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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Second Static for C4s

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Pashko Morgan
Mining And Science Tech.
#141 - 2014-08-07 17:54:30 UTC
Kireitsugu Secheh wrote:
In this thread, farmers gonna whine, pvpers gonna shine.
Small corps gonna tremble.

Scanners gonna scout moar so Everyone Struggles.
Rei Moon
Perkone
Caldari State
#142 - 2014-08-07 20:20:00 UTC
+1, i like it!

Down the pole podcast "Annhhh"
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#143 - 2014-08-07 22:14:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Phoenix Jones
Is there a way for c4 wormhole corps to change and/or appeal the 2nd hole they would get?

If not is there a way they can at least influence it? (Let's say give them an option to reject 2 hole options) then they would be randomed one of the last 3.

There are some groups who don't want a c1, others who don't want a c4, c5 or c6.

Yes this is giving some preference, but some of these people have lived in them for years.

If it is occupied (send a evemail to the CEO and give them the option to reject 2 wormhole types).

Kinda convoluted, but it is a HUGE change for them.

It's an option for current c4 owners. The rest of the c4's can be random as assigned

Yaay!!!!
Amgurr Alabel
Incorruptibles
#144 - 2014-08-07 23:38:08 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone, thanks for the feedback so far.

We're aware that the PVE reward progression isn't ideal across the different wormhole classes, and this is something on our radar. Your CSM members are helping us do a bit of mapping and plan making at the moment on that issue.

We're aware that this change will be less welcomed by those who live in C4s with the intention of isolating themselves, but overall we beleive that this change will be positive for Wormholes as a whole. You may find that C4s with C4/C1 statics and other similar configurations may still meet your needs well.

We will not be publishing the list of new statics, but players will be able to investigate them on SISI once it is updated with this change. The second statics are not configured as predictably as they are in C2s, but there are still some patterns that can be discovered.


I'm sorry but this is a kick in the teeth. Not only are you drastically changing my home system but you aren't even giving me the information ahead of time to see if it will continue to be suitable for living in? I have never had an account on SISI but unless I can just choose to spawn my character in my home wormhole it would be highly unlikely that I would able to find the WH to check what the static will be. If the static is a c5/c6 the WH will no longer work for us while a C4 or lower we can compete with the corps in those holes.

It is bad enough that you are drastically changing the homes of a lot of people but it's even worse that you aren't going to readily make the information accessible for us to make a decision about the future of our corp.
Bibosikus
Air
#145 - 2014-08-07 23:45:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Bibosikus
I believe CCP has somewhat missed the point regarding C4's. "Related Player Activity" graphs are no substitute for direct experience.

An extra w-space static won't induce a mass immigration, because it increases risk without adding reward. C4's are farmed by C5 dwellers, mostly, and opportunistically because the C4 is on a logistic chain. Nobody in their right mind lives in a C4 - and even less so come Hyperion.

Extra static: -1

Redesign of C4 spawn mechanics (specifically distance between them) : +10

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#146 - 2014-08-08 01:58:57 UTC
Hmmm, I think C4s will be hives for hunting pvp groups the same as c2's are now. Good change although I think it would be fair to at least advise what the possible static combinations will be. +1

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Opnessa Nolen
Sama Guild
#147 - 2014-08-08 02:41:43 UTC
I actually had an intelligent rebuttal to CCP's proposed set of changes. Then I realized that C5 space = the old C4 space due to the new anti rage rolling mechanics. Cap escalations are more than enough to pay for potential losses.

Loving the new wolf rayet bonus...
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
#148 - 2014-08-08 03:08:46 UTC
Winthorp wrote:

I think you will find i have more then 5c and i will throw it around however i feel, and i like how all the C4 residents are coming out and engaging on the WH forums for the first time after never having discussed C4 ideas in the countless threads that have discussed them. (The only person i see in here that has ever discussed C4's is from Sama Guild that i threatened to evict form C4 space and now they have left C4 space..... Roll)


Thanks for the shout out. Cool

I've always known CCP devs actually do read the wh forums. Especially Fozzie since he actually replies to my mails Shocked
If you look back far enough, I was original proposer of dual C4 statics. I did not mention on the forums that I was only considering k-space statics. Low sec for C4's with C1-3's in them & null for C4-C4+. After it became abundantly clear that C4 falls in the deep space paradigm; the statics would be other w-space then I shifted{flip flopped} my tone.

Something should be done about C4 PVE though. Outside of certain comps chain running Frontier Barracks, it's outright brutal in risk v reward. Maybe C3 sites should also spawn in addition to the normal sites.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#149 - 2014-08-08 08:38:50 UTC
Shilalasar wrote:
Pavel Sohaj wrote:

PVE is not linear and it shouldnt be. Higher class, higher risk at least during the PVE. Dont you dare fix it. Itll screw small ones. And forcing ppl in C4s to guard more then single entrance, that will SURELY make them more popular.

