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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Capqu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#3341 - 2014-10-02 14:54:38 UTC
Alexis Antollare wrote:
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:


  • The other big issue that i have is the inclusion of jump fatigue on JB's. Not in a "ohh we cannot blop people anymore" issue but for the simple fact that pushing a full fleet through systems, even with the help of JB support incurs its own lag in the form of TiDi. Surely that alone adds artificial constraints to force projection already? why compound the situation?

    • I understand adding jump fatigue to JBs if you're permitting caps to use jbs as not including it means theres an obvious loophole to using your jump drive, but surely the mechanic of jumping through a jump bridge and jumping through a stargate can be separated and iterated upon separately?

    if not then reduce jump fatigue drastically on subcaps (with a scaling up on jump fatigue based on ship hull class). its already been said by devs that the amount of fatigue can be varied on an attribute attached to the ship. and from a lore sense you'd be more fatigued jumping several billion tonnes of mass as opposed to several millions.





    YES! YES YES! YES!

    I love this idea. CCP - if you add in a multiplier to the jump fatigue timer that scales fatigue with the mass of the ship (maybe using a BC as a 1.0 multiplier and scaling up/down from there), this would help me get behind these changes 100%.

    I like where you're going with this. I think you're just about there if you put in a scaling based on jump mass.


    small ships already have the advantage when it comes to fatigue in that they can move faster without jumps

    no need to compound that advantage by lower fatigue as well

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tVbVu9Mkg
    Radd Trigon
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #3342 - 2014-10-02 14:54:55 UTC
    I'm really concerned about the elimination of pod express for getting to places where you don't already have a clone (e.g., newbies joining their corps in 0.0).

    Here's an idea that could address that: allow people to treat jump clones like other assets that can be contracted and shipped from station to station. Then, if you really need to get somewhere and can't get there by travel, have a jump clone shipped there. Viola, problem solved: instant travel nerfed and we still have a way to accomplish something close to the same thing, albeit with a little advanced planning.

    By the way, if this was suggested in one of the other 167 pages of posts already, I apologize for repeating.
    Raelaem Eudain
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #3343 - 2014-10-02 14:55:10 UTC
    Rroff wrote:
    Raelaem Eudain wrote:
    WTB Triage Carrier's!!!

    This change will force big alliances with sov to think twice before hot dropping 20 caps for a hurricane kill, or titan bridging 100 people on the the little cute merlin.

    Think what this will do for the games economy... People will want more caps then they all ready have, the little guys (stop looking at me) can assist their 15 man BS Fleet with a triage knowing that any significant threat will be within 5 LY

    Rooks and Kings can make more video's!!!! Though I did like the pipe-bomb, i liked your triage video more.

    This will also force pilots and fleets that want to get to a destination consider using BS fleets again.

    More caps will be wanted = economy boost
    More pilots wanting caps due to safer conditions (ME!!!) = economy boost
    More subcap fleets = economy boost

    not to mention all the small alliances that want their own space

    Now I read a lot of the tears so far. So u want to rat in Nyx's, and U want this and u want that. We all see how dead 0.0 is getting. People are just sitting in belts and grinding that isk. While good for your wallet, not good for economy.

    Sounds like you can still do it but remember the days when subcaps meant "OH CRAP THESE GUYS MEAN SERIOUZ BISNEZ"

    Means you will have to plan carefully and and use your past exp to keep your elite status of capital warfare, if you don't or fail to live up to your reputation then you are only proving that you abused something in the game that became easy.

    Look at eve, everything about it is supposed to be hard, the learning curve is only for the brave of us to stick with it. If you have all ready invested this much time in the game, you will find new ways to dominate in your sov wars. I'm confident in that.

    thx for reading my crap, sorry for the horrible grammar,
    and I was serious, I really want to buy some triage carriers cuz of this now.


