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A Reminder Regarding Real Life Harassment

First post First post First post
Author
Black Pedro
Mine.
#721 - 2014-09-12 14:52:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

And in this you are absolutely correct. It has nothing to do with trusting those claiming they've done nothing wrong. It has to do with using and exploiting this thread to push personal agendas.

Only CCP and those that got banned really know why they got banned. And my isk is in that there is more to this story than the ban "victims" area leading us to believe. But like you said, it doesn't matter.


I don't think those banned are claiming that they've done "nothing wrong", well at least not all of them. Rather that they don't know what they have been banned for other than a three-word vague description. So no, they really don't know why they got banned - only CCP does at this point.

And I agree, there is likely more to this story than we have been told, but again therein is the problem with these policies - confusion, lack of consistency, uncertainty and resentment. Regardless of what they did it seems to me those banned, if not the community-at-large in the case of a mass ban wave, deserve a specific account of what they did that made CCP decide they are no longer welcome to play Eve. If some rule has changed, or is now being enforced, the player base needs to know.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#722 - 2014-09-12 14:52:32 UTC
evepal wrote:
anecdotal evidence


Earlier this year, I posted the evidence publicly for everyone to see. Few people looked, then the police asked me to take it down.

If people were paying attention when I said, this is what's happening and here is the evidence, then this might not be happening right now.

The few people that saw it understand this.

So maybe, just maybe, more people need to start paying attention instead of flippantly dismissing the concerns of other players.

Another golden example of the "out of sight, out of mind" theme running rampant in the community right now.

To those who are festering this attitude: man up, lead, follow, or get out the way.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Ssabat Thraxx
DUST Expeditionary Team
Good Sax
#723 - 2014-09-12 14:58:53 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:

I see that you're trying very hard, which is always hilarious. And the answer is no, they don't nor do they have to. If the rule is "don't be a **** or we'll kick you off the bus" and they see you being a **** just outside the bus they're perfectly within their right to say "stay out of my bus, I don't want your money".

Really not difficult to comprehend. But keep threadnaughting and e-lawyering because it's entertaining as hell.


Your analogy is flawed. A better one would be that you've been riding the bus for a couple of years. While on the bus you engage in some form of behavior every day. Every day you do the same thing on the bus, and the bus driver doesnt seem to have a problem with it. Then, out of the blue one day, the bus driver kicks you off the bus. He doesnt give a reason, but the following day he makes a vague statement about the form of behavior you had always engaged in was now against the rules. A couple of weeks later he kicks your friends off the bus, too.

I am but a passenger on that bus. I'd like to know what the rules are so that I don't get a surprise kick off the bus as well.

\m/ O.o \m/

"You're a freak ..." - Solecist Project

evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#724 - 2014-09-12 14:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: evepal
Remiel Pollard wrote:
evepal wrote:
anecdotal evidence


Earlier this year, I posted the evidence publicly for everyone to see. Few people looked, then the police asked me to take it down.

If people were paying attention when I said, this is what's happening and here is the evidence, then this might not be happening right now.

The few people that saw it understand this.

So maybe, just maybe, more people need to start paying attention instead of flippantly dismissing the concerns of other players.

Another golden example of the "out of sight, out of mind" theme running rampant in the community right now.

To those who are festering this attitude: man up, lead, follow, or get out the way.


So you're now moving the goal posts to "the community doesn't engage enough into stopping harassment"? I don't think that's within the scope of this discussion, personally.

That's unfortunately a fact of life, it depends on how many people are aware of a case, before there can be general consensus on it, or even a discussion. Such as the case for Mittens, having done it at fanfest, players kicking a rightful fuss and media outlets picking up on it.

To say players are sweeping something they're unaware of under the proverbial rug is contrary to the point you are stating in the same breath. Additionally so, when you admit that you had to take it down -- which is what makes it anecdotal evidence, because you admit yourself, you cannot post evidence.

Ssabat Thraxx wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:

I see that you're trying very hard, which is always hilarious. And the answer is no, they don't nor do they have to. If the rule is "don't be a **** or we'll kick you off the bus" and they see you being a **** just outside the bus they're perfectly within their right to say "stay out of my bus, I don't want your money".