C2s are so great for mostly simple reason - HIGHSEC. Constant access. C4 with c4 and C5, YAAAY. Logoff.


Higher class, more isk risked, but less risk because harder to engade and less traffic is more like it.
C2s are great because access to k-space including lowsec statics and a static of your choosing for your ratting needs.


I´ll repeat myself here again: C4 guys, none of those t3blobbing C5 groups you are so scared about have a C4 as a static, so you will see much more impact from the new randoms than from the second static. There are even barely any big C2->c4 groups left.

And you small farming groups should be superhappy, f.e. use the static c4 if you have a few peeps online, otherwise just solofarm the static c3. You have a new static c5? Finally you have access to those big gassites.
Wanna shoot people in the face and not be bored to death? Huge chains to scout with multiple pilots instead of the old C4-C4-C4-c4-c5-I´ll shoot myself-c5-c5-null chains.


More statics add more need for security thus leaving less stuff to farm with. Add the changes closing mechanics, itll be hell.



Kireitsugu Secheh wrote:
In this thread, farmers gonna whine, pvpers gonna shine.
Small corps gonna tremble.


Small PVE corps goners.
Odin Skydiver
Alexylva Paradox
#150 - 2014-08-08 09:10:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Odin Skydiver
C4 sites are just fine. I'm okay with dual static but d-scan gives too much information when your cloaked. You can d-scan site runners cloaked in under 30s and you could warp to the site. That's more information right there than having hs local cause you know where they are already form the wrecks.

It's harder to find mission runners in kspace cause there you would actually need combat probes.

EDIT:

-1 to dual static if d-scan gives this much information while cloaked.
Kp Amelia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#151 - 2014-08-08 11:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kp Amelia
Odin Skydiver wrote:
C4 sites are just fine. I'm okay with dual static but d-scan gives too much information when your cloaked. You can d-scan site runners cloaked in under 30s and you could warp to the site. That's more information right there than having hs local cause you know where they are already form the wrecks.

It's harder to find mission runners in kspace cause there you would actually need combat probes.


Wow so you consider a C4 where spawns are 125km's away and need at least 3 RR BS's or T3's but only pay a max of 90mill, vs a C3 which can be solo'ed fairly easily and pay out 70mill, or even a C5 which will pay out 700mill per site, to be fair?

Anyone who says C4 sites are fair either does not live in a C4 or is a troll. Ignoring the fact that they will now be a LOT less safer to run, increasing C4 corps expenses exponentially without increasing their profit at all.

I find it funny in a sad and pathetic way how people call C4 dwellers bears. C4 dwellers have had to deal with much harder logistics just to run very unbalanced sites for a meager profit. With the current spawn rate in a C4 it would take 1-2 weeks of running sites to payback a single RR domi fleet lost (3 RR domis) and you want to call that fair??? The more I think about the way CCP are approaching this the more if feels like a slap in the face to anyone currently living in a C4.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#152 - 2014-08-08 11:52:02 UTC
Kp Amelia wrote:
Odin Skydiver wrote:
C4 sites are just fine. I'm okay with dual static but d-scan gives too much information when your cloaked. You can d-scan site runners cloaked in under 30s and you could warp to the site. That's more information right there than having hs local cause you know where they are already form the wrecks.

It's harder to find mission runners in kspace cause there you would actually need combat probes.


Wow so you consider a C4 where spawns are 125km's away and need at least 3 RR BS's or T3's but only pay a max of 90mill, vs a C3 which can be solo'ed fairly easily and pay out 70mill, or even a C5 which will pay out 700mill per site, to be fair?

Anyone who says C4 sites are fair either does not live in a C4 or is a troll. Ignoring the fact that they will now be a LOT less safer to run, increasing C4 corps expenses exponentially without increasing their profit at all.

I find it funny in a sad and pathetic way how people call C4 dwellers bears. C4 dwellers have had to deal with much harder logistics just to run very unbalanced sites for a meager profit. With the current spawn rate in a C4 it would take 1-2 weeks of running sites to payback a single RR domi fleet lost (3 RR domis) and you want to call that fair??? The more I think about the way CCP are approaching this the more if feels like a slap in the face to anyone currently living in a C4.


Aight, I will here disagree with you, but please bear in mind, this is merely my own experience and approach.

WE live in C4. Not long ago I made approx 820 millions in single hour by farming C4 with a friend. We used 3 marauders and farm barracks exclusively. And it was magnetar. Without magnetar, the whole thing drops about 33 %. Indeed, C5s pay ALOT more but, important thing is:

If you know how to best farm sites and which ones to farm, you can ensure pretty good income. You are absolutely right some sites are bull**** . Some relics spawn sleepers 200k away. Command post is hell with amount of frigs and cruisers for meager pay. But it is doable if you know the way. That applies to all 1 through 4 WHs.

