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Crius state of play

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Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#81 - 2014-09-02 18:46:38 UTC
KIller Wabbit wrote:

Still have a totally unusable skill orphaned.

What skill are you talking about, Advanced Industry (nee Material Efficiency?)

Advanced Industry is an awesome skill. I have a new industry character training it to 5 now.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#82 - 2014-09-02 18:54:29 UTC
The more likely use of a BPC is for invention, not production. Since BPC's are not carrying last state of use (like the BPO's do) changing UI initial guess of BPC use to invention would be less clicky.
Imodesky Kafelnikov
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2014-09-02 18:57:11 UTC
Worst patch in 10/11 wtvr years.

o7
handige harrie
Vereenigde Handels Compagnie
#84 - 2014-09-02 18:59:53 UTC  |  Edited by: handige harrie
I like the expansion, but being able to resize the industrial UI would be a nice 'feature'.

The one thing that is kind of strange is that refining null sec Isotope ice blocks gives you less than 100M3 of Ice products. So compressing isotope iceblocks is useless now.

Baddest poster ever
General Nusense
Doomheim
#85 - 2014-09-02 19:17:46 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
I think that compressing ore in stations needs to be looked at. We're a month in, and compressed ore is still not available in any real volume at reasonable prices.

Also, about the outpost pricing bug, here is the 'intended behavior' thing: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4888288#post4888288



If you are trying to get compressed ore to nullsec, I laugh at your inability to get it. you have enough space and enough people. instead of trying to get CCP to change something, get your 11k alliance mates to mine or buy ore from one of your many renters.

Made a signature so I am taken seriously on the forums, since thats the only thing they are good for.
Kenneth Feld
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
#86 - 2014-09-02 19:24:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, thread read up to this point, I've got 24 bullet points in my to-look-at list. Some specific questions I have:

Fonac wrote:
2. Depending on how you click on a blueprint to "view in industry" you get different results. Some without research taken itn account, and some with.


Can you give examples of this, so we can be sure we're looking at the right problem?

Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

I've seen reports of outposts not giving the correct cost reductions but it *seems* to be working on my test server; it's possible I've misunderstood the reports though? More info here would be good!

-Greyscale

We are not receiving the cost reduction to install fees in amarr outposts (ME bonuses seem to be working). When this was reported, we were told that feature was axed. When it was pointed out that it was explicitly included in the final dev blog, there was some hemming and hawing and then "we'll work on it".

So is this actually going to be implemented?

Also, we badly need a better breakdown in-game of what's contributing to install costs.


Can someone show their working on this (ie the calculations you're doing that lead you to conclude that the numbers are wrong) so (again) we can be sure we're looking at the right problem :)

Kenneth Feld wrote:
CCP Greyscale -

I chatted with you about this prior to your vacation- which I hope you enjoyed

Minnie outpost lab upgrade not providing invention

EBR-22458 2014/08/21 Science - Minmatar outpost upgrade Attached Edit | View Comments

That is the Bugreport

Just wondering what is happening and what kind of time frame are we dealing with?


Vacation was lovely, thank you.

I looked at this last week, the upshot from our end is that the text was unnecessarily broad and misleading - it does "technically" give an invention time reduction, but it doesn't actually let you do invention so you can never use that bit of the bonus. This is obviously silly. Text is now fixed; if you're stuck with an unwanted upgrade, I'd suggest talking to CS and asking what their policy is on that as I really don't know, sorry!



First one, it is weird, I can prolly prove it, but can't put a finger on it

Second point - See alternate thread i made, complete with screenshots - https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4978539#post4978539

Third - Uggh, maybe instead of fixing text there should be something added like an attributes tab or something to explain what these things do, right now it is a black science with typo's

Kenneth
Rumtin
Imperium Technologies
Sigma Grindset
#87 - 2014-09-02 20:06:57 UTC
Bare with me for a second as I get this off my chest.

I can't stand the course if action taken towards Blueprints, in particular the T2 BPO's. I completely understand and agree that the way the T2 BPO's were handled before was the wrong way to go about it, but its not the players who owned the T2 BPO's fault that they played the game at an earlier time than all the rest and were able to take advantage of being able to acquire them. However, the fix CCP decided to take, in my honest opinion, was the wrong fix that was needed to balance them out.

