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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4181 - 2014-10-02 20:46:41 UTC
Dalia Rensini wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
Suzuka A1 wrote:
[quote=CCP Greyscale]


CCP is now worse than Goonswarm.


A goon bootlicker is saying THAT!? See another indicator CCP is on point with those changes! GOGO CCP!



mhmm... and how is this anyhow a reasonable comment


Seriously, please do understand that making people wait in front of a computer screen for a timer to tick down is not

''Playing a game''

it is torture / job / a chore / cleaning toilets / unpleasant experience

So if that is what you desire for the future of Eve Online please do us all reasonable people a big favour and go **** yourselfie


So how does this differ from, say, research, manufacturing, doing PI, or even waiting for a cyno to go down?
Valterra Craven
#4182 - 2014-10-02 20:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Planned new feature to address new player movement:

For players less than thirty days old, once per player corporation joined, and
For all players, once a year

You may push a button in your corp interface (while a member of a player corp and docked) that:
- Moves your medical clone to a station designated by your corporation, and
- Automatically moves you to your medical clone

Exact method of corporations designating target station still being ironed out, but it will involve at the very least being able to designate a default station for all corp members, and will likely be allowed for *any* station with a corp office, regardless of system sec status.


This seems to us like it solves the "I want to recruit people to nullsec" concern, and also gives non-nullsec recruiters an easier way to get genuinely new players to the right location easily.



Thoughts? Pasting this into the FAQ and also trying to get it into the blog proper.


Greyscale, doubt this will be seen, but since compared to Fozie and Rise you actually do post in your threads and seem to listen to reason, I'm going to give it a shot anyway.

I really don't understand the need for this nerf/mechanic in the first place. I agree with most people that as the years have progressed the sandbox keeps getting smaller and smaller for the "allowed" behavior. I honestly think that this previous mechanic already had some balance to it. Moving by death by clone already has a cost associated with it, clones aren't cheap especially when you get to the 100mil sp range. You do this a couple times in a day and the cost is going to be significantly more than what it would have been in fuel to move a cap. Keep in mind as well that even if you do this, that cap had to get to your staging point somehow. Ships don't magically appear with when you pod jump...

Personally, what I would like to see is that you guys hold off on this change and wait till things settle down a bit to determine if making this change is really even needed. Remember that you guys wanted to up the isotope cost of traveling because you thought pos usage was going to go way down in Cruis. It was mentioned numerous times that you guys should hold off until things settled down on that front before making a change like that. In this case I think you might be trying to change too much too quickly.

Full discloser, I haven't been in null since 2008ish and have never used this "feature" in the first place. I'm curious if you guys have numbers on much its used currently and if part of the reason for this change is that you wanted to get rid of it in spite of the cap movement issue. I will agree with others that one year is way to harsh. Its not like re doing your attribs beneficial. Once a quarter seems like a good middle ground.
Veskrashen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4183 - 2014-10-02 20:47:53 UTC
Rarnak Ki wrote:
Sorry but an alliance who hauls 10+million m3 of stuff to null sec every week isn't going to do it in blockade runners. Half the stuff won't even fit in one. Even if the materials for the t2 ships/mods/ammo were brought instead of the actual items, it would still be the same.

Then think about how this affects small corps running pos based industry in quiet areas of low sec that are not even going to have the man power any more to make the jf jumps required to manage the business.

Maximum fatigue on a JF jump is 1.5. This takes 15 minutes to clear, max. You can still haul 10+million m3 of stuff between null and high every month - it just takes longer to do.

You could decrease the amount of material moved by producing more stuff locally and importing less.

And yes, I realize some stuff can't be produced locally - or at least not easily. This is where you should probably focus your slower jump-based logistical lift capacity.

Besides, I imagine that a BNI freighter convoy from low to null escorted by 1000 Moas / Eagles would be a helluva sight to see.

We Gallente have a saying: "CCP created the Gallente Militia to train the Fighters..."
Mr Evill
Egg Enterprise
#4184 - 2014-10-02 20:48:17 UTC
Lol yet another CCP tactic to nerf capitals even more.

A supercap that is end game for so many off players who have been getting isk togther for years beeing nerfed to hell.

Just how CCP work instead of fixing the problem they nerf supers even more because they all the prolem of 0.0
Endo Saissore
Afterburners of Eve'il Inc.
#4185 - 2014-10-02 20:48:54 UTC
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
Rarnak Ki wrote:
One big problem is that these changes have the unintended consequence of nerfing multiple jumps over short ranges, say back and forth between two nearby systems. That has nothing to do with force projection and yet will still incur the same penalties as jumping all the way across the universe.


