probably stay where you live, have similar fights close by, and still get to play with all your shiny toys and have your flag on the map.

Also - staying the F out of nullsec when I came back to EVE was the best decision I ever made. Lowsec is so much better in just about every conceivable way if you don't aspire to being a supercap pilot.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Destitute Tehol Beddict
Binary Trading
#4720 - 2014-10-03 01:44:44 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Destitute Tehol Beddict wrote:
Its called DSTs and wormholes..

6 DSTs = 1 JF

Have fun.

+1 this could actually work, and the little buggers can even probe. It would be feasible to round-trip 1 million m3 through the same chain :)



No fuel costs too... :D

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