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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Yosmine en Cedoulain
Barkirk Logistical Operations
#4001 - 2014-10-02 19:19:34 UTC
I think they should instead have jump bridges be exempt from the Jump Fatigue thingy. (And just remove all bridges when playermade gates are a reality).
Have capitals be able to use jump bridges, with no increase of Jump Fatigue, thus you can move your capitals easily within your own area (combined gating + JBing inside alliance territory), while keeping force projection outside of alliance area very low (1-2 cyno jumps before a large cooldown + need to get back cooldown). This i think makes a clear defined warfront right outside your own area, where fights easily happen, and people can easily withdrawn back and forth, and push. (World war 1 trench warfare style).
Arrendis
TK Corp
#4002 - 2014-10-02 19:20:31 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Who exactly is going to us a 'hauler' when you can stuff tings in a carrier that (with proper fit and implants) will travel faster while being able to remote rep and launch legions of fighters and drones?


Yes, who will use a 'hauler' when a carrier can handle almost 1/3 the non-ship, non-ammo cargo of a Deep Space Transport. Why, there'll be no need for jump freighters at all! Just use 38 carriers to move the same amount of goods! Who needs a Providence when you can move the same amount of minerals in only 113 archons!

Brilliant.
Tribalist
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4003 - 2014-10-02 19:20:52 UTC
Here's an Idea

Lets hit the Big Reset Button

All Player and corporate assets are moved back to Empire, High sec and Low Sec Corporations are moved too.
All Sec Status is reset to Zero if Negative
Every Corporation is allowed to select a High Sec System and all corp assets are moved there. Including all POS Structures EVERYTHING!!!
Players in NPC corps are moved to the NPC corp High Sec HQ.
Any Jump Clones are moved to adjacent systems in High Sec.
There is no SOV the map is BLANK!

Then lets start over only with the New Rules proposed by CCP.

It's fair there are no defenders, there are no ship cashe's there are no Jump Bridges.

You want space, you want moons, you want territory.. well go out and get it!

It's the great land grab!
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#4004 - 2014-10-02 19:21:34 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Grookshank wrote:

I am talking about JBs.


EVE online, where your misstake will be painfull. Adapt or die and all that stuff...

So new player rentention my ass?


The guy will quit because he misses ONE fleet op after making misstake?

I am not talking about quitting. I am talking about a very unintuitive mechanic from the point of a new player alliance living in null.


If you travel from system to systems without using gate, you will incure a timer preventing you from doing it again. This timer gets bigger and bigger if you use it many time rapidly. Read section XYZ of our forum/wiki/website for a more complete explanation and the exact math of the system.

What's so hard to understand in that?
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4005 - 2014-10-02 19:21:42 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Is the ability to push your fatigue up to really high numbers a good idea?
Probably not, no. We're looking at just capping fatigue at like 1 month or something.


Senerios:
1) Oh ok, so just unsub the super/titan pilot for a month. Got it.

2) We are at war and I reach my 1 month timer. I can't use my cap and I can't use a titan bridge, nor a black ops bridge...I guess I'll go to high sec and run incursions?

Conclusion:
This is not meaningful gameplay.

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Sygma
Appetite 4 Destruction
#4006 - 2014-10-02 19:22:05 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Sygma wrote:
Balzaamon wrote:
Jump Freighters with 5LY limit? Really?

How someone, who lives in Stain will get to Jita with no docking rights in Catch/Providence???

Simple: he dont get to Jita with 5LY JF.
Oh wait, he can jump to system on route and dont dock, wait to cool down timer on cyno, but wait, theres no cloak on JF...

Also it affects other frontier regions like Period Basis/Feythabolis and many more.

Another knife in the back for smaller alliances without sov, keep it up.


This makes perfect sense. For instance, our corp has lived in Curse since about 2007, as a subcap pvp corp with zero ability to build ships. Basically we import everything from empire by design. By limiting the JF it would really be a giant kick in the sack. By using a 5 AU jump we would double the time it takes to do our Empire runs. It is doable, but would be a giant pain in the ass, it would take time away from pvp and may dissuade some from playing. I can't imagine living in the back end of Stain region where it would take no less than 15 jumps for a single jump freighter. I will be honest and say that I don't have an opinion on PVP capitals because we don't engage in that type of warfare, but damn. You are going to really hurt the independents who despise the sov bs.

We'll just use WHs for logistics. We already use them heavily anyway, so we can easily adapt to not having JFs.



Although I understand your point, our corporation tends to PVP a little more than your alliance, thus we require more ships on hand than an average null bear corp. A wormhole once a week is not a viable solution.
Borachon
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4007 - 2014-10-02 19:23:36 UTC
I've thought about these changes a good bit, and like many in my alliance am both excited and concerned about these changes. A few questions, Greyscale:


  1. What exactly do you see the point/goal being of jump drives in EVE compared to gates and jump bridges? Simply speeding up short-range travel for large ships, while still keeping it time consuming for them to move long distances?
  2. What is the rationale behind the 5LY cap? We have a lot of experience with the 5LY cap - BlackOps ships were buffed from 5LY to their current range of 7.85LY at max skills because, even with gates, 5LY was just too short for a ship expected to jump much given basic eve geography. Perhaps this slightly longer range would be a better max, particularly for non-combat capitals?
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#4008 - 2014-10-02 19:24:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kirasten wrote:
Hahaha ... It took us weeks to get to 100 pages of tears when they changed wormhole jump changes. Your tears are filling up new pages by the minute.

