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Wormholes

 
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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Wormhole Effect Rebalance

First post
Author
Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
#41 - 2014-08-06 16:28:15 UTC
Black Hole = Mordu ship doctrine :)

Overall I like the changes. Right now w-space fleets seem to skew heavily toward armor-based brawling. I like that we're giving skirmish fleets a place where they'll really excel. It means that WH corps will want to have their pilots cross-trained, but that's not really a bad thing.
Bob Artis
Rolled Out
#42 - 2014-08-06 16:29:05 UTC
I actually have no complaints here. Looks good.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#43 - 2014-08-06 16:37:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Gorski Car wrote:
Does the wolf rayet small weapon damage bonus apply to rapid light missiles?


Yes, since it applies to the light missiles themselves.


Sounds like the cruisers that get bonuses to light weapons are going to ruin your plans.
Volcan Roubartzan
Damage Goods
#44 - 2014-08-06 16:47:16 UTC
I would like to believe that your intention isn't to prevent emergent game play but I have been playing this game for almost a year and every time I find something that works for me, you guys go ahead and Nerf it. I am getting very sick of it. The fact that the first third of the blog post is you trying to assuage us that you are not in fact trying to kill the current gameplay says a lot about the pill you are making us swallow.

I train drones, I start hearing sentry cruisers will be getting nerfed, I move into a Cataclysmic wormhole, you set out to nerf the RR, I look to use my otherwise completely useless and overpriced Legion in a Wolf-Rayet, you change the Wolf-Rayet bonus to something that again is totally useless. No armour ships buffer tank sleeper sites because they don't passively regenerate. Rolling wormholes is already hard enough for a small corporation and now you are making it untenably risky for a small corporation like mine to do it. We already only just get by in our WH. Where do we go? We can't make any isk in HS and nullsec is dominated by a few mega alliances to whose every need and whim you pander to. Do you nerf everything I try so I have to go buy plex? Did I join a game or a pyramid scheme? as an illustration here is how I've felt in my first year of eve. Big smileSmileWhat?SadXEvil
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated
Adhocracy
#45 - 2014-08-06 16:58:15 UTC
90% love it. Especially on board with the new black holes, exactly the kind of unique environment I wanted to see.

My one point of concern is the energy transfer in Cat Vars. I recognize the worry about spider-tanking carriers, but I feel like this is going to hurt logi cruisers a lot and make it hard to have subcap fights in these systems. I can easily see people trying to avoid fights the way they avoid black holes now if it becomes impossible to maintain a logi chain.

If carriers are the primary concern, why not make the nerf specific to capital energy transfer arrays? That way subcap logi are as effective as ever and the spider-tanks are nerfed to an acceptable degree.
Teoshen
Transcendent Innovations Incorporated
The.Spanish.Inquisition
#46 - 2014-08-06 17:13:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Teoshen
As the CEO of a small corp, I have very mixed feelings about these changes.

Some of the changes I see don't look to me to be content friendly. Rolling WHs will be more risky, require more people, and take more time than it currently does, and none of that is good in my opinion.

Sadly, eve is largely a numbers game. Most fleets of 5 are met with at least double that when a fight is actually found. I like WHs because they are an environment where a small corp like mine can be somewhat relevant and effective with the right choices and tactics. Numbers still win, but we at least we don't have to worry about the kind of fleet escalations that are often found in low/null.

Taking away our ability to be effective content creators for our members (and those we engage, btw) is a death sentence for both sides. Not every corp wants to be hundreds or thousands of people. I accept this limits our options as size is the main barrier to entry in Null sec. Please don't make that barrier also apply to WH space.


Edit: Too many tabs open, just realized this is the WH effect thread. I'll post this in the main thread where it belongs. My bad.
Threll Lornax
The Sleepless Vanguard
#47 - 2014-08-06 17:14:47 UTC
I have a concern related to cataclysmic variable system, particularly the highest classes.