    See post below yours - subcap stuff won't increase - the minimum requirement to be relevant will be the ability to fly a carrier in 200+ man roving gangs that can RF structures in seconds with little effort or consideration (no siege timers) - a 100 man thanny fleet can put out over 100K dps with sentries let alone fighters (upto ~330K dps against stuff you can apply fighter damage to) and have little fear of super/titan drops as they'd have plenty of heads up.


    lol structures dps sure I agree. But what about all those pilots that need killing, surely we are not going to wait minutes and minutes to cap drop them like we have been, will we? No I suspect people will do more subcap roaming fleets, and I also suspect lots of killmails.

    All in all this will force people to do other things to kill their enemy, and capital escalations will have to be carefully laid out, if not then lots of tears will come from the unprepared and those individuals are not keen enough will not keep their space
    Dream Five
    Renegade Pleasure Androids
    #3344 - 2014-10-02 14:55:58 UTC
    I'm envisioning a picture of a Nomad sitting stuck in Great Wildlands faRtigued on a toiled right now.
    Ynef
    Skill Extraction Slavery
    #3345 - 2014-10-02 14:56:34 UTC
    I really don't know this, cause I don't know how it works.

    What would be the effect of a smart-bombing titan / super on a gate?
    Varos Kang
    Conquering Darkness
    #3346 - 2014-10-02 14:57:20 UTC
    Baali Tekitsu wrote:
    Varos Kang wrote:
    So here's something I think nobody has talked about yet. It's not huge, but it's an interesting consequence of the math they are using for this. If a pilot lets their fatigue value drop to 1 (not zero) it will no longer have an effect on their new fatigue value. Further, if it is less than 1 but over zero, it will actually make the new timer shorter than it would otherwise be. I'm assuming CCP has thought of this already and made it not happen, but I haven't found anything in writing about it.

    An example:

    Varos Kang jumps his non-existent carrier and accrues some fatigue. Nobody cares how much because that's not the purpose of the example. He waits until it is sitting at 0.2. He then makes another 5LY jump, bringing his new fatigue value to

    0.2(1+5) = 1.2

    Varos is very happy, because this is much less than the minimum he would have gotten if his fatigue was decayed to zero. He is also very happy because he somehow made a jump to another system without being able to use any jump-capable ship. :)

    Seriously though, if this loophole in the math isn't already fixed, it needs to be. If I'm somehow missing something here, sorry to have wasted your time. Carry on as if you were normal.


    If you have no fatigue you gain a minimum fatigue of 1+jump distance, that was explained in the dev blog.



    Oops, you're right. My bad. Ignore me.
    Dalia Rensini
    Deep Core Mining Inc.
    Caldari State
    #3347 - 2014-10-02 14:57:24 UTC
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rDMQpeKE-HzGKmFRTR69HJCk4McHyHz020Qs4Rgg414/htmlview?sle=true#gid=0

    LOL

    someone already made a ''Jump Fatique Calculator''

    Another feature added that requires Spreadsheets Online...


    On supers taking gates:
    Noone of sane mind is going to warp a supercarrier to a gate and jump.
    C'mon CCP surely we can find a better solution to power projection than making all capital alt characters pointless?
    And if not, at least give us the ability to use those pilots stuck in the coffin of a super or titan!!!
    Make them dockable in some type of a station? Make a new station upgrade that allows outposts to provide super/titan docking?
    Some solution that is worth keeping your 100m SP super / titan character account subscribed?
    ugly inside
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #3348 - 2014-10-02 14:58:01 UTC
    Frostys Virpio wrote:
    ugly inside wrote:
    Min Mar wrote:
    Dave Kitaro wrote:
    Someone explain how 'jump fatigue' works according to the laws of physics in New Eden? Like, what are the actual mechanics of it?


    It's like truck driving: The law says you have to stop and take naps. Same principle applied to internet spaceships. It's so logical, I don't see why they didn't do it sooner....


    i guess you could say its LOGIcal to be in the business of LOGIstics?


    The RL truckers dealing with those laws aren't doing logistic work? You will either spread the load more onto more player to do logistic work or lose player because you are starving at the end of a small logistical chain until your current setup can keep up. The people sharing the load the best will be able to keep themself at a higher level than those who rely on too few dudes.



    if we are to compare this to REAL LIFE truckers.. and warping to star gates = truck driving.. whats jump drive = to truck driving? remember jump drives are instant traveling.
    Aranin
    Viziam
    Amarr Empire
    #3349 - 2014-10-02 14:58:08 UTC
    BRAVO CCP - EXCELLENT - just way to late.