Really not difficult to comprehend. But keep threadnaughting and e-lawyering because it's entertaining as hell.


Your analogy is flawed. A better one would be that you've been riding the bus for a couple of years. While on the bus you engage in some form of behavior every day. Every day you do the same thing on the bus, and the bus driver doesnt seem to have a problem with it. Then, out of the blue one day, the bus driver kicks you off the bus. He doesnt give a reason, but the following day he makes a vague statement about the form of behavior you had always engaged in was now against the rules. A couple of weeks later he kicks your friends off the bus, too.

I am but a passenger on that bus. I'd like to know what the rules are so that I don't get a surprise kick off the bus as well.


This is a fantastic example of a strawman, thank you for your contributions.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#725 - 2014-09-12 15:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
evepal wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
evepal wrote:
anecdotal evidence


Earlier this year, I posted the evidence publicly for everyone to see. Few people looked, then the police asked me to take it down.

If people were paying attention when I said, this is what's happening and here is the evidence, then this might not be happening right now.

The few people that saw it understand this.

So maybe, just maybe, more people need to start paying attention instead of flippantly dismissing the concerns of other players.

Another golden example of the "out of sight, out of mind" theme running rampant in the community right now.

To those who are festering this attitude: man up, lead, follow, or get out the way.


So you're now moving the goal posts to "the community doesn't engage enough into stopping harassment"?


That's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth, don't pretentiously visit upon my intent, and don't presume to know my motivations without knowing all the details. It's embarrassing, for both of us. Unless you're completely shameless.

While we're on the subject, don't tell me not to ad-hom (dweeb is an ad-hom now?) and let the other guy off. You really expect me to let someone call me brainless without remarking on the incredibly tenacity with which he does so? You want me to just take it up the arse lying down? Is that it?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#726 - 2014-09-12 15:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mallak Azaria
evepal wrote:
That's unfortunately a fact of life, it depends on how many people are aware of a case, before there can be general consensus on it, or even a discussion. Such as the case for Mittens, having done it at fanfest, players kicking a rightful fuss and media outlets picking up on it.


FYI that's the complete opposite of how it went down. If you're going to talk about how something happened, at least have the facts on how it happened.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#727 - 2014-09-12 15:07:35 UTC  |  Edited by: evepal
Remiel Pollard wrote:


That's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth, don't pretentiously visit upon my intent, and don't presume to know my motivations without knowing all the details. It's embarrassing, for both of us. Unless you're completely shameless.


Following up anecdotal evidence with tu quoque laced in ad hominem really doesn't help you. So what did you say, if you didn't say that you had to take down your evidence, and that few people looked at it prior? Is that not what is exactly quoted above?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2014-09-12 15:10:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
evepal wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


That's not what I said. Don't put words in my mouth, don't pretentiously visit upon my intent, and don't presume to know my motivations without knowing all the details. It's embarrassing, for both of us. Unless you're completely shameless.


Following up anecdotal evidence with tu quoque laced with ad hominem really doesn't help you. So what did you say, if you didn't say that you had to take down your evidence, and that few people looked at it prior? Is that not what is exactly quoted above?


Well, maybe if you were here the first time, weren't jumping into a discussion that's been going on for a while now, and had all the details, you wouldn't be so out of the loop.

I was addressing the flippant dismissal of players' concerns above, and the hostile nature that it's been delivered with. Maybe, try reading, and getting some context, before accusing me of shifting goalposts.

EDIT: no, just **** off npc alt, you're beating around the bush worse than a platypus with an itchy nutsack.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#729 - 2014-09-12 15:11:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Mallak Azaria wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
What concerns me (and frankly should concern everyone) is people are being banned because of who their friends are.


Show me your friends and I will tell you who you are - unknown

No tears shed for anyone who got banned.


Yeah so I went to school with this guy who decided to go to Syria this year & cut off peoples heads because of religion. We got along pretty well so by your definition I'm definately a terrorist.


