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Crius state of play

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Qmamoto Kansuke
Killing with pink power
Penguins with lasorz
#61 - 2014-09-02 15:04:08 UTC
So far its good, I had some worries that the new build times would crush the eve market but this is not the case at the moment.Lots of items manage to tank the fast production speed well enough not to fall to dramatic levels.

I've noticed only few however that are selling below build t2 invention build cost and I guess they will become the "new mining crystals t2 bpo zone only".

Which is kinda sad as this should be game for all us not just the t2 bpo owners.

I hope that with the upcoming invention changes you will think about tweaking the invention times at the least because that would help a lot.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#62 - 2014-09-02 16:02:38 UTC
OK, thread read up to this point, I've got 24 bullet points in my to-look-at list. Some specific questions I have:

Fonac wrote:
2. Depending on how you click on a blueprint to "view in industry" you get different results. Some without research taken itn account, and some with.


Can you give examples of this, so we can be sure we're looking at the right problem?

Retar Aveymone wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

I've seen reports of outposts not giving the correct cost reductions but it *seems* to be working on my test server; it's possible I've misunderstood the reports though? More info here would be good!

-Greyscale

We are not receiving the cost reduction to install fees in amarr outposts (ME bonuses seem to be working). When this was reported, we were told that feature was axed. When it was pointed out that it was explicitly included in the final dev blog, there was some hemming and hawing and then "we'll work on it".

So is this actually going to be implemented?

Also, we badly need a better breakdown in-game of what's contributing to install costs.


Can someone show their working on this (ie the calculations you're doing that lead you to conclude that the numbers are wrong) so (again) we can be sure we're looking at the right problem :)

Thomas Hurt wrote:
Good patch, my only complaint is that it failed to add in a race of Cat-People with customizeable ears/tails/fur patterns/etc.


Yes.

Ari Ashimon wrote:
From what I can tell, Minmatar outpost factory upgrades that previously gave slot upgrades are still not giving ME reductions as per the original design.


Let me double-check this.

Gilbaron wrote:
do you remember when you wanted to discuss increasing the production time for fighters, fighter bombers and capital modules ?

you said you would talk about it with some people, but there has been silence since then :(


...actually yeah, I do. I'll put that on the list.

Kenneth Feld wrote:
CCP Greyscale -

I chatted with you about this prior to your vacation- which I hope you enjoyed

Minnie outpost lab upgrade not providing invention

EBR-22458 2014/08/21 Science - Minmatar outpost upgrade Attached Edit | View Comments

That is the Bugreport

Just wondering what is happening and what kind of time frame are we dealing with?


Vacation was lovely, thank you.

I looked at this last week, the upshot from our end is that the text was unnecessarily broad and misleading - it does "technically" give an invention time reduction, but it doesn't actually let you do invention so you can never use that bit of the bonus. This is obviously silly. Text is now fixed; if you're stuck with an unwanted upgrade, I'd suggest talking to CS and asking what their policy is on that as I really don't know, sorry!

Querns wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

I'm going to read this properly tomorrow, but in the meantime I'm just dropping in to suggest that if you want to have a longer discussion about particular things, it'd be super helpful if you created a spin-off thread and link it from here, mainly because it makes it much easier for me to follow separate conversations when they're not interleaved :) What's all here is great, I'm just wary of coming back in the morning and finding ten pages about compression ;)

Thanks!
-Greyscale

Ah, sorry about that.

I've taken the liberty of making the adjunct thread you requested.



Thanks :)
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#63 - 2014-09-02 16:10:56 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Ari Ashimon wrote:
From what I can tell, Minmatar outpost factory upgrades that previously gave slot upgrades are still not giving ME reductions as per the original design.


Let me double-check this.


It looks from a quick check like this was implemented... can you show your working?
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#64 - 2014-09-02 16:20:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Can someone show their working on this (ie the calculations you're doing that lead you to conclude that the numbers are wrong) so (again) we can be sure we're looking at the right problem :)

I can't, really, because we don't have the information we need. We only have that the tooltip shows no reduction, we have the previous posts agreeing it's not working, and then we have our internal estimates not lining up with where 2R- is. But we never have the raw job data to run through the formula and tell us if it's giving us 2x the value it should.

