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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Selexid
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2881 - 2014-10-02 09:20:13 UTC
Rockstede wrote:

TL;DR: I would like the 3 million or so skillpoints back that were invested on the understanding that my characters would benefit from them.



Or you you get another JF alt to cover the extra jump or *gasp* a friend to help you out.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#2882 - 2014-10-02 09:21:47 UTC
Ezio Dicostanzo wrote:
CCP I'm 100% with you on this one!
Don't backdown, DO IT!!

now we clearly understand what this "null deal" was all about, and why opposing blocks were all standing behind Mittani's "listen to us cause we're the boss" bullsh*t. Dont listen to them, and dont add more NPC systems/stations !!

btw after reading the null deal and now this dev blog, isn't it obvious that certain CSM members are breaking the NDA and letting Mittani &friends know what you are planning ahead?
Just FYI, the dev blog also states that the sov changes are likely to be occupancy based - exactly what the null deal calls for.

And if you were even remotely awake during fanfest you'd know that power projection changes were very much on the cards. I'm honestly surprised it's taken this long for them to come up. So your tinfoil hat theories that the CSM are breaching the NDA are unfounded.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Jessica Danikov
Network Danikov
#2883 - 2014-10-02 09:22:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Jessica Danikov
Firstly, CCP Greyscale, hope I didn't put any words in your mouth: http://themittani.com/features/ccp-greyscale-long-distance-travel-changes

All that considered:

+1 to a fatigue cap and a cooldown cap, allowing ludicrous values of fatigue is silly and overly punitive. Whether that's 24 hours or a week, it should be reasonable enough to run up and get rid of within sane time-frames.

Practically speaking, over long distances it is optimal to cover 5LY/hr, waiting for fatigue to drain to prevent multiplication. However, sometimes those distances are incurred with short-range back and forth, which seems like an unfair nerf to bulk movement over short distances (already done at the cost of skill investment and a 6b ISK + hull + fuel costs). Maybe there needs to be some kind of home mechanic- say, proximity to your medical clone location, that scales back fatigue within proximity(size of a region, perhaps).

I think cyno-jammers and their utility are being radically overlooked or brushed aside within the context of these changes. Effectively, systems with jammers have gone from being 100% proofed against capitals without an assault on the jammer itself by virtue of an always-on POS module, to vulnerable to assault by gate(s) (of which there may be many in the system) which, in order to be practically defended, must be manned at all times. If this really is the change you wish to achieve, I think people want to hear that this has been explicitly thought out and that the end result, which will likely be one of two extremes- not bothering to use cyno-jammers, or needing to use them everywhere- is intended and desired, rather than hand-waved away as a natural side-effect.

Another concern is around the accrual of fatigue on smaller hulls using bridges and the like. You stated that the figures you arrived at were based on average capital traversal of gates, but the amount of fatigue incurred on ALL hulls is the same. This makes portalling and bridges increasingly punitive for smaller and smaller hulls, to the point they won't bother. Surely fatigue should be proportional to warp speed (which makes hyperspatial rigs a 'fatigue saving' choice), allowing smaller ships to jump around almost as freely as they warp?

Admittedly, yes, this makes jump bridge networks more powerful for retaining pilot mobility within held coalition space (rather than significantly useless for long distance travel) and may encourage more ship caching, but that's still achieved with interceptors anyway.
Selexid
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2884 - 2014-10-02 09:22:15 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Selexid wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
I'm very much afraid that if these changes go through as presented here the game will stagnate because it will be too slow. .


This. Some people like the larger scale battles, in fact the only times EVE has hit the headlines and brought in more subcribers than CCP's marketing department ever has is the big fights. With these changes, these sorts of battles will likely never happen again. Those with local supercap dominance will always have a trump card and no one will be able to escalate.

It begs the question of why can't CCP see what the real problem here is: Supercaps and not Carriers, Dreads, JF's or anything else with a jump drive.