    It is painfully obvious that so many of you guys never played eve pre 2007 and have no concept of what this game was really like. even with the changes its still much easier post these changes than it ever used to be.

    THIS IS NEEDED. if you have only ever known the blue donut you honestly have no right to comment. This is the only way to remedy the current nullsec shitheap of carbears and RMTers.

    Capital battles are fun sure, but the real fun in this game comes from conflict. conflict drives industry, it drives politics and it provides enjoyment and purpose. This needs to be accessible and right now if your not PL/N3 or CFC you cannot drop caps - its rediculous. This change just means that you need to be more self sufficient (oh god i have to work with my corp and provide for myself!? and protect myself?! oh god).

    Why does a game have to be easy. a challenge is good. This change will make the game far more fun again, get your head out of the sand and realise that this change enables and drives pvp and conflict the core mechanic of enjoyable game play.
    Serendipity Lost
    Repo Industries
    #3350 - 2014-10-02 14:58:41 UTC
    So phase one is underway. Tear level is pretty high but stabalizing. If you haven't accepted that these changes are set in stone, feel free to visit the mass/jump range threads in the wh forum. You guys need to come to terms with the new mechanics and adapt. They are here to stay.

    I can't wait for phase 2. What is phase 2 you ask?? They're going after the ability to fund massive SRP. The coffers will be drained over time never to be full again. If you haven't bought a set of those sexy arm floaty things, get them quick. The next wave of tears is going to be epic.

    (What you mean the alliance isn't replacing ALL my losses?? Screw them, I'm not slow boating from A to B just to lose a ship that won't be replaced for their cause.... I'm starting my own alliance!)


    Hahahahahaa
    LUMINOUS SPIRIT
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #3351 - 2014-10-02 15:00:28 UTC
    Ynef wrote:
    I really don't know this, cause I don't know how it works.

    What would be the effect of a smart-bombing titan / super on a gate?



    exactly the same as a smartbombing rokh.

    no super-large smartbombs you see.
    Retar Aveymone
    GoonWaffe
    Goonswarm Federation
    #3352 - 2014-10-02 15:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
    This is making me go even more :wtf: over the jump freighter changes:

    Quote:
    TMC: Does CCP consider it as important that Empire be more "distant" from nullsec space as they do that nullsec should be more difficult to traverse? How does CCP see this interacting with recent developments that makes nullsec less dependent upon highsec industry?

    CCP Greyscale: Not especially, no. Obviously the effect here is hugely dependent on how far out into null you live, but we aren’t explicitly trying to lengthen the Jita<->2R-CRW distance. We do want nullsec to be more self-sufficient in industrial terms, but that’s a longer-term project that only somewhat overlaps with the changes we’re making here.


    http://themittani.com/features/ccp-greyscale-long-distance-travel-changes

    I mean, you've just changed it from 1 midpoint to 4, a 250% increase in effective 'distance' (time spent traveling) because of the jump freighter range nerf - and that is virtually the only effect of the jump range nerf (the other being making certain NPC sov absolutely inaccessible without midpointing in sov space). How on earth does this makes sense if your goal wasn't to lengthen the distance?
    Dream Five
    Renegade Pleasure Androids
    #3353 - 2014-10-02 15:02:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dream Five
    Aranin wrote:
    BRAVO CCP - EXCELLENT - just way to late.


    It is painfully obvious that so many of you guys never played eve pre 2007 and have no concept of what this game was really like. even with the changes its still much easier post these changes than it ever used to be.

    THIS IS NEEDED. if you have only ever known the blue donut you honestly have no right to comment. This is the only way to remedy the current nullsec shitheap of carbears and RMTers.

    Capital battles are fun sure, but the real fun in this game comes from conflict. conflict drives industry, it drives politics and it provides enjoyment and purpose. This needs to be accessible and right now if your not PL/N3 or CFC you cannot drop caps - its rediculous. This change just means that you need to be more self sufficient (oh god i have to work with my corp and provide for myself!? and protect myself?! oh god).