Rather than scrapping/repurposing the entire purpose of the Material Efficiency skill to negate and further dumb-down the industry skill tree, I would have rather seen CCP fix the issue concerning the T2 BPO's by making a slight modification to the invention jobs that would have enabled a player (provided they met the proper criteria) to acquire a T2 BPO themselves from the T1 BPC they were inventing from provided there was a T2 variant available in game. Depending on the Indusrty related skills the player has, and how well researched the T1 BPC is, there would be a % chance the invention job would return a T2 original, and not a copy, ofcourse the BPC would still be consumed despite which was rewarded.

Had the change been done this way instead, the older player base wouldn't have felt like they were getting screwed to the degree they currently do now, and the newer players would still have the ability to level the playing field. It would also ensure that Industry was still something that was challenging and rewarding for those who invested the time, isk and other resources in to reap the maximum rewards, it would have been a win win for everyone, old and new.

However, that's not the change that occured unfortunately, and now here we are, stuck with a new industry that is less challenging with the older player base who feel like they were robbed out of yet another in game item that was rare.

I don't want to end this solely on a negative note, so i'll include some changes that I rather like. The new UI is very pretty and simple to use, and the tool tips (although I generally dispise tool tips) are pretty helpful at sharing useful info. Having no limits on station slots available for the various jobs is also a pretty well recieved change. Station slots were always a big issue with the more busier systems, but that is no longer the case. I haven't really dabbled with much else, so ill end this post here.

That's all I've got so far.

~Rumtin
Ranamar
Nobody in Local
Deepwater Hooligans
#88 - 2014-09-02 20:38:55 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
SJ Astralana wrote:
On the topic of sniping, I'd like to see the bid changed to maximum bid, similar to ebay. In the UI, you would see the current winning bid, but you wouldn't see the winning bid's maximum bid. That way, a bidder can do a valuation, set the maximum, and have incremental bids dropped in until a winner is determined.

This would be fantastic.



How would you handle multiple bids?

The way the system works now is: multiple people can all put bids in, which count to the system level bid.

X puts 3
Y puts 7
Z puts 15

which leads to a total bid of 25 for the system.


If the next highest bid for a system is 20, what you're suggesting would go up to 21. But how does that break down into X Y and Z's bids, for ISK returned?


(not saying it's a bad idea. Just wondering how you'd suggest implementing it)


I'm not the OP, but I think the most equitable way of handling it would be to return an equal percentage of each bidder's bid based on how much of the total bid was used.
In your example, (25-21)/25 = 4/25 = 0.16, so each bidder would get 16% of their bid back.
X would get 0.48, Y would get 1.12, and Z would get 2.4.

At least, that's the best thing I've come up with off the top of my head. This probably also deserves its own thread, come to think of it, because bid sniping is why I basically don't bother with teams anymore despite really wanting one in my backwater nullsec system where I manufacture stuff for the local market.
Crazy HybridChick
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#89 - 2014-09-02 20:47:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy HybridChick
I just ran into an issue the other day with copying capital drone bay blueprints in a Caldari outpost. The outpost 30% time reduction was not applied. I'm not sure if it was a one off bug and I will test as soon as I bring over more BPOs. I did test with a cheap t1 drone BPO I didn't mind shuttling over which did list the outpost bonus.

Other than that bug I've been rather happy with the update. I just wish there was more ore volume moving through Jita. I have trouble purchasing enough be they compressed or not. There's plenty of minerals though; wish I could still compress them without doubling my costs.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3587340&#post3587340
Saulvin
Merkabah Industries
Invisible Exchequer
#90 - 2014-09-02 21:30:49 UTC
Hi,

1) please bring back alphabetical sort order of material requirements in blueprint info

2) Industry Interface
- implement a table view of material requirements or provide exact numbers without the need to rely on a tool tip.
By the time mouse is moved away from 23,953,234 tritanium in order to load them to the freighter tool tip is gone and the value eventually forgotten if not written down or typed in somewhere else.

- speed of switching between blueprints in the industry interface still has room for improvements.

- Blueprints tab "Inventory Location". hangars with their cans displayed as a hierarchy with cans in the respective hangars sorted underneath instead of mixing them into the can sort order. within hangars they should remain sorted in alphabetical order.

- being able to drag blueprints out of the blueprint tab into cans, cargo hold, hangars is an awesome side effect for those that prepare copy packs. the time it takes the UI to refresh after copies have been moved to another location from there could be a lot shorter. alternatively an additional tab just for the hangar division when in corp mode.

