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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Anthar Thebess
#1241 - 2014-08-07 12:03:23 UTC
Don't compare nullsec faction ships and T2/ T1 ships.

Factions are meant to be better.
The moment someone start to use nullsec faction ships fleets the moment their SRP will die.

Very simple - you cannot produce more ships without access to the LP store.
Store itself can be easily blocked, and abused by other groups.

I don't fly or own Orthus it is just to expensive ... and that is whole point.

You pay a lot more isk than for T2 ship.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1242 - 2014-08-07 12:13:52 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Don't compare nullsec faction ships and T2/ T1 ships.

Factions are meant to be better.
The moment someone start to use nullsec faction ships fleets the moment their SRP will die.

Very simple - you cannot produce more ships without access to the LP store.
Store itself can be easily blocked, and abused by other groups.

I don't fly or own Orthus it is just to expensive ... and that is whole point.

You pay a lot more isk than for T2 ship.



Mitigated by the fact that if you lose those ships at a third of the rate you lose t2 ships.. you are already SAVING isk... The mordus frigate is a great example. It is far far more survivable than an assault frigate for example. But hat is more related to its absurd agility

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#1243 - 2014-08-07 12:14:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alghara
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Don't compare nullsec faction ships and T2/ T1 ships.

Factions are meant to be better.
The moment someone start to use nullsec faction ships fleets the moment their SRP will die.

Very simple - you cannot produce more ships without access to the LP store.
Store itself can be easily blocked, and abused by other groups.

I don't fly or own Orthus it is just to expensive ... and that is whole point.

You pay a lot more isk than for T2 ship.


and ....

Black ops are expansive but they are same weakness. The orthus don't have, because they are still no EW against missile.

We can't use the neutra (range to short and when you neutra some ship, the ship keep this speed (cut your mwd but you can reactived them 2 second after).
Dampener, you need three dampener per orthus, nice try to kill 4 or 5 orthus with lachesis or keres good luck..

Idea perhaps that will be a good idea to make some modification on neutralizer, when you go done to 0 capa with neutralizer, your reactor will be shoot, the reactor will be reactived when your capa is more then 5%. that will be nice.
Xan Pendragon
Transcendere
#1244 - 2014-08-07 13:15:34 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Xan Pendragon wrote:
No guys, it's even worse than that, I don't even fly one yet. I'm in a VNI but just bought an Ishtar, and fear that you PvP guys are going to get it trashed before I even find a golden goose :)



Sorry but balance in the game is paramount in PVP and secodnary in PVE. A simple unbalance in PVP can break completely the experience. A unbalance issue in PVE will jsut mean one person is makign a bit more isk per hour than other, will not change the experience of the other person doing PVE.

That is why PVE balance is and must always be secondary to PVP balance on combat ships. If somethign is utterly overpowered in PVP it cannot exist, even if its just a good ship for PVE.


Is the advantage of the Ishtar within PvP as self evident as many people say? I ask not because I know personally, but because other people posting here have challenged this idea. I can see that it might arguably be the best HAC, but does that in itself completely unbalance PvP to the extent that it can be said that PvE is irrelevant.

I guess it comes down to whether or not it is true that "A simple unbalance in PVP can break completely the experience. " And that this "simple" imbalance is the sentry bonus of the Ishtar. Are there hard facts that this is the case, or is this an anecdotal impression, honestly valid for some but not found to be the case for others?

I don't have the answer, but I would like to know. Is, for example, the whole experience of PvP broken by the Ishtar, or just some types of fleet activity?
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1245 - 2014-08-07 14:04:19 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I was out of the office yesterday but I did get caught up here finally. I don't have a lot to add for the moment. We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass but I'm going to get folks together once vacations are over and have a larger conversation about sentries and drone balance overall. I definitely agree that being destructible doesn't end up being an actual drawback for sentry drones in almost all situations. We could expose that weakness more by changing things like drone bay or drone HP but the August release is too close for that kind of change so I'll just get the conversation started and we'll see how things look for the following release.

I don't doubt that the Ishtar will still be strong, and we could definitely remove it from the meta by attacking the sentry use more directly, but we want to try and reach some middle ground before going that route.

One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.


Can you also comment on the help the Tempest desperately needs, and the other battleships generally? I mean at least most of the other battleships can do PvE content in highsec. Poor tempest can't even cope with that.

Also. Whenever my corp decides on a roam, it's always Interceptors. I'll bet any money i'm not the olny one either. Don't you think thats an issue?

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Alghara
Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#1246 - 2014-08-07 14:08:35 UTC
And also some love for sacrilege.

We are too slow and don't have weapon range.
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#1247 - 2014-08-07 14:18:00 UTC
Alghara wrote:
And also some love for sacrilege.

We are too slow and don't have weapon range.


Dear CCP, can I have some weapon range for my Vagabond/ Deimos please. My Munnin is crap no dps/ no tank/ no range. My Ishtar is too good, and has all of these things and more.

They can fix other HACs until they fix Ishtar/Sentries. Giving the Sac more range would begin the power creep of tedium.
Estella Osoka
Cranky Bitches Who PMS
#1248 - 2014-08-07 17:12:14 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:

2. nerf the drone control range so the Ishtar pilots have to stay closer to their sentries.
the only problem with this is it only needs how far the Ishtar has to be from target. I can be beyond 200km from drones with 80km control range and shoot targets so long as the host target ship is within my control range. Which still means having drone control range mods can bring me back to 100km (max targeting range) which is too far for most HACs to hit.


That is a big issue. The mechanic is screwed. If drones go out of your drone control range, they should stop shooting and return to the owner until they are back within drone control range. While returning they do not shoot.