As I have lived in a wormhole my whole eve carrier, I won't pretend to understand how much this will make life more difficult for you on more than on a theoretic level, just like all the null sec alts that posted in our forums didn't understand wormhole jump changes on more than a theoretic level. However, it does seem like this would weaken the defensive ability of the big power blocks. This is a good thing, isn't it?


The large alliance/coalition have the organisation to teach their player to setup jump clone in important station and can setup ship cache. It will be a PITA to do this but their position is easier to defend with this change as long as they do the legwork of having their pilot setup correctly.


Then why do we have over 200 pages of tears if all this changes is adding a little legwork?
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#4009 - 2014-10-02 19:24:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
Sygma wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Sygma wrote:
Balzaamon wrote:
Jump Freighters with 5LY limit? Really?

How someone, who lives in Stain will get to Jita with no docking rights in Catch/Providence???

Simple: he dont get to Jita with 5LY JF.
Oh wait, he can jump to system on route and dont dock, wait to cool down timer on cyno, but wait, theres no cloak on JF...

Also it affects other frontier regions like Period Basis/Feythabolis and many more.

Another knife in the back for smaller alliances without sov, keep it up.


This makes perfect sense. For instance, our corp has lived in Curse since about 2007, as a subcap pvp corp with zero ability to build ships. Basically we import everything from empire by design. By limiting the JF it would really be a giant kick in the sack. By using a 5 AU jump we would double the time it takes to do our Empire runs. It is doable, but would be a giant pain in the ass, it would take time away from pvp and may dissuade some from playing. I can't imagine living in the back end of Stain region where it would take no less than 15 jumps for a single jump freighter. I will be honest and say that I don't have an opinion on PVP capitals because we don't engage in that type of warfare, but damn. You are going to really hurt the independents who despise the sov bs.

We'll just use WHs for logistics. We already use them heavily anyway, so we can easily adapt to not having JFs.



Although I understand your point, our corporation tends to PVP a little more than your alliance, thus we require more ships on hand than an average null bear corp. A wormhole once a week is not a viable solution.

Your just not doing it right. 4DST going through a wh is equivalent to a jump freighter with max cargo expanders. If among your corp you can't find a good WH for getting to empire at least once a day, then you are definitely doing it wrong.

Granted we are not a massive alliance, although we have enough understanding to know it is possible to massively step up our logistic capacity if necessary.
Arrendis
TK Corp
#4010 - 2014-10-02 19:24:39 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
30 days of fatigue means 3 days cooldown, it's not so that 30 days of fatigue means 30 days of no jumping, luckily. It's still harsh, but it's not impossible to deal with.

And it's just a matter of not being dumb and jumping the instant you can, but being slightly more patient.


That's right. And after 3 days, when you jump, now you do have 27d of cooldown, and (assuming a 1LY jump), 54 days of fatigue! WHAT A BARGAIN! After all, if it was a 5LY jump, that's 27d * (1 + distance (5) ) = ONLY 162d of fatigue!

Why, next month when you take that jump, you'll be able to unsub for 5 months, come back, and still not be able to jump.

Never ever ever give yourself more than a few hours of fatigue. Ever. You will be shooting yourself in the head.
Nikita Van-Gogh
Doomheim
#4011 - 2014-10-02 19:24:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikita Van-Gogh
Very large fatigue values will take a loooong time to decay, is this too much?

What about Leaving Commercial ships alone?

And Change only the ships that do damage?

because changing, Commercial flight time will slow down the Content creation....
Slower Movement of War stuff modules ships etc.... in null sec LOL try to make content with that.....

IT looks "interesting" CCP.. but yea Painful for the Indy's Shocked...Bear
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#4012 - 2014-10-02 19:24:54 UTC
.02 more isk to add...

Remember also this is the first set of changes. That means while you are looking at this and going 'omg x..y... and z will be harder" there is a chance, a very good chance, that CCP has changes that will make x..y.. and z.. be trivial after they are all implemented. This was just the easiest change they can do. And after looking at metrics due tot eh 6 week cycle they will have time to modify and adjust or eve roll back if it sucks. The point is to take a chill pill and wait till its on tq before you fully judge if it will work or not.

And this reminds me of the old saying, everyone who for years complained about force projection and wanted ccp to fix it, be careful what you wish for.

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4013 - 2014-10-02 19:25:12 UTC
Suzuka A1 wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Is the ability to push your fatigue up to really high numbers a good idea?
Probably not, no. We're looking at just capping fatigue at like 1 month or something.


Senerios:
1) Oh ok, so just unsub the super/titan pilot for a month. Got it.

2) We are at war and I reach my 1 month timer. I can't use my cap and I can't use a titan bridge, nor a black ops bridge...I guess I'll go to high sec and run incursions?