Well there you go, simple correlation/causation fallacy.

They were not banned for being in the bonus channel, but people likely to commit bannable offences are also the type of person to have used the bonus channel at some point. Explains why not all bonus room participants were banned.
evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#730 - 2014-09-12 15:15:16 UTC  |  Edited by: evepal
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I was addressing the flippant dismissal of players' concerns above, and the hostile nature that it's been delivered with. Maybe, try reading, and getting some context, before accusing me of shifting goalposts.

EDIT: no, just **** off npc alt, you're beating around the bush worse than a platypus with an itchy *******.


Ah, so now it's broken down into ad hominem alone. Nothing speaks truths louder than the hooves of retreat into personal attack.

Remiel Pollard wrote:
While we're on the subject, don't tell me not to ad-hom (dweeb is an ad-hom now?) and let the other guy off. You really expect me to let someone call me brainless without remarking on the incredibly tenacity with which he does so? You want me to just take it up the arse lying down? Is that it?


As you've edited it further, I shall address that edit with this edit. No, I quoted the reply chain with good cause, and made the wording quite specific that it was focused on either one of the involved.

Here's the quote again:

evepal wrote:
Please try to avoid ad hominem, anecdotal evidence and slippery slope fallacies when presenting your case, it doesn't help those with counter points take your opinion seriously on the matter, despite how valid it may or may not be.


If you think that's being specific to yourself, then sorry, that wasn't my intent.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#731 - 2014-09-12 15:16:09 UTC
Seven Koskanaiken wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
What concerns me (and frankly should concern everyone) is people are being banned because of who their friends are.


Show me your friends and I will tell you who you are - unknown

No tears shed for anyone who got banned.


Yeah so I went to school with this guy who decided to go to Syria this year & cut off peoples heads because of religion. We got along pretty well so by your definition I'm definately a terrorist.


Well there you go, simple correlation/causation fallacy.

They were not banned for being in the bonus channel, but people likely to commit bannable offences are also the type of person to have used the bonus channel at some point. Explains why not all bonus room participants were banned.


And we circle back to the point of guilt by association not being a valid enough reason for punishment.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#732 - 2014-09-12 15:16:10 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Earlier this year, I posted the evidence publicly for everyone to see. Few people looked, then the police asked me to take it down.

If people were paying attention when I said, this is what's happening and here is the evidence, then this might not be happening right now.

The few people that saw it understand this.

So maybe, just maybe, more people need to start paying attention instead of flippantly dismissing the concerns of other players.

Another golden example of the "out of sight, out of mind" theme running rampant in the community right now.

To those who are festering this attitude: man up, lead, follow, or get out the way.


Doxxing is not only despicable, but actually illegal in real life and should be dealt with harshly by the local authorities.

But you seem to be whining because your fellow players didn't give a **** about your situation. How does that have anything to do with CCP?

Though it does surprise me that these guys weren't banned. Maybe the connection was too tenuous for CCP to legitimize a ban. Or maybe they're still looking onto it. Look how long they took with the subject of this thread, for instance.

Or maybe it just wasn't 'sexy' enough for them. A lot of legitimate issues players have certainly get ignored because of stuff. It sucks when you are the one being affected, but the reality is that CCP has limited manpower to look into this stuff and a lot of it gets ignored.

People are understandably angry when it seems that CCP is paying attention to someone else and not them. It's happened to me. But I'm still playing and so are you. I know it's a tired platitude but business only understands one thing. So talk with your wallet or accept the **** poor hand you were dealt and keep on playing. Your choice.

Mr Epeen Cool


Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#733 - 2014-09-12 15:17:01 UTC
evepal wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I was addressing the flippant dismissal of players' concerns above, and the hostile nature that it's been delivered with. Maybe, try reading, and getting some context, before accusing me of shifting goalposts.

EDIT: no, just **** off npc alt, you're beating around the bush worse than a platypus with an itchy *******.


Ah, so now it's broken down into ad hominem alone. Nothing speaks truths louder than the hooves of retreat into personal attack.