Dude you exhale bias... Only SC are a prob? cause the other blob has more?


But the blob will still exist.

One of the biggest reason why we have the Capital Blob was because it is only counter we have to the subcap blob.

Of course with these changes there will now be no counter to the subcap blobs.



Well the subcap blobs will exist, but then again wont be very fun to maintain them. Plus wont be able to be there for every timer and his grandmother on the other side of the galaxy.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2885 - 2014-10-02 09:23:25 UTC
Since I see a lot of ragequitting posts, I'd just like to sign up for a cheap moros or two. If someone is willing to offer buy 2 get 1 free, that would be nice too.

On a more serious note, I honestly think that ranges could be worked on a little bit, in particular JF and Rorq. Moving stuff around is tedious per se and limiting options for in-house logistics for smaller entities (which this does) isn't something I think we all need since logistics are the backbone of any type of PVP activity. I'd say, leave ranges as they are with fatigue from those jumps also reduced a bit in comparison to other types of caps. Furhermore, range on dreads and carriers could be a tiny bit better (say 7-8ly with JDC 5) and I really don't think that blops need to be nerfed at all (or at least not to a degree they were).

Also, as folks have also noted - the proposal for more npc areas in null letter is either a very strange coincidence or a clear sign of leaking info from CSM (which could never happen, right?). Not that it would be bad to have more pirate space to do a bit of missioning.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2886 - 2014-10-02 09:23:58 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Selexid wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
I'm very much afraid that if these changes go through as presented here the game will stagnate because it will be too slow. .


This. Some people like the larger scale battles, in fact the only times EVE has hit the headlines and brought in more subcribers than CCP's marketing department ever has is the big fights. With these changes, these sorts of battles will likely never happen again. Those with local supercap dominance will always have a trump card and no one will be able to escalate.

It begs the question of why can't CCP see what the real problem here is: Supercaps and not Carriers, Dreads, JF's or anything else with a jump drive.


Dude you exhale bias... Only SC are a prob? cause the other blob has more?


But the blob will still exist.

One of the biggest reason why we have the Capital Blob was because it is only counter we have to the subcap blob.

Of course with these changes there will now be no counter to the subcap blobs.

That'll be fixed if CCP redesign the sov system as well, so you really can't realistically shove 4k people into a single system and expect the rest of your space to Not Be On Fire (tm). Whether CCP is going to do this, or even if they CAN do this, now that's a different matter, but I'm cautiously optimistic. Them going for this kind of dramatic change gives me hope they're ready to consider other dramatic changes which'll make EVE a worthwhile game to play again, as opposed to what it's been the last year or so (or more, really).
Prince Kobol
#2887 - 2014-10-02 09:24:09 UTC
Selexid wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Selexid wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
I'm very much afraid that if these changes go through as presented here the game will stagnate because it will be too slow. .


This. Some people like the larger scale battles, in fact the only times EVE has hit the headlines and brought in more subcribers than CCP's marketing department ever has is the big fights. With these changes, these sorts of battles will likely never happen again. Those with local supercap dominance will always have a trump card and no one will be able to escalate.

It begs the question of why can't CCP see what the real problem here is: Supercaps and not Carriers, Dreads, JF's or anything else with a jump drive.


Dude you exhale bias... Only SC are a prob? cause the other blob has more?


But the blob will still exist.

One of the biggest reason why we have the Capital Blob was because it is only counter we have to the subcap blob.

Of course with these changes there will now be no counter to the subcap blobs.



Well the subcap blobs will exist, but then again wont be very fun to maintain them. Plus wont be able to be there for every timer and his grandmother on the other side of the galaxy.


Timers.. how are you going to attack somebodies system which is cyno jammed and defended with Capitals with your small subcap fleet?
Prince Kobol
#2888 - 2014-10-02 09:25:17 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Selexid wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Valleria Darkmoon wrote:
I'm very much afraid that if these changes go through as presented here the game will stagnate because it will be too slow. .