Two jumps (back and forth) gives you a few hours of fatigue.

How often do you plan to jump back and forth?


Jump to the target system; kill target; jump out to your staging system.

There you go, two jumps "back and forth". Roll


Jump in, engage your target. Wait five minutes (most of that time should be reduced while you were killing your target)

Jump out with no fatigue.

Problem solved.
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#4186 - 2014-10-02 20:49:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Demonfist
poop. Straight

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
ugly inside
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4187 - 2014-10-02 20:49:07 UTC
my group bases out of a high sec island surrounded by lowsec and we arnt near a trade hub.. we do just fine using t2 indys to run our cargo around.. it has me nerv racked going through systems with a dozen guys that are confirmed wanting to kill us.. but we manage..

i kinda like this new patch.. if you want to feel the real value of your cargo hold.. fly it around in space.. like the guys with plex in their cargo hold did.. 20$-1800$ thrown away while flying around with their cargo.

now dont get me wrong.. we use a rorqual and we dont mine local cuz every1 knows you dont $#!T where you eat unless you a bear. and this change WILL make our ninja mining ops a little more of a hassel.. anyone who catches wind of where we currently mine will know that a rorqual comes and goes and now that means we need to setup a base to hide inside and we gotta bring water to the slaves who row the oars of the jump drive..

but i digress.. in the end a change is coming and we must adapt or see what we built die off.
and by death i mean either we fall back and change the plan.. or we fall outta eve and check out that new game S.C... u know
Dalen Skyard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4188 - 2014-10-02 20:49:26 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Planned new feature to address new player movement:

For players less than thirty days old, once per player corporation joined, and
For all players, once a year

You may push a button in your corp interface (while a member of a player corp and docked) that:
- Moves your medical clone to a station designated by your corporation, and
- Automatically moves you to your medical clone

Exact method of corporations designating target station still being ironed out, but it will involve at the very least being able to designate a default station for all corp members, and will likely be allowed for *any* station with a corp office, regardless of system sec status.


This seems to us like it solves the "I want to recruit people to nullsec" concern, and also gives non-nullsec recruiters an easier way to get genuinely new players to the right location easily.



Thoughts? Pasting this into the FAQ and also trying to get it into the blog proper.


The year is way too long, still. While you're still newish (beyond the 30 days but less than a year), you might switch corps multiple times within that year, looking for a group that fits you and your playstyle.

This should be controlled by a POS module. Install the POS module in a system and you can set your med clone to a station in the same system. Limit it so that each corp can only have one such module and that it requires a director to online. When you leave a non-NPC corp, there's a 24-48 hour cooldown on being able to set your clone to your new corp's home. When the module is installed and onlined, it should have a timer 24-48 hours before anyone can set their clones there. Let's call this thing a DNA Bank.


This has the following benefits:

1. It's player controlled.
2. It has built-in abuse prevention.
3. It creates gameplay. See your enemy go for deployment? Sneak in and put their DNA Bank in reinforce, forcing them to either all jump back and defend it, or be unable to easily return home after deployment. Or, if you're going on deployment, try to set up a POS on the front line, then set a DNA Bank so your corp can easily get their. But, if someone comes in and starts blowing up your stuff, you're not going to be able to easily get back.

Justify it in-world by saying the DNA Bank has a repository of all your corp member's DNA information, everything needed to grow new clones. It interfaces with the clone shop on the station, transmitting what's needed to get a new fresh clone ready for use.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#4189 - 2014-10-02 20:49:28 UTC
Quote:
As a wormhole resident that occasionally pokes his head into Null, I fully support this idea without fully understanding its implications or damage it could have on null-sec life. Blink

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4190 - 2014-10-02 20:49:32 UTC
Valterra Craven wrote:
I really don't understand the need for this nerf/mechanic in the first place. I agree with most people that as the years have progressed the sandbox keeps getting smaller and smaller for the "allowed" behavior. I honestly think that this previous mechanic already had some balance to it. Moving by death by clone already has a cost associated with it, clones aren't cheap especially when you get to the 100mil sp range. You this a couple times in a day and the cost is going to be significantly more than what it would have been in fuel to move a cap.