- make the top area of the industry interface with material details collapsable too, like the blueprint/facility/job/team section already is.
since blueprints remember their run count, all I want from a bulk builders perspective is select next blueprint and and hit the blue or yellow button to start the job. only if its red one might be interested in details on whats going wrong.

- blueprint section it would be nice to be able to hide those blueprints that are currently

- reduce the minimum possible dialog size to fit the minimum possible client window size (1024x768).
currently minimize and close button are not reachable unless one moves the window around to the left offscreen a bit. i think this has been mentioned before.

3) Refine Interface
- its sometimes tricky to keep the yield tool tip alive.



regards

Saulvin
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#91 - 2014-09-02 21:34:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

How are the Crius industry changes working out for you?


  • Number one PITA: The default input and output divisions. They cannot be relied upon, and always have to be set for every job = extra clicking.
  • Number two PITA: Can't tell how many empty slots a non-current character has available. Also PITA to count since can't collapse material section.
  • Have to click on BPO and pick an operation to see how many research or manufacturing slots available.
  • Research and manufacturing costs are "too damn high!" [Example: >300m for a JF]
  • Facilities doesn't maintain a default (ie. corp or public)
  • Unit costs should be shown in the UI. What happened to the SiSi mouse-over summary? [now only two items]
  • Can't drag BPO to move them or create chat links.
  • Industry index not shown in decimal.
  • Not all available facilities in range are shown.
  • UI is slow to update.
  • Component Array still too small. Even Thukker.

The markets are still in turmoil (overall crashing = deflation), so I have no idea what to build, so I stopped building.
jimbolina
Doomheim
#92 - 2014-09-02 21:48:53 UTC
Well, gotta be honest, i gave it try ( before cruis i was turning 100B worth of materials per month, and its shame what you have done to it.

You completaly lost touch with the game, and this patch shows it 100%.

Well let me make it short, now you are -4 accounts, simple you killed industry for me. You killed little guy with this patch, which is way of me playing this game.

I ll move onto something else, this is not first time you ruined something I was doing in EVE, but i m afraid i m out of ideas...
Sales Alt negrodamus
Sanctuary of Shadows
#93 - 2014-09-02 21:51:08 UTC
Crius in general - I like it a lot. I'm doing more industry than ever, and the process is easier on my goddamn hand due to a lot of clicking being removed from the process.

Some general crius nags:

* Team bidding kinda sucks. I regularly lose to 3x overbids at the last possible second and that's roughly the only way I can get teams. I don't mind paying otherwise I wouldn't, but the sniping really screws the process.

* All the minor UI complaints I agree with, especially with how start turns to cancel so quickly.

* Something mentioned to me was flexibility by CCP (I think you) earlier was a "preview" mode to set me/te on blueprints to tinker. Is that still something you want to do?

* System cost index is kinda opaque to me. I understand the calculation and I can see the number from the map and api, but it would be nice if the industry UI showed something quantitative for it because a red bar moving from left to right does not tell us anything of value in my estimation. At least replace the little red bar when you highlight cost with an actual number so we can see the base cost and the modifier and make decisions a bit better.

Some things I'd like to see:

* Invention teams
* Not all of the 0/0 bpcs from before Crius got converted. Do another DB pass?
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#94 - 2014-09-02 21:53:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Sales Alt negrodamus wrote:
* Something mentioned to me was flexibility by CCP (I think you) earlier was a "preview" mode to set me/te on blueprints to tinker. Is that still something you want to do?

It is partially in-game, though how it works kind of clunky: I find you have to click on a facility after any change to get a sensible display.
Kaija Asanari
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#95 - 2014-09-02 21:54:53 UTC

  • Still submitting bugs where the Industry UI refuses to submit a job indicating "The Job Price Has Changed" forcing you to close/reopen the UI to get it to work.
  • Team Bidding needs a lot of work - there's no way to see all of the teams you've bid on, no way to "favorite" or track teams, and the UI doesn't update quick enough - leading to the team going to whoever snipes it in the last few seconds before the auction ends and the UI updates.
  • Loading of blueprints is still very slow after opening the Industry UI. It shows as blank and then eventually loads. This is better than having the entire client freeze up while it loads, but needs improvement.
  • Amarr Outposts are not getting the ME reductions indicated in the dev blogs prior to Crius
  • No way to have the industrial index as a value instead of a bar for comparison
  • Need a way to be able to copy the end cost values from the tooltip popup for comparisson when youre changing around facilities/teams. Right now I have to click 3 tabs, then hover over the tooltip to see what has changed material/cost wise, then hover over the start button to see the install cost breakdown. Rinse and repeat if I'm trying to see if a Team/Facility is worth using.
Oban Pappotte
Purple Rose Research
#96 - 2014-09-02 22:12:37 UTC
Loves:

  • I am no longer going, gee, I have 657 T2 BPCs to manufacture, I guess I should stop inventing for a bit so I can use these up...
  • With the current mechanics for invention I'll never have to copy another BPO until its 2050 (maybe even until 2250).
  • I like the whole interface. Nice and easy to see everything, even when I have to go buy materials I can still see how many BPCs I have and the total requirements to manufacture the entire copy. The estimated cost to profit amount is nice too.
  • No slots and no benefit per multiple industrial installations means I can do more on my towers now than before.


Hates:

  • Not certain it is intended, but the lag between being able to start a job is kind of annoying... well not kind. Makes me think I'm using AOL or something...
  • Not that I've tried recently to see if its changed, but everything having to be in the 1st division to produce is a bit annoying.
  • Wish there was some way my other characters could compress ore while being in an NPC corp...

probag Bear
Xiong Offices
#97 - 2014-09-02 22:49:33 UTC
The one concern I most often run up against with post-Crius S&I:

Please increase the storage capacity of Design Laboratories, as you did with most Assembly Arrays. Due to Data Sheets, Datacores, and Small Standard Containers all being bulky in volume, 25,000 m^3 capacity is very inconveniently small. 250,000 m^3 would let me be as lazy as pre-Crius, though a mere 100,000 m^3 would already be enough to shut me up.

Yes it's a minor, non-urgent, issue that can easily be solved by just flying over to the POS once or twice a day. But it'd be a welcome quality-of-life improvement.



And since I actually have a bit more time, onto another concern:

Crius has not reduced the amount of T1 BPCs I need for invention at all. It has actually increased it in fact, though that's just because I try to run more accounts than I should.
The reason is the phase at which the T1 BPC is spit back out. Currently invention works along the following lines:
- Step 1: Swallow T1 BPC (and other invention goo)
- Step 2: Repeat process ten times across all characters
- Step 3: Wait
- Step 4: Get T1 BPC back, decremented by one run.

This means that the inventor still requires a large stock of BPCs on hand to be able to actually start invention jobs across every character. If the BPC was not in use during the entire invention process, and was just decremented by 1 run and spit out right away, I for one would finally be able to go down from ~10^5 BPCs to ~10^2 BPCs. Which would also get rid of the issue of my client freezing when it tries to load the S&I interface.

This probably is something that's actually hard to code, and there's even gameplay reasons to not do it. But hey, if you have free time some day and are masochistic enough to dive into the industry code for fun, this would be a nice thing to address.
Korsiri
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2014-09-03 00:06:21 UTC
Overall I'm enjoying Crius, I do have some issues.

I disagree that POS owners should pay to manufacture in the POS, the same amount you'd pay in an NPC station. At least put it under a skill reduction or make it simply less due to already paying fuel/charters.

Also, I have to second (or third or fourth) that something needs to be done about the size of the industrial UI. While it's awesome, now that I've gotten more used to it... I'm tired of accidentally closing the damn window I play Eve in! Just because the buttons are close in my windowed mode. So, please a little more functionality there!
Mr Omniblivion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2014-09-03 00:30:26 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

This thread is for general feedback on the state of play, how the balance is settling down, and specific issues people still have.


I'm sure this has already been forwarded to you, but please check out this thread on revisiting ore distribution in nullsec.

The changes to compression and refining bonuses in null are causing a huge surplus of high end minerals and leaving nullsec with some serious issues sourcing low end minerals.

Querns also made a thread regarding compression, although I personally believe the issue can be resolved on the mineral supply end.

(note to randoms: please save discussion for these items in their respective threads)
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#100 - 2014-09-03 03:38:04 UTC
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

This thread is for general feedback on the state of play, how the balance is settling down, and specific issues people still have.


I'm sure this has already been forwarded to you, but please check out this thread on revisiting ore distribution in nullsec.

The changes to compression and refining bonuses in null are causing a huge surplus of high end minerals and leaving nullsec with some serious issues sourcing low end minerals.

Querns also made a thread regarding compression, although I personally believe the issue can be resolved on the mineral supply end.

(note to randoms: please save discussion for these items in their respective threads)


its almost like goons are known for killing miners, and attempting to get rid of mining as an industry and now are complaining about lack of miners.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.