This. Some people like the larger scale battles, in fact the only times EVE has hit the headlines and brought in more subcribers than CCP's marketing department ever has is the big fights. With these changes, these sorts of battles will likely never happen again. Those with local supercap dominance will always have a trump card and no one will be able to escalate.

It begs the question of why can't CCP see what the real problem here is: Supercaps and not Carriers, Dreads, JF's or anything else with a jump drive.


Dude you exhale bias... Only SC are a prob? cause the other blob has more?


But the blob will still exist.

One of the biggest reason why we have the Capital Blob was because it is only counter we have to the subcap blob.

Of course with these changes there will now be no counter to the subcap blobs.

That'll be fixed if CCP redesign the sov system as well, so you really can't realistically shove 4k people into a single system and expect the rest of your space to Not Be On Fire (tm). Whether CCP is going to do this, or even if they CAN do this, now that's a different matter, but I'm cautiously optimistic. Them going for this kind of dramatic change gives me hope they're ready to consider other dramatic changes which'll make EVE a worthwhile game to play again, as opposed to what it's been the last year or so (or more, really).


It depends on what they do, you have to remember that most systems will be defended with capitals now. So how is a small gang going to attack anything that is well defended with caps?
Papa Django
Materials Harvesting Kombinat
#2889 - 2014-10-02 09:25:43 UTC
Very nice changes for nullsec :)

Follow theses rules and it will be nice :

1/ Everything in nullsec should be destroyable (including stations)
2/ A big entity should be slow and very hard to maintain

So theses changes are a good start.

Next : Delete ALL npc stations are make them destroyable.
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#2890 - 2014-10-02 09:25:44 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

Timers.. how are you going to attack somebodies system which is cyno jammed and defended with Capitals with your small subcap fleet?


With capitals

(read the devblog)

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2891 - 2014-10-02 09:26:25 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ezio Dicostanzo wrote:
CCP I'm 100% with you on this one!
Don't backdown, DO IT!!

now we clearly understand what this "null deal" was all about, and why opposing blocks were all standing behind Mittani's "listen to us cause we're the boss" bullsh*t. Dont listen to them, and dont add more NPC systems/stations !!

btw after reading the null deal and now this dev blog, isn't it obvious that certain CSM members are breaking the NDA and letting Mittani &friends know what you are planning ahead?
Just FYI, the dev blog also states that the sov changes are likely to be occupancy based - exactly what the null deal calls for.

And if you were even remotely awake during fanfest you'd know that power projection changes were very much on the cards. I'm honestly surprised it's taken this long for them to come up. So your tinfoil hat theories that the CSM are breaching the NDA are unfounded.

Honestly I would've thought the sov system changes would suffice, and that the "force projection" change is shaking the stick from the wrong end, but I'm interested to see how the meta'll change to match the new rules, and just how punitive the rules WILL be.
ToXicPaIN
Xynodyne
The Initiative.
#2892 - 2014-10-02 09:27:24 UTC
Ivory Kantenu wrote:
I've gone ahead and let these proposed changes sink in for awhile. I didn't want to make the big Oh man CCP you done goofed we're all quitting post, because truth be told, it's already been done a million times in this thread and played out to death.

In my honest opinion, these changes are particularly ground shattering to some, and a breath of fresh air to others. I can respect that. Even as a part of everyone's 'Big Blue Donut', we all agreed that power projection was far too strong, and needed to be brought back down a little. However, I do wholeheartedly believe that most of these changes are a step far, far into the wrong direction. I'm going to use quotes from your Devblog, because it will be easier to follow. I won't be quoting anyone in this thread, and likely not partaking in it any further. I just wish to speak my mind, make some counter points, and move to the back, to see if you do truly value your customers input. So, here goes.