1) Most people don't have 100m SP and deathclone back and forth.
2) You probably won't ever do this "a couple times a day".
Kun'ii Zenya
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#4191 - 2014-10-02 20:50:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Kun'ii Zenya
Endo Saissore wrote:
Iece Quaan wrote:
If there is an optimal jump frequency that you've calculated as being the best for the fatigue curve..

I don't see why you wouldn't just set a static jump cooldown timer to that value and just call it a day.

Why use this insane system where people can lock their characters for 30 days? As a penalty for playing your game? In what world does this make sense?



If you lock your character for thirty days then you are doing it on purpose or you don't understand how to properly jump. If you wait out the jump fatigue after every single jump then you can do the jumps in the devblog example in under 14 hourssss!!!!!

So again, if you reach the limit then you deserve it


Yes because doing the jumps in the Dev Blog in 14 hours is totally reasonable!!

Roll

Since you'll not get the point here I'll elucidate: We can still put a serious dent into power projection without going to this extreme. The problem with power projection is that people will hot drop from half a galaxy away in a few minutes. You don't need to make jumping several times take days or even weeks to solve that problem.

To be clear for the completely dumb, chances are that 14 hour jump time the previous commenter noted will likely mean you take 2 days to do it. If you have to jump even more, for example you are doing logistics work, it will take several days if you are moving several loads.

Or, as I noted previously big alliances/coaltions will get around the problem by using multiple pilots and station traing the ships with full cargo bays. Smaller alliances and/or groups with newer players...they'll suffer the most.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4192 - 2014-10-02 20:50:52 UTC
Mr Evill wrote:
A supercap that is end game for so many off players who have been getting isk togther for years beeing nerfed to hell.

Looking at supers as "end game" is missing the point of EVE.
Eigenvalue
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#4193 - 2014-10-02 20:51:43 UTC
This change is essentially the same as the real world suddenly deciding to eliminate all transnational shipping routes and rip up all interstates and highways across every country on earth, putting a ban on air travel of any sort, and informing everyone that the goal is to create more localism.

After the global starvation and famine settled down we would find ourselves in a global dark age not seen since the fall of the western roman empire in europe.

It'll have a hugely chilling impact on industry across new eden and create massive market distortions. It'll force everyone to contract their deployments to as close to highsec as they possibly can get and put all major powers concentrated at those staging points into null sec.

It will only allow "neighbor vs neighbor" combat, so better hope your neighbor provides decent combat because moving to a new neighborhood will be practically impossible. It'll prevent escalation and make the metagame lame and uninteresting.

It'll end B-R's and related mega-events in the game that drove so much new player inflow.

All the grrrr goon and grrrr PL and grrr whatever is, I believe, driving this whole "force projection" nerf desire and makes me scratch my head and think ... didn't PL goons and other powers provide a lot of content and story in eve? What's the problem with there existing major powers and minor powers? Why must all powers be equally crappy?

Are we sure we need nuclear level changes immediately? Why aren't the changes starting small and escalating based on evaluation of the impact? Why start top end and readdress after a spring of rage?

Why are we repeating the same sort of mistakes CCP has made time and time again with its poorly thought out and poorly metriced major shakeups?
Shing Thsu
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4194 - 2014-10-02 20:52:15 UTC
sory i didnt get it, how long will i have to wait after 5ly jump to get timers and all back to zero ?

and will these timers be affected by TiDi ?

For all grammar n.a.z.i and likes n.a.z.i one word: nasrať !
Valterra Craven
#4195 - 2014-10-02 20:53:00 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
I really don't understand the need for this nerf/mechanic in the first place. I agree with most people that as the years have progressed the sandbox keeps getting smaller and smaller for the "allowed" behavior. I honestly think that this previous mechanic already had some balance to it. Moving by death by clone already has a cost associated with it, clones aren't cheap especially when you get to the 100mil sp range. You this a couple times in a day and the cost is going to be significantly more than what it would have been in fuel to move a cap.

1) Most people don't have 100m SP and deathclone back and forth.
2) You probably won't ever do this "a couple times a day".


Point 2 seems to be contradicted by point one. You just said deathclone back and forth followed by saying that most people wouldn't do it a couple times a day.

I'm not disagreeing with your points per se though, just that I'm still not seeing a real need to change this "feature"
ugly inside
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4196 - 2014-10-02 20:53:18 UTC
Endo Saissore wrote:
Kun'ii Zenya wrote:
Gospadin wrote:
Rarnak Ki wrote:
One big problem is that these changes have the unintended consequence of nerfing multiple jumps over short ranges, say back and forth between two nearby systems. That has nothing to do with force projection and yet will still incur the same penalties as jumping all the way across the universe.