I don't make ad-homs. I call it as you demonstrate it.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#734 - 2014-09-12 15:26:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Mr Epeen wrote:
But you seem to be whining because your fellow players didn't give a **** about your situation. How does that have anything to do with CCP?


Do you practice derping or were you just born with it? This has been explained in no uncertain terms. I feel like I'm repeating myself to kindergarteners or something.

I hope you're not the next victim of the doxer that threatened me, my mother and sister via private email and Facebook with a load of personal information. Of course, it wouldn't be likely to happen if... wait for it... they weren't playing the game anymore. How does that have anything to do with CCP? You have a fair chunk of information to help you figure this out yourself.

On the subject of whining, hardly. No, don't misunderstand "I told you so" for whining please.


Quote:
Though it does surprise me that these guys weren't banned. Maybe the connection was too tenuous for CCP to legitimize a ban. Or maybe they're still looking onto it. Look how long they took with the subject of this thread, for instance.


Well now, wouldn't it be great if you'd reviewed the evidence when I first posted it instead of the response you actually gave. I believe you tried to scare me with how many wardecs my corp would get, yes that sounds about right. Anyway, you'd be able to answer that one too if you'd seen it.

Quote:
People are understandably angry when it seems that CCP is paying attention to someone else and not them. It's happened to me. But I'm still playing and so are you. I know it's a tired platitude but business only understands one thing. So talk with your wallet or accept the **** poor hand you were dealt and keep on playing. Your choice.


In the end, a few people walking out won't make a difference to CCP. You know this, I know this, and neither one of us is a moron but I am definitely becoming more convinced by each post you make that you are shillin' like a trooper for them. No, if I leave, it'll be because I have little to no assurance that my gaming experience won't be the cause of harm coming to my family. It's not to punish CCP or hurt them, it'll be to look after my own interests in the real world. Is that good enough for a qq for you?

Remiel Pollard Pirate

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#735 - 2014-09-12 15:26:37 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
evepal wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I was addressing the flippant dismissal of players' concerns above, and the hostile nature that it's been delivered with. Maybe, try reading, and getting some context, before accusing me of shifting goalposts.

EDIT: no, just **** off npc alt, you're beating around the bush worse than a platypus with an itchy *******.


Ah, so now it's broken down into ad hominem alone. Nothing speaks truths louder than the hooves of retreat into personal attack.


I don't make ad-homs. I call it as you demonstrate it.


Ok. If you wish to abandon rational discussion to resort to ad hominem and strawman emotionally driven statements, then that's fair enough.

However, as that has nothing to do with the fact that CCP were right or wrong with the banning of people for Real Life Harassment, I'd say that it's off topic. Thus, special pleading.
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#736 - 2014-09-12 15:30:00 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:

And in this you are absolutely correct. It has nothing to do with trusting those claiming they've done nothing wrong. It has to do with using and exploiting this thread to push personal agendas.

Only CCP and those that got banned really know why they got banned. And my isk is in that there is more to this story than the ban "victims" area leading us to believe. But like you said, it doesn't matter.


I don't think those banned are claiming that they've done "nothing wrong", well at least not all of them. Rather that they don't know what they have been banned for other than a three-word vague description. So no, they really don't know why they got banned - only CCP does at this point.

And I agree, there is likely more to this story than we have been told, but again therein is the problem with these policies - confusion, lack of consistency, uncertainty and resentment. Regardless of what they did it seems to me those banned, if not the community-at-large in the case of a mass ban wave, deserve a specific account of what they did that made CCP decide they are no longer welcome to play Eve. If some rule has changed, or is now being enforced, the player base need to know.

Most people are reasonable and smart enough to know when they're near that line you shouldn't cross. And they're sensible enough to steer clear from there.

The problem arises when you have people that make it a point to dance and pounce around the line and see how far they can test the limits and still get away with it. This is akin to primary school kids threatening to slap someone while waving a hand in front of your face saying "I haven't touched you, so you can't do anything about it!".