We are going to allow capital ships to use gates in lowsec/nullsec

This is something that's been presented time and time again, and honestly, I'm almost surprised it's taken this long to come about. Am I fan of this? Not personally. Would I ever use this? Likely not, unless I'm out of fuel, or going an extremely long distance with a near bloc level or higher fleet in tow. However, a change like this does lead to potential content generation, and the idea of a non-ironic gate jumping bait Carrier does make me smile ear to ear. I'm interested to see where people may take this in the future.

and we are aiming to make gate-to-gate travel take less time than jump travel over distances of more than ~20 LY. We've run simulations for capital ships travelling between arbitrary pairs of systems, and settled on the target movement speed of no less than 3 minutes per lightyear for travel over 20 LY. This should allow us to bring about the main change we want to see – less sustained use of jump travel – while still preserving its value for short bursts of movement.

Again, not a giant fan of this. The Warp Speed changes that recently came about helped and hindered in many ways, but the warp acceleration or a Capital (let alone a Supercapital) is astoundingly slow. Unless you are prepared to somehow give them quicker to warp speed times (not alignment, don't confuse this), I can't see anything doing anything shy of slow travel, waiting for timers.

The primary change is the addition of a new mechanic, called "jump fatigue".


This is where I hit my brakes, and instantly go 'Why?'. If you are going to go ahead and put in a cooldown on Jump Drives themselves, then you have already greatly slowed down force projection. Any bloc that needs to move somewhere in a hurry will always do it over the greatest distance possible that will still provide safe passage. You hit the nail on the head with the Jump Drive cooldown, but the fatigue is equivalent to taking the clawfoot and digging the nail back out again. It's an un-needed mechanic based on the fact that you're going to even further discourage Nullsec even harder. A change like this will amount to people literally needing to take weeks at a time to move in for a deployment from a long distance, and on top of that, it makes them EASIER to camp in somewhere, as all you need to do is camp them in an NPC Midpoint, discourage them from continuing the rest of the trip, and they end up turning back around. You're ENCOURAGING people to not want to deploy by making things into a logistical headache for any force, be it large or small. Small guerrilla warfare is sadly NOT the lifeblood of Null, and this isn't going to help the issue.

In addition, the addition to this to Jump Bridges is just silly. You're basically making it so anything with multiple, large regions will have to wait to defend their space in a hurry? Completely un-needed. I would more-so welcome a change to Jump Bridges requiring a lot more fuel and letting Caps through them sooner than I ever would 'Fatigue'.

Almost all jump-capable ships will have their range reduced to 5 LY after skills; this is both necessary to allow us to not penalize short-distance travel in a cleaner way, and also as a goal in and of itself to constrain the distance covered in single hops. . (Note that jump portal range on a ship is always the same as its own jump drive range.)

This is incredibly overkill. Not only are you making it much longer to travel anywhere, but now you're forcing things to go even slower. Not only is Combat insanely ineffective, Logistics have been utterly crippled. A change like this one needs to be thoroughly checked over before you just put in a flat number and say 'Good enough, let's see how it goes.'. Something along the lines of a 45% Reduction in overall range would go a lot further than 'Everyone goes this far, and that's it'. Titan Bridging has become near worthless, and owning the ships is now arguably now a novelty. I'm not saying 'Reimburse all of us for our Titans / Supers', but I have to question the point in owning them at this point in the longrun.

You will only be able to move your medical clone to the station you are currently docked at.

This will punish newcomers far more than vets, but it's been beaten to death in this thread so I feel no need to comment.

Hitpoints and resistances on various sovereignty-related structures will be revisited, to balance out the reduced ability to use Supercarriers against them.


Long overdue.

We will be releasing a collection of other smaller changes...These include a rebalance of starbase weapons, a rebalance of stealth bombers and heavy interdictors, enabling of lowsec doomsdays, and changes to interdictor bubble mechanics.

Interested to see these.

Cont...



+1
Prince Kobol
#2893 - 2014-10-02 09:27:35 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Timers.. how are you going to attack somebodies system which is cyno jammed and defended with Capitals with your small subcap fleet?