Also, whats great nwo, you can roll repeatedly and when its good, you stay in static and farm it, or scout, your call. Pays greatly. With addition of 2nd static, you might get chance to farm another place yes, but you will ALWAYS have to watch your back. And that for smaller groups effectively reduces ability to properly gather cash, with extra added risk for what additional reward? I see none.
Jez Amatin
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#153 - 2014-08-08 11:56:29 UTC
Odin Skydiver wrote:
C4 sites are just fine. I'm okay with dual static but d-scan gives too much information when your cloaked. You can d-scan site runners cloaked in under 30s and you could warp to the site. That's more information right there than having hs local cause you know where they are already form the wrecks.

It's harder to find mission runners in kspace cause there you would actually need combat probes.


C4 sites are lame, I have no idea what C4 you live in and why you think they are fine (would be useful to explain that part).

Based on my experience (c4 no effect), a lot of the feedback posted here on C4 PVE is fairly accurate:

- C4 sites are not easy to solo, and IMO nor should they be. At the same time they should reward group work and not penalise it, as it stands C4 sites encourages small corp / solo farming which promotes lock-in mentality to maximise iskies
- Spawn ranges are too far, increasing time waiting for things to get in range
- Data and Relic sites rarely drop anything useful, only reason to hack em is for the "escalation" wave which seems to only happen very rarely
- Gas / Mining barely worth it unless you plan on building in hole
- Site respawn rate is a bit meh

What i generally see is people going to their static for sites, and those tend to be solo / multiboxers.

Dscan is fine, if you are worried about cloakies you need more/better scouts.

The comparison with mission runners is flawed. WH Data / relic / gas sites need to be scanned which offer you a bit more time whilst bearing it up, just like mission runners. Regular WH anomalies do not need to be scanned just like K-space anomalies.
Kp Amelia
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#154 - 2014-08-08 12:06:08 UTC
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Kp Amelia wrote:
Odin Skydiver wrote:
C4 sites are just fine. I'm okay with dual static but d-scan gives too much information when your cloaked. You can d-scan site runners cloaked in under 30s and you could warp to the site. That's more information right there than having hs local cause you know where they are already form the wrecks.

It's harder to find mission runners in kspace cause there you would actually need combat probes.


Wow so you consider a C4 where spawns are 125km's away and need at least 3 RR BS's or T3's but only pay a max of 90mill, vs a C3 which can be solo'ed fairly easily and pay out 70mill, or even a C5 which will pay out 700mill per site, to be fair?

Anyone who says C4 sites are fair either does not live in a C4 or is a troll. Ignoring the fact that they will now be a LOT less safer to run, increasing C4 corps expenses exponentially without increasing their profit at all.

I find it funny in a sad and pathetic way how people call C4 dwellers bears. C4 dwellers have had to deal with much harder logistics just to run very unbalanced sites for a meager profit. With the current spawn rate in a C4 it would take 1-2 weeks of running sites to payback a single RR domi fleet lost (3 RR domis) and you want to call that fair??? The more I think about the way CCP are approaching this the more if feels like a slap in the face to anyone currently living in a C4.


Aight, I will here disagree with you, but please bear in mind, this is merely my own experience and approach.

WE live in C4. Not long ago I made approx 820 millions in single hour by farming C4 with a friend. We used 3 marauders and farm barracks exclusively. And it was magnetar. Without magnetar, the whole thing drops about 33 %. Indeed, C5s pay ALOT more but, important thing is:

If you know how to best farm sites and which ones to farm, you can ensure pretty good income. You are absolutely right some sites are bull**** . Some relics spawn sleepers 200k away. Command post is hell with amount of frigs and cruisers for meager pay. But it is doable if you know the way. That applies to all 1 through 4 WHs.

Also, whats great nwo, you can roll repeatedly and when its good, you stay in static and farm it, or scout, your call. Pays greatly. With addition of 2nd static, you might get chance to farm another place yes, but you will ALWAYS have to watch your back. And that for smaller groups effectively reduces ability to properly gather cash, with extra added risk for what additional reward? I see none.


820 mill personally or divided over the 3 of you? That is 27 sites to give you each 820 mill, which is obviously impossible even if its and empty wormhole that has never been run. And you say you did that all in one hour? You sir are literally God!

More realistically you mean 820 mill over the 3 of you, which is 9 sites, even that in an hour is next to impossible even in the marauders, not to mention that having 9 Barracks's is also next to impossible. We have never had more than 11 sites in total in our C4 magnatar.

Now lets be more realistic, most C4s are occupied by smaller corps who do not have the numbers, skill and isk to move higher or to defend lower C wormholes. I can guarantee most can not and don't use maruaders, and if they did after they patch they would be loosing a lot more isk then they would be making with the increased traffic.