Two jumps (back and forth) gives you a few hours of fatigue.

How often do you plan to jump back and forth?


Jump to the target system; kill target; jump out to your staging system.

There you go, two jumps "back and forth". Roll


Jump in, engage your target. Wait five minutes (most of that time should be reduced while you were killing your target)

Jump out with no fatigue.

Problem solved.


its so simple.. why didn't i think of this!!
Demonfist
New Eden Capsuleer College
Higher Education
#4197 - 2014-10-02 20:54:03 UTC
DaReaper wrote:
Doral Reinert wrote:
Here is an easier fix for sov IMO. Simply limit the number of systems and alliance can hold .


*face palms*

and here is how I break this idea. I am now mittens, this idea goes into effect, I take each of my alts on however many accounts I have and I make different holding corps. I then make differend alliances, Goonswarm B, C, D etc. I then have some memebrs of goons jump into B, C, D. I use the tools that goons already has in place, make a new 'alliance channel' make it mandatory for every member of any goon alliance into this channel, then I divide up my space among my new alt alliances. Each alt alliance is controlled by the GS high command. They are all Goons, just with different names. I now still hold the exact same amount of space I did, all my alliances are blue to eachother. you fix has changed nothing.

Good job on the crappy idea.

On the BitterVet Scale I rate this post a 6/10. More snide and condescending next time please. Thanks.

eBil Tycoon > we're more like megacapitalistic psychotic space cowboys with raging epeens and 3% real girls.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#4198 - 2014-10-02 20:54:32 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
Falkor1984 wrote:
[IF this is the case, which I don't expect, but let's for arguments sake say it is, CCP should still be able to solve this problem in another way. Adding boredom does nothing good for a game.

Also, when I think further on this matter: this change kind of robs the players of an endgame. I can still remember getting my first bs, capital and supercapital. With this change caps and supercaps become kind of obsolete. What do new players have to look forward too then? Ships that are worthless/no fun to fly?

1. Just because you don't like the solution, doesn't mean it's not a solution to the problem they're looking to solve. None of the changes as written introduce boredom IMO. If you choose to sit on your hands waiting all the time rather than using the mechanics available - you know, gates - then that's your own fault, not CCP's.

2. This is a sandbox. There is no predefined endgame.

3. If you want to fly bigger and bigger ships with shinier and shinier mods (because PURPLE!) then go right ahead. If that's how you define your endgame, there's noone stopping you from doing it. If, on the other hand, you feel that entitles you to mapwide instant gratification, well... that I have an issue with.

4. Supers and Titans will still have a role. Invulnerable hotdropo'clock mobiles won't be it - but they will have a role. Inventive players (which may or may not include you) can probably find all kinds of ways to use them effectively. Like, say, notice they have Clone Vats and SMAs.


The cat pooped in their sandbox.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#4199 - 2014-10-02 20:55:07 UTC
Shing Thsu wrote:
sory i didnt get it, how long will i have to wait after 5ly jump to get timers and all back to zero ?

and will these timers be affected by TiDi ?


Timers won't be affected by TiDi iirc per CCP Nullarbor.

The amount of time to get back down to 0 depends on the ~maths~ and some other factors (i.e. is that 5LY J from a cooldown of 0? etc.).
Dalia Rensini
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#4200 - 2014-10-02 20:56:11 UTC
Dalia Rensini wrote:
Kalissis wrote:
[quote=Suzuka A1][quote=CCP Greyscale]




Seriously, please do understand that making people wait in front of a computer screen for a timer to tick down is not

''Playing a game''

it is torture / job / a chore / cleaning toilets / unpleasant experience

So if that is what you desire for the future of Eve Online please do us all reasonable people a big favour and go **** yourselfie



See its not how you should play EVE, currently thausends of players are waiting in stations spinning ships, just to hear later "we are standing down".

You will not need to wait, take your fleet go out and fight, no need to wait for anything, no "blue balls", no nothing, just good old fun!



Sorry but you are clearly and totally missing the point here mate. Put yourself in the shoes of the line member of any entity in NPC or sov null corp and move around the map say 50 LY safely with your two subbed accounts without wanting to suicide yourself or biomass the **** out of your character.

The purpose / intent of these changes is spot on. Limit power projection.

The idea / method proposed is not.