With capitals

(read the devblog)



In other words you have no idea
School Nickname Worldmonkey
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2894 - 2014-10-02 09:29:28 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
What's a factorial?
TheFairyClinkerBell
Zero Gravity Geology
#2895 - 2014-10-02 09:29:46 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Timers.. how are you going to attack somebodies system which is cyno jammed and defended with Capitals with your small subcap fleet?


With capitals

(read the devblog)



In other words you have no idea


I think they are referring to the changes which would allow capitals to use gates.

Cyno jammed system would be no issue, you just jump through both sub-capitals and capitals via your chosen gate to a next door system.
Amhra Rho
Accujac Elimination
#2896 - 2014-10-02 09:29:49 UTC
I want to consider this more, but first impressions count, and my first impression is that this is an awkward and very artificial solution to the problem. Not only that, but it's a solution that relies on one of the least desirable mechanics in the game - any game - waiting out a damm timer. You sit down to game after a hard day, and you find that you've earned yourself wait time. Wonderfknful . . .

Surely there has at to be a better way. Know that I would be one of those who might benefit most by what CCP is trying to achieve here, but I'm convinced that this isn't that solution.

There's real reasons why your Eve character doesn't do /dance.

Selexid
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2897 - 2014-10-02 09:30:12 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Timers.. how are you going to attack somebodies system which is cyno jammed and defended with Capitals with your small subcap fleet?


With capitals

(read the devblog)



Yep you can just take the last gate(s) to the enemy. Yes every ship in-game can use null and low sec gates now.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2898 - 2014-10-02 09:30:28 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
But the blob will still exist.

One of the biggest reason why we have the Capital Blob was because it is only counter we have to the subcap blob.

Of course with these changes there will now be no counter to the subcap blobs.

That'll be fixed if CCP redesign the sov system as well, so you really can't realistically shove 4k people into a single system and expect the rest of your space to Not Be On Fire (tm). Whether CCP is going to do this, or even if they CAN do this, now that's a different matter, but I'm cautiously optimistic. Them going for this kind of dramatic change gives me hope they're ready to consider other dramatic changes which'll make EVE a worthwhile game to play again, as opposed to what it's been the last year or so (or more, really).


It depends on what they do, you have to remember that most systems will be defended with capitals now. So how is a small gang going to attack anything that is well defended with caps?

If we're looking at an occupancy-dependent sov system, then caps might not even factor into it to the extent it does now. I'm still going to mark myself down for being cautiously optimistic for this change, as long as it doesn't get TOO restrictive/punitive. JFs, freighters etc which are non-offensive in nature I think should probably be excluded from JB/titan fatigue, but we'll see what actually happens, if nullsec'll prove selfsufficient after this change or if we'll unironically get back to (sigh) freighter convoys again.
Geanos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2899 - 2014-10-02 09:31:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Geanos
Good changes CCP, you outsmarted the CSM sock puppets Big smile. The hypocrisy of the BotLRD is amazing. Cry me a river, we're finally going back playing EVE Online instead of Boredom Online Big smile .
You crybabies will not leave the game and if you do your place will be taken by resubs of those that left the game because of the boredom (cause you know, you made the game boring for everybody) and the newbros.
The tears, oh the tears! Big smile
PS: mimimimimimimiBig smile
Prince Kobol
#2900 - 2014-10-02 09:32:02 UTC
TheFairyClinkerBell wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Aiyshimin wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Timers.. how are you going to attack somebodies system which is cyno jammed and defended with Capitals with your small subcap fleet?


With capitals

(read the devblog)



In other words you have no idea


I think they are referring to the changes which would allow capitals to use gates.

Cyno jammed system would be no issue, you just jump through both sub-capitals and capitals via your chosen gate to a next door system.


lmao.. yeah like to see a fleet of capitals jumping into a **** load of bubbled and then getting popped...