By adding a debuff to remote cap transfers any logi from a carrier would require triage. This negates all potential dps from the carrier. You would therefore need a larger group of players than is currently needed to run any given site in C5-6 space as capitals are a vital part in making those sites interesting (ie capital escalations). Large groups will no doubt have the numbers needed to work around this, but I fear that medium sized groups could find this game-breaking.
Threll Lornax
The Sleepless Vanguard
#48 - 2014-08-06 17:17:47 UTC
Teoshen wrote:
As the CEO of a small corp, I have very mixed feelings about these changes.

Some of the changes I see don't look to me to be content friendly. Rolling WHs will be more risky, require more people, and take more time than it currently does, and none of that is good in my opinion.

Sadly, eve is largely a numbers game. Most fleets of 5 are met with at least double that when a fight is actually found. I like WHs because they are an environment where a small corp like mine can be somewhat relevant and effective with the right choices and tactics. Numbers still win, but we at least we don't have to worry about the kind of fleet escalations that are often found in low/null.

Taking away our ability to be effective content creators for our members (and those we engage, btw) is a death sentence for both sides. Not every corp wants to be hundreds or thousands of people. I accept this limits our options as size is the main barrier to entry in Null sec. Please don't make that barrier also apply to WH space.


We are in agreement, my interpretation is also that smaller groups will suffer a lot more from this.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#49 - 2014-08-06 17:44:58 UTC
LT Alter wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To clarify, wormhole effects do not apply to NPCs.


Wouldn't it be a more so balancing factor for pve if this were the case, maybe if they got a smaller bonus. It is incredibly safe to do pve in pulsars and incredibly fast to do in magnatars, there is nothing counter balancing the effects of these wormholes and their effect on how safely or quickly you can run sites.


Doesn't that result in "coveted" space that entities might fight over?
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#50 - 2014-08-06 17:49:08 UTC
No major objections reading the proposed changes for the system effects..... Will post again / update if I change my mind.
Missy Bunnz
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2014-08-06 17:53:44 UTC
The pulsar changes will not have the effect you plan. The increased effectiveness of NOS/Neut will actually be detrimental to a fleet trying to engage in cap warfare as it will also double the effectiveness of cap batteries on the defending ships. Fitting a battery will be essential in these environments, meaning the bonus to nos/neut is negated.
Cylin Rath
#52 - 2014-08-06 17:53:58 UTC
It will be interesting to see how Phoenixes with Huginn support will be in Black Holes.
Cirillith
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2014-08-06 18:00:07 UTC
First of all - Thank you CCP Fozzie for publishing that Devblog.

Now to the point :)

I think those changes are quite OK with few small concerns:

1. Black Hole - all is nice and balanced I guess in matter of PvP way, on the other hand penalty to web strength might be a problem for PvE content: for example on site with capital escalations dreadnoughts will need double number of webifier ships, but this is a minor issue, which can be easy countered by changing in tactics. So basically its OK.

2. Magnetar - like in the case of black hole - all seems to be balanced and ok. Again - minor issue with PvE but like above minor change in tactics and all ok :)

3. Red Giant - perfect change. Being honest with you CCP Fozzie - smartbomb bonus which existed there was kinda lonely without bomb bonuses ^^ - of course I agree with issues wrote above - removing POS modules will be easy with bombers, such as bombing someone on hole. Is that bad - honestly I do not know, but I hope someone maybe will find some nice solution to that.

4. Pulsar - very nice change which leads to an end of "immortal" Chimera's and Phoenix'es - now Bhaalgorns will be insane inside there ^^ - very encouraging to PvP.

5. Wolf Rayet - this is a strange change for me, but at the end I think it will serve as good as it works inside pulsar. Of course I'm a bit concern about those Revelation or Archon pilots with Slave implants and armor riggs - it will take forever to burn through their buffer, but like i wrote kinda same mechanics exists in pulsar (maybe Slave implants should be changed so they bonus armor repping just like Crystal ones - and please fellow capsuleers don't try to kill me - its just loud thinking :) )

6. Cataclysmic Variable - this is the most controversial change, because in c6 class it will put a lot of pressure on conventional logistic ships, no matter if it will be PvE or PvP Content, and since this effect encourage using of that kind of ships I think it is a big downside (I lived for like 1,5 year inside c6 Cataclysmic Variable WH), Maybe this should be implemented for capital ships only (if main reason of that change was counter capital spider fleets)?