While I don't doubt there are very efficient ways to make isk in a C4 they are still worse then either a C5 or C3 when it comes to PVE, and those more efficient ways will be down the toilet after the patch.
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#155 - 2014-08-08 12:08:39 UTC
Kp Amelia wrote:

820 mill personally or divided over the 3 of you? That is 27 sites to give you each 820 mill, which is obviously impossible even if its and empty wormhole that has never been run. And you say you did that all in one hour? You sir are literally God!

More realistically you mean 820 mill over the 3 of you, which is 9 sites, even that in an hour is next to impossible even in the marauders, not to mention that having 9 Barracks's is also next to impossible. We have never had more than 11 sites in total in our C4 magnatar.

Now lets be more realistic, most C4s are occupied by smaller corps who do not have the numbers, skill and isk to move higher or to defend lower C wormholes. I can guarantee most can not and don't use maruaders, and if they did after they patch they would be loosing a lot more isk then they would be making with the increased traffic.

While I don't doubt there are very efficient ways to make isk in a C4 they are still worse then either a C5 or C3 when it comes to PVE, and those more efficient ways will be down the toilet after the patch.


Shortened quote, hurts my eyes.
3 marauders, 2 people ( I Fly 2 marauders)
When you do barracks, it takes like 5 to 6 minutes in magnetar. Also we´ve ran into C4s with 30+ anomalies and even at one point with 24 barracks. Black hole tho.

With the rest, I couldnt agree more. I like my small corp and I have absolute no intention of fusing with anybody only to be able to provide "Content" that this change and others deny.
Maul555
Xen Investments
#156 - 2014-08-08 12:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Maul555
I moved into a C4 for the relative peace and quiet. Please don't turn my system into grand central station... There is more than enough pvp available allready... There seems to be an obsession at ccp with equating combat pvp with emergent gameplay.... You guys seem to be making it harder and harder for a small group to survive. Not everyone in wormhole space wants to be shoot em up space pirates constantly looking for the next fight!
Winthorp
#157 - 2014-08-08 13:10:50 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
I moved into a C4 for the relative peace and quiet. Please don't turn my system into grand central station...


Peace and quiet, what are you even talking about, are you sitting in your hammock under a shady tree reading a John Grisham novel?
Pavel Sohaj
BAND of MAGNUS
#158 - 2014-08-08 13:31:57 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
I moved into a C4 for the relative peace and quiet. Please don't turn my system into grand central station...


Peace and quiet, what are you even talking about, are you sitting in your hammock under a shady tree reading a John Grisham novel?


Unless you play at 4-4 undock all day, you´d know C4s are epitome of quiet place for retirement. Now.
Winthorp
#159 - 2014-08-08 13:53:22 UTC
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
Maul555 wrote:
I moved into a C4 for the relative peace and quiet. Please don't turn my system into grand central station...


Peace and quiet, what are you even talking about, are you sitting in your hammock under a shady tree reading a John Grisham novel?


Unless you play at 4-4 undock all day, you´d know C4s are epitome of quiet place for retirement. Now.


I happen to live in a C4.
Odin Skydiver
Alexylva Paradox
#160 - 2014-08-08 14:11:18 UTC
Jez Amatin wrote:
Odin Skydiver wrote:
C4 sites are just fine. I'm okay with dual static but d-scan gives too much information when your cloaked. You can d-scan site runners cloaked in under 30s and you could warp to the site. That's more information right there than having hs local cause you know where they are already form the wrecks.

It's harder to find mission runners in kspace cause there you would actually need combat probes.


C4 sites are lame, I have no idea what C4 you live in and why you think they are fine (would be useful to explain that part).

Based on my experience (c4 no effect), a lot of the feedback posted here on C4 PVE is fairly accurate:

- C4 sites are not easy to solo, and IMO nor should they be. At the same time they should reward group work and not penalise it, as it stands C4 sites encourages small corp / solo farming which promotes lock-in mentality to maximise iskies
- Spawn ranges are too far, increasing time waiting for things to get in range
- Data and Relic sites rarely drop anything useful, only reason to hack em is for the "escalation" wave which seems to only happen very rarely
- Gas / Mining barely worth it unless you plan on building in hole
- Site respawn rate is a bit meh

What i generally see is people going to their static for sites, and those tend to be solo / multiboxers.

Dscan is fine, if you are worried about cloakies you need more/better scouts.

The comparison with mission runners is flawed. WH Data / relic / gas sites need to be scanned which offer you a bit more time whilst bearing it up, just like mission runners. Regular WH anomalies do not need to be scanned just like K-space anomalies.


Sorry I meant their fine now in risk/isk ratio. C4 sites are not worth to solo if I need more than 1 scout. I get more isk spaming SOE lv4 in hs. Shame they where fun to solo in T1 Raven but ccp wants to "balance" pvp.