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Wormholes

 
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[Hyperion Feedback Thread] Wormhole Effect Rebalance

First post
Author
Nys Cron
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2014-08-06 18:38:00 UTC
My thoughts:

Black Hole: could be interesting but will not make people want to live there as the inertia penalty is too annoying to deal with on a daily basis

Magnetar: interesting, might work

Red Giant: Bombs also need increased HP or the number of bombs used simultaneously will be decreased and potentially lead to lower damage in the end.

Pulsar: interesting, can't wait to see how this will affect pulsar fights

Wolf Rayet: cool

Cataclysmic: Not sure what will be good here, probably not capitals. Fleets will probably use ET-less logi I guess.
DG Athonille
Doomheim
#62 - 2014-08-06 18:45:49 UTC
Samsara Nolte wrote:
Well - considering your chart Cataclysmic Variables are disliked second to only Black Hole and your idea to fix that is keep it exactly the same except for a nerf on the one attribute you shouldn´t have touched "Remote Capacitor Transmitter amount" the sole reason for the few who are living in there is that their carriers are pretty good inside - and after this change everybody living inside in one is pretty much flying them out, well except the ones needed in higher class holes for escalations.

No matter how hard i try to find any reason at all, that someone not already living in a cataclysmic is wanna live in one now, im unable to -
without any exaggeration i think you just created the new "Black Hole"


Agreed - the new cata bonuses and debuffs make no sense as proposed. The existing debuff pushes fleets towards remote rep versus local rep (and the implications for dreads vs carriers), and now you propose adding another debuff that would hamstring sustained remote rep? How is this promoting content creation, other than making our residents in cata systems easy prey? How does the proposed changes balance cata systems? They were already mostly disliked, but usable for remote rep fleets. Nerfing remote rep fleets just makes them completely disliked IMO.

Overall these changes smack of promoting full time PvP gameplay and offer nothing to individuals or groups that are PvE-centric. While the intro went to great lengths to paint a picture of not forcing players out of j-space, I think that is exactly what will occur for those individuals and corps that prefer a PvE-centric game play and selected specific WH systems to settle and operate in that fashion. Yes, PvP is *always* a possibility, however, making the system largely untenable except for large corporations and large fleets will push small corporations out IMO.
Tarikan
E.C.H.O.
Warped Intentions
#63 - 2014-08-06 18:48:40 UTC
Apart from the other rebalancing of wormhole effects I am concerned about the Cat Var change. Fozzie, you stated you wanted this change to affect capital ships to make it harder to have a very easy "infinite" cap chain.

I do not doubt that T2 RT logi may still find a way to deal with the new change, but if your intention was to make capital RTs harder, then I'd opt for a more specific change towards them, instead of a general push. Of course these are just numbers, so without seeing for ourselves on SISI I can't yet say for sure that the change does what you intend without hitting the much needed logi chains hard. So for now I'll hold my judgement.

To the other changes I like how you are trying to create each effect to be unique and yet still be of similar balance, so that one is not better then the other, instead, a group will try and choose an effect that favors their gameplay. I'd say there is still in need of some look into the effects of the wormholes to fine tune them all, but at least the direction of the re-balance is solid in my opinion.



Mindraak
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2014-08-06 18:54:25 UTC
just one question really. why only heat dmg bonus in red giants?

THATS DMGISM :)
Irina Asanari
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#65 - 2014-08-06 18:58:35 UTC
Can you change the black hole art animation to not look like a giant anus? I'd be 200% more likely to live in one if I didn't have to stare at that all day.

That's all.
Sanuki Sukuuvestaa
State War Academy
Caldari State
#66 - 2014-08-06 19:05:42 UTC
Im really exited about what you guys want to do both for the new frigate-wandering wh's combined with the black hole changes.. Frigate thunderdome anyone??