Well - big picture here looks very nice, as this changes in my opinion makes stuff more balanced and adds some downsides where there was none - its fair in my opinion, but Cataclysmic Variable needs more love.
De'Veldrin
Adversity.
Psychotic Tendencies.
#54 - 2014-08-06 18:03:36 UTC
Volcan Roubartzan wrote:
I would like to believe that your intention isn't to prevent emergent game play but I have been playing this game for almost a year and every time I find something that works for me, you guys go ahead and Nerf it. I am getting very sick of it. The fact that the first third of the blog post is you trying to assuage us that you are not in fact trying to kill the current gameplay says a lot about the pill you are making us swallow.

I train drones, I start hearing sentry cruisers will be getting nerfed, I move into a Cataclysmic wormhole, you set out to nerf the RR, I look to use my otherwise completely useless and overpriced Legion in a Wolf-Rayet, you change the Wolf-Rayet bonus to something that again is totally useless. No armour ships buffer tank sleeper sites because they don't passively regenerate. Rolling wormholes is already hard enough for a small corporation and now you are making it untenably risky for a small corporation like mine to do it. We already only just get by in our WH. Where do we go? We can't make any isk in HS and nullsec is dominated by a few mega alliances to whose every need and whim you pander to. Do you nerf everything I try so I have to go buy plex? Did I join a game or a pyramid scheme? as an illustration here is how I've felt in my first year of eve. Big smileSmileWhat?SadXEvil


After you've played a few more years you'll level up to Shocked then to Roll and finally to Straight.

Keep going, you're almost there.

(Also, no one really cares about your self-entitlement whine.)

De'Veldrin's Corollary (to Malcanis' Law): Any idea that seeks to limit the ability of a large nullsec bloc to do something in the name of allowing more small groups into sov null will inevitably make it that much harder for small groups to enter sov null.

Loris Fritz
Mecha Enterprises Fleet
Federation Uprising
#55 - 2014-08-06 18:05:50 UTC
I can get behind this change.

Putting g all the effects in line with each other will now allow you to choose a system based on a gameplay aspect instead of which hole is best.

I think the wolf rayet and black holes will synergize well with the new dynamic wormholes.
Samsara Nolte
Untethered
Almost Competent
#56 - 2014-08-06 18:10:30 UTC
Well - considering your chart Cataclysmic Variables are disliked second to only Black Hole and your idea to fix that is keep it exactly the same except for a nerf on the one attribute you shouldn´t have touched "Remote Capacitor Transmitter amount" the sole reason for the few who are living in there is that their carriers are pretty good inside - and after this change everybody living inside in one is pretty much flying them out, well except the ones needed in higher class holes for escalations.

No matter how hard i try to find any reason at all, that someone not already living in a cataclysmic is wanna live in one now, im unable to -
without any exagggeration i think you just created the new "Black Hole"
Alien Squirrel
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2014-08-06 18:14:21 UTC
If the small weapons bonus affects rapid light missiles, does it also affect drones?
Volcan Roubartzan
Damage Goods
#58 - 2014-08-06 18:24:23 UTC
Quote:


After you've played a few more years you'll level up to Shocked then to Roll and finally to Straight.

Keep going, you're almost there.

(Also, no one really cares about your self-entitlement whine.)



With these changes I simply won't be able make isk in WH in a small corp without sinking more in than I get out. I don't want to do incursions and I don't want to be a goon. If emergent game-play is so important, they shouldn't be forcing us into bigger and bigger corporations and alliances for every single type of play. If I can't play this game in a small corp without buying plex, or multiboxing several accounts, I'll find another mmo.
Chaotic Past
Almost Dangerous
Stranger Danger.
#59 - 2014-08-06 18:29:46 UTC
Love the changes coming to black holes, giving missiles and shield pilots in higher class wormholes a better chance of changing the overall Armor T3 meta.
forsot
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#60 - 2014-08-06 18:34:25 UTC
Alien Squirrel wrote:
If the small weapons bonus affects rapid light missiles, does it also affect drones?


no it would also be kind of op tbh