Wormholes

Thanks for your comments, your English is much better than my German.
The danger in trying to encourage more kills is that it often has the opposite effect and drives potential targets away. Encouraging movement brings more potential targets, funnelling them into a killzone, gives short term gains and then a great drop off in movements. No one could say that Gatecamps encourage people into Lowsec? They are part of what keeps it comparatively empty in spite of most routes in being open.

So in short if you wish to encourage PVP (and even ganking too as that has a role), one increases traffic, one does not put in mechanics to reduce it.

You have just described ganking. You did not describe pvp. The paradox. You get your gank.... how many more times is that guy gonna jump into a wh? This change will provide cheap short term thrills.

Don't get me wrong - having a way to womp up on the HS wh heros would delight me to no end, but realistically - WH space has to bump up against empire somewhere. Where it does (HS WH) the compromise is that a guy can jump out when he needs/wants to.

Seek to add fun and engaging content while maintaining balance grasshopper. With out proper balance stuff falls over.

Yea... Through last like 30 pages we kinda enraged, shared our speculations or some just said NO to that change.

I think we should - I do not believe I'm saying this - just wait for response from DEVs... I know that information we have now are kinda small and many of us are very concerned about them, but hey - we should stop panicking and wait for some details, analyze them and then if big picture will be dumb/unwelcome/ruining WH, only then we should enrage.

Meanwhile maybe we should concentrate on giving some ideas how to improve WH? For sure we should stop writing again and again how these changes will be bad. I think almost all sized entities from WH and even some from HS or null wrote here their opinion. Let's hope now CCP Fozzie or someone else will respond quickly.

It doesn't take your second pillar away in any way shape or form, it slightly delays it.
It's got nothing to do with the blob or any such rubbish.
A cap 1m out or 100km out of a WH is a loot pinata, this change doesn't change that in any way shape or form. It's just clearer now.

Right now you have one direction on ship choice, one. You go point blank scram web or you die. Period.
EVERY FIGHT through a WH start in Scram/Web range. EVERY ONE. NO EXCEPTIONS.

This change allows gaps to form, allow kitting ships to exist. This allows other ship classes like recons and interceptors to be more useful by catching targets further away. We may even start to see shield ships again.

Here's the thing, when you have room to move, you can fight bigger groups. Go check out CCP Rise's pre CCP Youtube Channel, plenty of vids on there with him doing exactly that.
When you start caught and pummelled the only options you have are jump back or die. This'll give you a new one, manoeuvre.


Random side note, it'd be really cool if you came out the polar opposite side of the WH you came in and kept up your speed. Figuring out the vector to the WH when you click jump shouldn't be that hard and neither is reversing it. Ships that undock already start at speed so that code is already there.

Someone tell the dev's to put down the Brennavin and use their brain's for a change.

And remove the goddamn Odyssey scanner already. Thats the actual problem, not WH jump distance.

Come on now, lets not be naive, one will know the exact distance a capital (say a moros) will come out of a hole with this change, you have not created interest or excitement, you have created a string of killzones. X range for capitals xx range for cruisers yy range for battleships.

Why not just allow one to fit whirling blades to the wormhole and be done with it........

C4, as stated earlier. I'm being deliberately hyperbolic because poking the bear is keeping me amused while I download the Singularity update (Curious why it's 950mb...). OF course not everyone goes point blank straight up but it is generally preferable as it's the best way to catch something. That's what happens when everything will decloak within scram range.

It helps as the kiters aren't tackled straight away and killed, they can keep away from the short range T3's and plink away at them. You can warp elsewhere and pick off the quick warpers as they land before the logi gets there and resets their chains up. You can constantly crash back to the WH and try to isolate slower ships into bad positions via polarisation.

Ultimately the fights that stick out in my mind aren't the ones that start with me jumping into some or someone jumping into me. They start via a warp in and things moving all around the place because of it. The close range brawls feel too often like who can count to 100 first.

Changes like the cost scaling for industry in K-space is a good way to shake up things and add meaningful choice (it still makes no sense for W-space). It gives people the opportunity to make a hard decision: do I try to manufacture closer to Jita and eat higher costs, or do I try to reduce my manufacturing costs by moving away from Jita. Some people will try to be closer to Jita and use teams to reduce costs, while others will move away.


Changes like spawn distance after jumping through a wormhole doesn't shake up things and doesn't add meaningful choice. The big groups will still roll like they generally have in the past, though maybe with fewer capitals. The small groups will likely not roll at all if the situation looks like it could be hostile, whereas previously they might. During the process if you apply pressure to them, they might make a mistake and you could catch them.

The choice will often be: am I big enough to handle being jumped? Roll. No? Don't roll. Do I need this Orca in W-space now except as part of a siege kit? Nope.

There is also the removal of guerilla tactics surrounding smaller groups jumping into larger groups. This gameplay option will no longer be possible at a wormhole where it is so effective. Less choice.


Dear CCP: W-space has become more than just a layer of exploration content adjacent to K-space that people can farm if they're willing to take the risks. You should accept that and embrace it, supporting it, allowing it to become something different and wonderful, instead of rejecting such emergent behaviour from your player base and trying to force it into something else.



This doesn't allow for more options, it changes the dominant gameplay. You can't bring a brawling fleet to a kiting fleet fight situation: you will die while they fly circles around you. So when this change goes in, expect to see fewer brawling fleets, not because of options, but because it's a forced change. It will be an adaptation.

This does, however, align with the upcoming T3 rebalance; they're considered far too tanky by Nullsec people, but we need them that way because our fights are generally brawling style. So if the fighting style in W-space changes to fewer brawls, T3 Cruisers don't need to be quite as tanky.

It just also means W-space becomes more like everywhere else, instead of having a unique environment with unique mechanics. Nullsec types (and by extension, CCP) will be a little more able to understand this Wormhole space thing, since mechanics match what they're used to.


For anyone tired of the W-space brawling style, roam Low or Null. There are groups that do it and love it. Don't advocate changing W-space to be the same as everywhere else.

I like the change.

It will likely lead to actual fighting on highsec holes because daytrippers and haulers can't just disengage immediately.

And it will cause caps to actually be committed instead of having an easy escape button.

And I'm sure we can all agree, if the change was the other way around, there would be just as much complaining about CCP making wormholes too easy for farmers and bears.

Actually not, if you kill /gank daytrippers on mass on the HS hole you have succeeded in turning wormholes into losec for HS players.

Changing core physics of the wormhole environment is not trivial. It affects all players in ways that even at this early stage are wildly unpredictable. The initial representation is highly disruptive no matter what the final numbers are and which are picked.

I believe I understand what they are looking for, and I believe that changing the core physics is a poor way of achieving it, as it will not actually achieve what they are hoping for.

I can imagine how it was presented to them and I dearly hope that the proposer did not actually foresee the true results, because if he did CCP have just been awoxed.