In other words, the only people that are legitimately affected by this "ambiguousness" in the rules are those intent in coming close to the line to begin with. All this "but what if I gank!1! will I be banned?1?!" and "OMG scamming is bannable now!1!" are just idiotic distractions and foolishness meant to fuel their own personal agenda. Nothing more.

Also, I don't think we need to know for what reasons they got banned. That is dirty laundry that needs to stay in the hamper and between CCP and the banned. If the banned party truly doesn't know why he has been banned (I very highly doubt this) then he needs to sort that out with CCP. Like I said, the rest of us know where that line lies and are not interested in coming near it.

My own personal opinion? They know exactly why they got banned. They want to know how much CCP knows. They want to build a case defense based on technicalities to wiggle themselves out of whatever mess they got themselves into. Unfortunately for them, this isn't court where your ticket may get dismissed if the street where you were 30 miles over the limit was misspelled precisely because CCP gives itself space to review the issue. CCP knows better than to entrap itself with technicalities.

This also allows players that may, for whatever reasons genuinely and unknowingly come close to the line an opportunity to have their case reviewed individually without a habitual perp with ill-intent claiming they should also get the ban because "it's in the rules".

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#737 - 2014-09-12 15:30:32 UTC
evepal wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
evepal wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
I was addressing the flippant dismissal of players' concerns above, and the hostile nature that it's been delivered with. Maybe, try reading, and getting some context, before accusing me of shifting goalposts.

EDIT: no, just **** off npc alt, you're beating around the bush worse than a platypus with an itchy *******.


Ah, so now it's broken down into ad hominem alone. Nothing speaks truths louder than the hooves of retreat into personal attack.


I don't make ad-homs. I call it as you demonstrate it.


Ok. If you wish to abandon rational discussion to resort to ad hominem and strawman emotionally driven statements, then that's fair enough.

However, as that has nothing to do with the fact that CCP were right or wrong with the banning of people for Real Life Harassment, I'd say that it's off topic. Thus, special pleading.


Give me some rational discussion without accusing me of **** I didn't do, altering my meanings and taking everything I say out of context, and I'm certainly up for it 100%. Keep doing what you've been doing and I'd literally rather eat my hair than talk to you.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

evepal
Scholar of Rationality
#738 - 2014-09-12 15:33:37 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Give me some rational discussion without accusing me of **** I didn't do, altering my meanings and taking everything I say out of context, and I'm certainly up for it 100%. Keep doing what you've been doing and I'd literally rather eat my hair than talk to you.


That's quite the accusation, could you post some examples where I've taken it out of context or broken away from rational thought, please?
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#739 - 2014-09-12 15:36:18 UTC
evepal wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Give me some rational discussion without accusing me of **** I didn't do, altering my meanings and taking everything I say out of context, and I'm certainly up for it 100%. Keep doing what you've been doing and I'd literally rather eat my hair than talk to you.


That's quite the accusation, could you post some examples where I've taken it out of context or broken away from rational though, please?


Sure, where you accused me of anecdote. The evidence was posted earlier in the year, and I get to say "I told you so" no matter what you wanna call it, but if you're gonna call it something it's not, then we have nothing to discuss.

There are other examples, but since that's enough to have nothing to discuss, we're done.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
SONS of BANE
#740 - 2014-09-12 15:44:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
But you seem to be whining because your fellow players didn't give a **** about your situation. How does that have anything to do with CCP?


Do you practice derping or were you just born with it? This has been explained in no uncertain terms. I feel like I'm repeating myself to kindergarteners or something.

I hope you're not the next victim of the doxer that threatened me, my mother and sister via private email and Facebook with a load of personal information. Of course, it wouldn't be likely to happen if... wait for it... they weren't playing the game anymore. How does that have anything to do with CCP? You have a fair chunk of information to help you figure this out yourself.


Yes we do, along with your 100 or so posts here, and your dedicated quitting post, and your returning post, we are all au fait with the injustices committed against Remiel Pollard. We know, CCP know, everyone knows. If it hasn't achieved anything by now, it's likely not going to. Take it up with your own authorities or civil courts if you want something productive done.