Rest of the re-balances also seems ok at first glance, would need to look at the numbers more to decide if they are just good or freakin' great
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
Great Blue Balls of Fire
#67 - 2014-08-06 19:14:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Aquila Sagitta
Lookin at the wolf rayet double bonus to small guns Shocked

Enyos are pretty beast in wolf rayets as is. I mean we can nearly take on a t3 fleet with them. Now your gonna double the dps?? Thats pretty sick but have you looked at a rlml orthrus or cerb in the new wolf rayet? They spit out close to 2k dps up 50km away or more! As amazing as that would be I think that would be OP as ****! If you guys are aware of this cool. I'll start planning af/hac gangs to break t3 blobs that wanna play in my home Twisted

Fits:
Cerb
DPS: 691(812) * 2.72 = 1879.52(2208.64)
Tank: -6k shields +3k armor = 26k ehp
Speed: 1844 m/s unlinked
Range: 85.4km w/fury 114km w/faction(-125dps)

Orthrus
DPS: 666(781) * 2.72 = 1811.52(2124.32)
Tank: ~17k (terrible)
Speed: 2696 m/s unlinked
Range: 47.5km w/fury 63.3 w/faction(-117dps)

Armor RLML Legion does ~500 dps which translates to ~1360 dps w/~200k armor ehp
Armor RLML Loki does ~350 dps which translates to ~952dps w/~120k armor ehp

I'm sure there are much better fits than those that I just threw together quickly but you can see my point.
Random Interrupt
Nasty-Boyz
Templis CALSF
#68 - 2014-08-06 19:23:02 UTC
As someone who lived in a Black Hole for 6 months or so... definitely happy to see that finally changed. The rest of the changes seem reasonable as well. I don't see anything dramatic (which is good, usually). Nice improvements all around.
forsot
Hard Knocks Inc.
Hard Knocks Citizens
#69 - 2014-08-06 19:50:58 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Lookin at the wolf rayet double bonus to small guns Shocked

Enyos are pretty beast in wolf rayets as is. I mean we can nearly take on a t3 fleet with them. Now your gonna double the dps?? Thats pretty sick but have you looked at a rlml orthrus or cerb in the new wolf rayet? They spit out close to 2k dps up 50km away or more! As amazing as that would be I think that would be OP as ****! If you guys are aware of this cool. I'll start planning af/hac gangs to break t3 blobs that wanna play in my home Twisted


I have it closer to 1500-1600 according to my ruff math. Also lol kiting cerb i raise you a rapid light legion, if you thought Ishtars were op against guards wait till you see these beasts.
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#70 - 2014-08-06 20:01:55 UTC
Cylin Rath wrote:
It will be interesting to see how Phoenixes with Huginn support will be in Black Holes.


Will still be bad, capital missiles are just too damned slow. Time from launch to boom is way too long.
PinkKnife
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2014-08-06 20:42:01 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
CCP Fozzie wrote:
To clarify, wormhole effects do not apply to NPCs.


Any word on the light weapon bonus applying to light drones? Or is my Astero perma-****** in those systems?

Also, why does the Sacrilege not get a bonus to RLMLs, when the other HAC's do?
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#72 - 2014-08-06 20:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Deeone
So i adapt to and live in a c4 black hole for years and you guys take my damp bonus away thanks alot......and give it a supid web bonus. I kinda liked not being able to project damage it made things different in a black hole. I actually had an advantage in pvp cuz i live in one. Now its just like all the others. pretty meh imo. how bout a polarization timer or wh only structures you know something that actually makes wh life less of a pita. Instead we get useless crap all around. thanks ccp. hell if you want ppl to move into c4 give us cap escalations lmfao. you took the hardest wh to FARM (nothing was wrong wtih pvp in bh) and made it a care bear missile wonderland. If anything you are dumbing down wh space.......I mean i was all for some changes to the BH maybe boosts to mining or indy even but taking the disadvantages and just turning it all into boosts? I thought it was ment to be a hard unforgiving space, part of the reason i live in a black hole is because people told me it couldnt be done. The system effects all shouldnt just be buffs. TBH I think you guys should have added more negative system effects(besides just black holes), in adapting to the black hole set backs i found plenty of viable brawler fits that work awesome in black holes. Just saying systems that have setbacks add variety to the game. Places where small corps can carve out a niche of their own and actually have something to overcome in pve. I dont see how taking this all away just because people who roll to farm skip black holes is really a good thing. I know this wont be a popular post but its just the truth as i see it. There should be systems in wh space that have setback instead of buffs. Instead of losing the black hole I think you guys should have add more bad effects to random no effect systems. To be clear I am saying this is a bad change and it is something that's gonna increase my home system isk/hr quite a bit. Sure its good for me but I dont think its good for eve

EDIT: time to build golems and tengus so i can be just like all the other wh i guess.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#73 - 2014-08-06 21:06:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
When wormholes were introduced I thought about going to them. However, my main character at the time was mainly amarr, armor, and turret specced. Wormholes seemed to be all about Drakes and Tengus.