If it is working correctly, I think you need to edit the tooltip to expose the underlying value, then the reduction: if we can't even figure out if this is implemented despite caring a great deal then the game's not exposing the data it should.

edit: if this is working correctly, we build more in 2R- than the entire galaxy builds in jita. This seems...unlikely to me.

edit: nevermind this may not be true as some math suggests jita would have a .625 multiplier (but again it would be good if this was exposed)

final edit: this is the post that says the install costs are currently not working right (#4): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4911045#post4911045
Max Kolonko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2014-09-02 16:32:00 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
- T3's Hulls still require pre-crius number of RAM's even though stacks have been updated in our hangars/market orders/etc..
- T3 reverse enginering success rate is wrong OR the formula that's been available to public for ages is not acurate (i'l update the

EDIT: update with example:
Intact Hull Section
Base Probability (minus) -60%
Skills 105%
Total 82%
This is from client. With all relevant skills at lvl 5.

Now lets look at formula as available in most online guides:
Base 40% (interpretting -60% as 100%-60%=40% so this one is correct)
40% * (1+(0.01 * Reverse_Enginering))*(1+(0.1*(Plasma_Physics + Mech_Enginering)))
40% * 2.1
84% - so skill bonus is 110% not 105% (2.1-1)

So either that formula is wrong OR the ingame display is wrong

- when using "view in idnustry" on blueprint and checking how it would work in given station/pos i have access too i cant select corect tabs for corp hangars to check if i have right materials
- when searching for teams i cant select what kind of bonus i'm looking for (for example try searching for material bonus to lets say hybrid components - you will get tones of material bonuses mixed with time bonuses teams. also cant sort by bonus level (best teams first for example)
- its very unclear what is the cost level of system - the curent indicator with bars is very uninformative. Also a system with 5 and system with 15% is showing full bar which is very missleading when comparing systems.
- for reverse enginering there is no info how many racial decryptors I have. when i select for example Gallente racial decryptor to make proteus hull i cant tell how many i have in that location and how many are needed.
- not all systems are shown in FACILITIES tab. when I want to check how much it costs to run a job in a system where i know there is facility for it not all systems are available. Is there a limit on systems presented in that list? Regional? range? other?

Other than that its great. I love the new streamlined interface. Although for serious manufacturing the spreadsheets got more complicated :D

Waiting what You have in Your sleeve for new skills for industry.

For invention and reverse enginering I would love to have better breakdown screen of succeses and failures (when runing 11 identic jobs its easy to say what was success and what not, when running say 3/3/3/2 reverse of each race t3's and just seeing list of success/failure without info what is what is not good feedback for player. Havent tried the subsystems yet and i imagine having no info what was the random subsystem result is even worse)

For reverse enginering I would love to see REMOVAL of random subsystem result. Its annoying mechanic. Just increase reverse time / material needs / whatever but let us produce what we want to produce. I'm sure that my blueprints copies for uneeded subsystems (the ones that i dont bother to produce) takes a looooot of DB space in my hangar and server time when i accidentally click the container leaf on inventory screen to load them :D (and it kiils my PC too)

For manufacturing/science in general I would love to see the cost of running a job in a system without station service for it - just to see the cost index to check if i want to place a pos there without using API for that ( i know its on map, but come-on)


quoting for visibility

Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
#66 - 2014-09-02 16:50:28 UTC
I love the UI enhancements. I think the team bonuss vs T3 manufacturing could be better. I bought a team for my wormhole that had a 1.5 ME bonus for 2 million ISK. Upon application of that team on construction mats the items reduced are always the lowest cost items.

This doesn’t benefit me at all because it not only raises the build cost beyond the materials it saves AND I may never get back my 2 million isk investment. I know this is small potatoes, but this was a test and the test says, don’t do it.


Thats my feedback .

Read more of my ramblings on my blog www.invadingyourhole.blogspot.com
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#67 - 2014-09-02 16:59:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Retar Aveymone
Attached is a screenshot showing YA0 not getting the ME bonus. It should be getting 1% off (our stations with 2% off are also not working): http://i.imgur.com/ccRRuiQ.jpg

Also, without the team just for good measure: http://i.imgur.com/w8rETlK.jpg
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#68 - 2014-09-02 17:12:04 UTC
Max Kolonko wrote:
- T3's Hulls still require pre-crius number of RAM's even though stacks have been updated in our hangars/market orders/etc..


Hrrm interesting, we'll investigate.

Max Kolonko wrote:
- T3 reverse enginering success rate is wrong OR the formula that's been available to public for ages is not acurate (i'l update the

EDIT: update with example:
Intact Hull Section
Base Probability (minus) -60%
Skills 105%
Total 82%
This is from client. With all relevant skills at lvl 5.

Now lets look at formula as available in most online guides:
Base 40% (interpretting -60% as 100%-60%=40% so this one is correct)
40% * (1+(0.01 * Reverse_Enginering))*(1+(0.1*(Plasma_Physics + Mech_Enginering)))
40% * 2.1
84% - so skill bonus is 110% not 105% (2.1-1)

So either that formula is wrong OR the ingame display is wrong


We slightly changed the Invention / Reverse Engineering formulas in Crius, not by a whole bunch but that accounts for the 2% difference you're facing.