    Why does a game have to be easy. a challenge is good. This change will make the game far more fun again, get your head out of the sand and realise that this change enables and drives pvp and conflict the core mechanic of enjoyable game play.



    I think core of the stagnation issue is not power projection - it's that EVE is unbridled capitalism - the rich will just be getting richer :) Regardless of what rules you try to make.. anything short of redistribution of capital, powers that be will remain powers that be. Admittedly anything that clamps the multiplicative curve might help with redistribution of relative capital.
    350125GO
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #3354 - 2014-10-02 15:02:39 UTC
    Now that I'm finished with the schadenfreude over all the tears I have to say I love these changes.

    It's amazing that carrier pilots think their ships should be flown without escorts. They're carriers! They're supposed to have support fleets. If you don't want to risk your ship flying, then keep it docked, don't log in, or get a damn escort.

    If sov space isn't "worth" holding, then don't hold it. There are small corps/alliances that would love to have your "worthless" null space.

    Oh, and please, please, please use wormholes to move your caps from one system to another.

    You're young, you'll adjust. I'm old, I'll get used to it.
    Heavypredator Singh
    TEMPLAR.
    The Initiative.
    #3355 - 2014-10-02 15:02:59 UTC
    Looking forward to killing JF of cfc - so far from pos, not able to jump again, located in predictable systems due to 5ly range. It should be fun considering that it is so much job to do logi they will jump constantly.

    Going to buy another container for tears..
    John McCreedy
    Eve Defence Force
    #3356 - 2014-10-02 15:04:06 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:

    Rutger Centemus wrote:
    Lemme guess - you expect people to web supers into warp...?


    I expect people to get an escort.


    Quite frankly you're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think that's the end result of your changes. Pilots will simply adjust and factor in travel time. It may slow down the movement of them, it may stop people rushing across half of Eve to get in on a Super Cap fight, but it won't result in people using gates with escorts.

    13 years and counting. Eve Defence Force is recruiting.
    Zifrian
    The Frog Pond
    Ribbit.
    #3357 - 2014-10-02 15:04:15 UTC
    After reading a lot of this and elsewhere, I don't see why jump freighters or rorquals should be affected by this in any way. That in itself should shave off most of the hate IMO.

    Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

    Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
    Joseph Adamamada
    Perkone
    Caldari State
    #3358 - 2014-10-02 15:04:56 UTC
    I'm all for nerfing force projection of combat caps, but not so much for logistics/trade.

    How about leveling the playing field everywhere in New Eden? Empire and wormhole space should not be excluded from a similar logistic nightmare that's going to hit null come November. Make Jita, Amarr, Hek and all the other hubs in New Eden seem that much further away. Give all haulers everywhere jump fatigue when taking gates/whs. Everyone should feel the pain of moving vast quantities of stuff anywhere.
    olan2005
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #3359 - 2014-10-02 15:05:31 UTC
    dont like repeating myself much so a few key points

    1 - logistics in null sec is difficult so would you consider giving the jump freighter a range bonus in order to negate the effect of this change on what is a primary logistics ship not combat and therefore has not power projection capacity . Same for the Rorqual.

    2 - Add more low ends especially Mexallon and Isogen to null sec as right now most low ends especially those to must be imported damaging self sufficiency in null sec.

    3 - in order to allow every to ship build equally and become self sufficient change the moon situation to allow it to spawn everywhere using the same rarity scale as you do for regular minerals. This would enable universal ship building

    4 - TO SUMMARIZE UNLESS Self sufficiency is addressed promptly youre going to kill null sec industry . and make what is a minority of the population for worse off .

    Nikki Estemaire
    Chesterton Quotations Ltd
    #3360 - 2014-10-02 15:05:42 UTC
    I like this. How about allow for easy moving of subcaps, perhaps by having JFs and normal (and maybe nerfed) carriers keep the range? Make carriers weaker in DPS and logi and let them carry more assembled subcaps and cargo.

    The fleet members still have to fly out to deployment in convoys, creating more fights as well.