I really don't know if that has changed or will change with your proposed changes. But I do note that the armor bonuses did and still apply only in systems with small weapon bonuses, whereas the shield bonuses don't care what size weapons. Also, the tracking penalties seemed and still seem rather heavy in comparison to the one missile penalty.

Lastly, the neuting of sleepers was and I assume still is a *****. So the stupid imbalance of the BC shield regen stats led to Drake and Tengu use (and now presumably ASB cap warfare immune use).

Have any of these changed? Are you still selecting and rewarding certain ships over others with this entire environment, and thus effectively telling players if they don't fly Drakes, or asbs, etc to **** off as far as wormholes are concerned?

-signed

happy in FW now but sad he felt excluded from wormholes on another character in the past that didn't fly DrakesStraight

also, waiting to see how the rebalancing of tech III cruisers goes (will the legion find a place, will the proteus drone subsystem not suck, will a Tengu for all seasons no longer be the norm? etc)

edit - also how could I forget the drone hate in wormholes. missiles seem to be all there is to succeed

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Steven Hackett
NOMADS.
#74 - 2014-08-06 21:36:18 UTC
I can't help to think that this is moving in the wrong direction..

While a bunch of the changes are good, I feel that some of them are bad or not enough.

Black holes:
Getting rid of the penalty to ranges is a great addition since this was one of the bigger issues.
Downsizing the inertia penalty is a step in the right direction, but it will still be a PITA and I fail to see how the penalty is adding anything other than frustrations to the game. So imo. get rid of the thing entirely.

The web penalty seems obvious taking the "speedy" theme into account, but I don't see the need for it. I want people to fight, this wormhole obviously favors some high speed kiting which will be an interesting addition to w-space. Adding a penalty to one of the most powerful weapons in regards to kiting seems counterproductive to me.
I wouldn't suggest adding a bonus to webs because of the power of dreadblapping, but I don't feel like a penalty to webs belongs here, even though I can see why one would think so.

Also I do not like favoring a single weapon system. It forces people to skill and fly a specific ship and weapon system.
I haven't done the math, so this might be irrelevant, but I would like you to make sure that all weapon systems are equal. If they aren't you will simply just see people disengage and people will avoid fighting there rather than forcing all their members to skill for specific weapons, or raise their entrance level requirements, which would also be bad.

Most of the other changes doesn't concern me much, they seem either irrelevant, marginal or good.

The penalty to cap transfers in the Cataclysmic can flip both ways depending on how much it affects sub-cap logistics. Should be interesting to see if that change brings some interesting comps or turns out to be
Sith1s Spectre
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#75 - 2014-08-06 22:33:38 UTC
About Wolf Rayets.

People are going to hate me saying this but i think they're now going to be the most OP hole.



People were whining about how t3s were already cruiser hulls with BS EHP and damage and now you're going to give them a straight up HP bonus without ANY negatives at all

The pulsar compensates for the buffer by giving them a sig bloom meaning they always take more/full damage however in the Wolf with the signature reduction you're more inclined to take less.

Proteus' dealing 1k dps and 300K ehp in game - no thanks

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

Christopher AET
Lethal Injection Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#76 - 2014-08-06 22:55:25 UTC
C5-C6 black holes will still be at something of a disadvantage compared to others but it looks like black holes overall will be in a much healthier area post the change.

I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance.

Dark Armata
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#77 - 2014-08-06 22:59:59 UTC
Some very interesting changes here.

Will make the right fleet choice for the right wormhole pretty essential.

Painful if you have a couple/few different types in your chain.

Overall though I like the more specialized direction.

Numbers may need tweaking in the future as the players push each to their limit as usual.