Conclusion:
This is not meaningful gameplay.

1) You shouldn't reach 30 days of fatigue (and thus get 3 days of "you can't jump" each time you do jump) in the first place. It's just a matter of not jumping around willy nilly anymore.
2) You can still take gates. Or wait 3 days.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4014 - 2014-10-02 19:25:44 UTC
Please CCp take into consideration the average play session of the eve players. Most people playt at most 2 hours per day. That means that they simply cannot arrive home go for a fast black ops roam with their freinds, for example. BEcause within 2 hours they wil NOT be able to make 2 jumps then go back home.


The decay rate of the fatigue must be higher.

Or make the formula to not have that +1, just LY, make the first jumps not so stupidly expensive.


Second, youa re makign battleships EVEN more worthless then they are now. With capitals able to go trough gates, why in hell would I make a fleet of battleships instead of carriers?


If you nee dto allow capitals tough gtes, please consider finding a way to buff battleships so they do nto become even more irrelevant.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#4015 - 2014-10-02 19:26:15 UTC
Borachon wrote:
I've thought about these changes a good bit, and like many in my alliance am both excited and concerned about these changes. A few questions, Greyscale:


  1. What exactly do you see the point/goal being of jump drives in EVE compared to gates and jump bridges? Simply speeding up short-range travel for large ships, while still keeping it time consuming for them to move long distances?
  2. What is the rationale behind the 5LY cap? We have a lot of experience with the 5LY cap - BlackOps ships were buffed from 5LY to their current range of 7.85LY at max skills because, even with gates, 5LY was just too short for a ship expected to jump much given basic eve geography. Perhaps this slightly longer range would be a better max, particularly for non-combat capitals?



Jump drives are now ambush drives.

You stage a few systems out, and when the time comes, you drop the hammer.

You dont do it often, and much thought goes into deciding to use them.

Staging itself is now done way in advance by slowboating.

Seems reasonable.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#4016 - 2014-10-02 19:26:21 UTC
Suzuka A1 wrote:

Senerios:
1) Oh ok, so just unsub the super/titan pilot for a month. Got it.



i'm not one to appeal to ccp's wallet (lol) and i don't think anything i say matter to them. But that's a good point, since people can only use dedicated combat cap pilots in 'spurts' (because when you need to jump you need to jump, screw cooldown), it makes sense to let the sub lapse if you don't have anything else important on that account. An actual financial hit against CCP, though as i think about it I doubt it would be overly noticeable to them.
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4017 - 2014-10-02 19:26:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


EVE online, where your misstake will be painfull. Adapt or die and all that stuff...

So new player rentention my ass?


The guy will quit because he misses ONE fleet op after making misstake?

I am not talking about quitting. I am talking about a very unintuitive mechanic from the point of a new player alliance living in null.


If you travel from system to systems without using gate, you will incure a timer preventing you from doing it again. This timer gets bigger and bigger if you use it many time rapidly. Read section XYZ of our forum/wiki/website for a more complete explanation and the exact math of the system.

What's so hard to understand in that?

The xyz part. I am not able to determine if taking a JB now is a good choice or not. I will have to factor in:
* the fatigue x timer equation (with all its: "but if this is true there is a minimun. etc.")
* when will the next fleet I want to join be?
* will my fleet require me to take a JB back?
* when will I play next (i.e. how much is the fatigue reduced while I am offline)
* what will I want to do, when I log in again?
etc.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4018 - 2014-10-02 19:26:28 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
30 days of fatigue means 3 days cooldown, it's not so that 30 days of fatigue means 30 days of no jumping, luckily. It's still harsh, but it's not impossible to deal with.

And it's just a matter of not being dumb and jumping the instant you can, but being slightly more patient.


That's right. And after 3 days, when you jump, now you do have 27d of cooldown, and (assuming a 1LY jump), 54 days of fatigue! WHAT A BARGAIN! After all, if it was a 5LY jump, that's 27d * (1 + distance (5) ) = ONLY 162d of fatigue!

Why, next month when you take that jump, you'll be able to unsub for 5 months, come back, and still not be able to jump.

Never ever ever give yourself more than a few hours of fatigue. Ever. You will be shooting yourself in the head.

Actually my understanding was that they were going to cap the fatigue at 30 days, so you never went over that.
YanniMorePlz
Debitum Naturae
#4019 - 2014-10-02 19:27:02 UTC
This idea is amazing and is spot on. I would make capital use even more restricted, heck, make warp times for them even longer! Big smile

Please for the love of god CCP follow through with this proposed change. I've been in a capital ship corp since 2009. The proliferation of the big coalitions' spheres of influence has resulted too often our caps being left to gather dust in the hanger. The only times this was not the case is when we joined a block... and not all of them have been fun over the years.

Anyway, my corpmates are excited, I might even be able to get people to re-subscribe with the promise of new content. This is something we have been wanting for years. So please, oh please, do not mess this one up! Do not listen to the man-children crying that you've ruined the game. Make these changes happen!

+1
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4020 - 2014-10-02 19:27:23 UTC
I see you Lucas Quaan of FailheapBlink