Regarding your other comments, you'll be happy to know that we are working on Invention / Reverse Engineering next - we have a dev blog covering the changes in the pipelines in that regard (and it'll show the new Invention / Reverse Engineering formula as well).
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#69 - 2014-09-02 17:12:11 UTC
Oh, and something else:

I don't really understand why the various me/te Boni multiply and not simply add up.
Hezekiah Winter
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2014-09-02 17:13:28 UTC
On the industry topic.

Is it possible to increase the max contact time.

When putting up bulk item exchange contracts for Corp reshipping it is really annoying having to renew them every two weeks if they dont sell.

Market order can be up for 3 months, why not do the same for Contracts.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-09-02 17:22:19 UTC
The Ui is still annoying on wide-screen laptop displays. Something something less visual fluff
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#72 - 2014-09-02 17:22:46 UTC
The single greatest complaint I have is that the UI is not resizeable, so if I dare to play on a laptop instead of my desktop, the amount of space you have to work with your BP's is painfully small (and the scroll bar is a bugger).

 Talk is cheap, but Void S and Quake L are cheaper.
Tramun Clogg
The Majestic Duck
#73 - 2014-09-02 17:31:44 UTC
The UI seems really sluggish. I just want to click, start-job, click, start-job, click, start-job... Instead I need to wait about 5 seconds in between each click.

When I'm switching the input and output locations for my jobs, I keep accidentally clicking above or below the dropdown and the inventory window opens to that location instead of opening up the dropdown.

For invention, the "estimated costs" pop-up on hover over includes the cost of the data interface. The data interface isn't consumed so I don't think it should be included.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#74 - 2014-09-02 17:34:30 UTC
This is not strictly related to crius, but zyd is currently 400, while nocx is close to 700. This needs to get implemented: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=370404&find=unread

Ore anomolies in nullsec are breaking the ability of market forces to adjust mineral production and highend death is the end result.
Looping Loui
Another Corp..
#75 - 2014-09-02 17:55:26 UTC
The compression of minerals is way to complicated now. In theory it should work very well, but when you look at the ore compression market its dead. You can barely build 1 super with the entire jita stock.
Veinnail
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2014-09-02 18:03:15 UTC
the uniformity of the t2 ship material requirements is betrayed by the gallente command ships.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=365451
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#77 - 2014-09-02 18:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: KIller Wabbit
Industry GUI is too damn big
If taxing rate changes while GUI is open the GUI will not accept another BP until it has been closed and reopened. Re-"using" BP will not override.
Found BPO's that did not properly display impacts of skills on invention (looks like oversight in migration)
After one of the recent post- release patches, started seeing miniature icon array of input hanger contents flashing in upper left of GUI after a "Use Blueprint". Doesn't break interface, but it sure looks Micky Mouse.
GUI often lags significantly - almost to the point of breaking usability.
Teams mechanics are ****. Lack of bidding record is just a start.
GUI gets confused about state for a BP, have to close GUI, use a different BP before going back to trying to use original BP.

Made the game harder for new players in all ways.

Refine rates for minerals and modules are bullshit.

Still have a totally unusable skill orphaned.

This is just right off the top. Give me a few minutes and I'll come up with the rest of the current list of problems and failures.
Kithran
#78 - 2014-09-02 18:28:00 UTC
One minor thing with the changes to reprocessing.

Metal Scraps (and Reinforced Metal Scraps) can only be reprocessed - they have no other use.

Prior to the change you could get 500 (or 2500) trit per one reprocessed but now you get a lot less.

The same change that was applied to alchemy (namely adjustment so amounts obtained post crius match those obtained before) as these explicity exist to be reprocessed.
KIller Wabbit
MEME Thoughts
#79 - 2014-09-02 18:36:03 UTC
Did you go back and read all the way through the official Crius feedback threads? The lack of Dev feedback always leads us to believe Dev's stop caring after about 10 pages of any release. Which of course makes us customers really want to help you out with even more threads like this.
GoffyDude Davaham
Relapse Anonymous
Sedition.
#80 - 2014-09-02 18:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: GoffyDude Davaham
The new taxes on all slots (manufacturing, research) are way more expensive now, even in an otherwise empty wormhole. It's a bit ridiculous.
Also, how about showing the refining output of an intensive refining array like in station? Currently, all that happens is that the ore is straight refined without telling you what you're going to get first.