W-Space IS Best Space

Brutus Le'montac
#78 - 2014-08-06 23:08:43 UTC
i can only talk about a wolf rayet, considering this is the only wh effect i have any experience with.

the armor HP bonus can work, depending if it also adds mass, if it also adds mass, i would say its a no go and a bad change.
this because it makes jumping in or out of a wolf rayet more difficult, because of the max mass.it also slows down.which is bad.
if it adds armor hp like a flat bonus, and does not stack with plates/rigs/leadership skills, i can agree with it, however if it does stack, its again a useless change that only screws with stuff that is not really broken.

the - shield ressist is oke.
the lower signature radius is also ok.

however the biggest point i always have been hating about a wolf rayet, is the small damage bonus.
in a c3 and up. sleeper sites are done in battlecruisers and up, aswell as t3's.
those use medium weapons.

wormhole defense, same thing, medium weapons.

i understand that asking for large weapons damage bonus is BS, and i agree, however i would like a medium damage bonus over a small damage bonus, i'm not asking for 116% medium damage bonus, in fact, cut it in half and make it medium damage bonus, this because c3's and up, barely use frigates for anyhting besides scanning down sites.

switching form a small to a medium bonus will improve wormhole life by a lot, because the more "" usefull" ships use medium guns over small guns, and slotting small guns on a medium gun bonussed ship does not work to well.

either that, or make it a flat bonus to any gun size. like a c3 with 20% bonus to all turret damage.

limiting it to small guns only makes it a lot harder for small corperations, because frigs only work in numbers, and for "day tourisme" because you will not be that effective in a frig VS 4 Bc's.

so again, either make it medium guns and drop the amount back to half of small bonus.

or even better make it a smaller % for all turrets,

this is also in line with the new blackhole bonus, and the magnetar, who boost all missiles or damage for all types, the wolf rayet is the only one that limits it to 1 size. new blackhole does give the same bonus to hams/hm/cruise and whatever else.



Thought is dangerous; lack of thought, deadly!

Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#79 - 2014-08-06 23:17:24 UTC
Aquila Sagitta wrote:
Lookin at the wolf rayet double bonus to small guns Shocked

Enyos are pretty beast in wolf rayets as is. I mean we can nearly take on a t3 fleet with them. Now your gonna double the dps?? Thats pretty sick but have you looked at a rlml orthrus or cerb in the new wolf rayet? They spit out close to 2k dps up 50km away or more! As amazing as that would be I think that would be OP as ****! If you guys are aware of this cool. I'll start planning af/hac gangs to break t3 blobs that wanna play in my home Twisted

Fits:
Cerb
DPS: 691(812) * 2.72 = 1879.52(2208.64)
Tank: -6k shields +3k armor = 26k ehp
Speed: 1844 m/s unlinked
Range: 85.4km w/fury 114km w/faction(-125dps)

Orthrus
DPS: 666(781) * 2.72 = 1811.52(2124.32)
Tank: ~17k (terrible)
Speed: 2696 m/s unlinked
Range: 47.5km w/fury 63.3 w/faction(-117dps)

Armor RLML Legion does ~500 dps which translates to ~1360 dps w/~200k armor ehp
Armor RLML Loki does ~350 dps which translates to ~952dps w/~120k armor ehp

I'm sure there are much better fits than those that I just threw together quickly but you can see my point.


I'd imagaine both these ships would be armor tanked with webs and points in the mid. Still a weak tank but one of these would be able to take out a frig fleet in seconds. Straight
the Infenro
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#80 - 2014-08-06 23:23:37 UTC
looking over the different effects i feel that for the most part they are well.

Black holes

  • they are in need of some serious changes, i am wondering if restricting them to only missiles is a good idea tho seeing how many "high speed combat ships" also use turrets such as the vagabond.


Magnetar

  • while i like this change over all what happened to the ewar bost that we currently have? for jamming currently this is a primary way to help counter the extra damage being output i would not like seeing this go away. without having a way to counter this becomes just alpha ship central.


Cataclysmic

  • after living in a c6 cataclysmic for 3+ years im not sure how i feel about this change, i can understand trying to address the issue in regards to capitals, but i'm not sure how well this will work as it currently stands the carries don't often use triage due to the reduction in self repair modals. thus making them vulnerable to ewar, it might be worth looking doing an increase to nos or ewar in Cataclysmic(s) to help counter the spider tanking ability in this wormhole type and otherwise leave the stats alone.


the rest of the changes look good overall.