Heck, that might solve this entire problem.
Xan Pendragon
Transcendere
#1249 - 2014-08-07 18:40:14 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:

2. nerf the drone control range so the Ishtar pilots have to stay closer to their sentries.
the only problem with this is it only needs how far the Ishtar has to be from target. I can be beyond 200km from drones with 80km control range and shoot targets so long as the host target ship is within my control range. Which still means having drone control range mods can bring me back to 100km (max targeting range) which is too far for most HACs to hit.


That is a big issue. The mechanic is screwed. If drones go out of your drone control range, they should stop shooting and return to the owner until they are back within drone control range. While returning they do not shoot.

Heck, that might solve this entire problem.


"Ishtar pilots have to stay closer to their sentries." No problem with that - could it solve the problem?
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1250 - 2014-08-07 19:13:16 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Don't compare nullsec faction ships and T2/ T1 ships.

Factions are meant to be better.
The moment someone start to use nullsec faction ships fleets the moment their SRP will die.

Very simple - you cannot produce more ships without access to the LP store.
Store itself can be easily blocked, and abused by other groups.

I don't fly or own Orthus it is just to expensive ... and that is whole point.

You pay a lot more isk than for T2 ship.

Nothing should be balanced around isk value. The fact is the orthus / garmur are they type of ships which drain the fun out of pvp as they take little skill to fly and use lame tactics. I'm not sure why CCP thought its a good idea to give the second fastest ships in the game a massive point range and missile range bonus. I still think the warp disruption bonus should have been changed to a target painting bonus.
Anthar Thebess
#1251 - 2014-08-07 19:30:04 UTC
Those ships are not balanced on the value, but at the supply, and way you can supply them.

Why you don't see fleets of pirate faction battleships, but only Higsec factions and FW ones?
Because you can easily put 1 fleet up, but when you loose it , it going to hard as hell to replace it, especially on the second whelp.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1252 - 2014-08-07 22:30:10 UTC
Alghara wrote:
And also some love for sacrilege.

We are too slow and don't have weapon range.


I still consider the issue to be travel time and not actual range on HAMs. They need their travel time cut by about a third, if you ask me.

On the Sacrilege, when compared to a Zealot, HAMs compare reasonably well to Scorch, and can hit any resistance type unlike Scorch.

Plus, dat fourth mid.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1253 - 2014-08-08 00:47:17 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hello

I was out of the office yesterday but I did get caught up here finally. I don't have a lot to add for the moment. We are still leaning towards more gradual changes for this particular pass but I'm going to get folks together once vacations are over and have a larger conversation about sentries and drone balance overall. I definitely agree that being destructible doesn't end up being an actual drawback for sentry drones in almost all situations. We could expose that weakness more by changing things like drone bay or drone HP but the August release is too close for that kind of change so I'll just get the conversation started and we'll see how things look for the following release.

I don't doubt that the Ishtar will still be strong, and we could definitely remove it from the meta by attacking the sentry use more directly, but we want to try and reach some middle ground before going that route.

One small addition - I'm going to even out the cargo capacity on HACs some in this release, the Zealot's very sad 260 cargo was very annoying.


I can respect the slow pace for "BALANCE", better than a heavy handed attempt at balance, and end up with another heavy missile screw-up..

Plus, Thanks for looking at cargo! Please give some love to vaga as well.

*bolded* By the way this post is sounding/worded, it would appear not much else is in store for HAC tweak this release? I've heard very little on Muninn/eagle, other than a mild speed uptick.


Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Shock Beer
Never Not AFK
#1254 - 2014-08-08 06:47:24 UTC
Rab See wrote:
Alghara wrote:
And also some love for sacrilege.

We are too slow and don't have weapon range.


Dear CCP, can I have some weapon range for my Vagabond/ Deimos please. My Munnin is crap no dps/ no tank/ no range. My Ishtar is too good, and has all of these things and more.

They can fix other HACs until they fix Ishtar/Sentries. Giving the Sac more range would begin the power creep of tedium.


Sacrilege needs either more damage to justify its short range or more tank because 5 lows with a resits bonus is bad.
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1255 - 2014-08-08 08:34:31 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Meandering Milieu wrote:
If sentries are so powerful why was domi fleet dropped by CFC and several others, for baltec, which apparently gets less tracking and damage?

If they are so strong why does CFC not carry an ishtar doctrine? ( Several CFC alliances do, but cfc as a whole does not. )

If ishtars are the only ships worth flying, why do I see these fleets regularly amongst both my coalition and my enemies:

Battleships are inherently more vulnerable to bombing runs than HACs. A few bombing runs against a Sentry Domi fleet would likely render them totally ineffective as all of their sentry drones would get wiped out. This is a vulnerability that turret battleships do not have. (Neither do carriers, but only because they have such a massive supply of drones.)

I haven't seen anyone saying that Ishtars are the only ships worth flying, just the only HACs worth flying. They don't dominate the overall game meta, just the T2 cruiser meta.


The fact that anyone even thinks about comparing a Sentry Ishtar fleet to a Sentry Domi fleet, or that they can serve some of the same roles, proves definitively to me that there is a balance issue within the HAC line. Do we ever hear Eagles being compared to Megas or Rohks? Or Zealots to Apocs? Or Munins to Maelstroms? Nope.


The only thing you seem to have missed in my post is where I point out that despite the apparent ishtar dominance amongst T2 cruisers by ishtars, I still see plenty of AHAC, Shield HAC, and cerb fleets. Bout the only thing I don't see used in mass is the Sacrilege and the Eagle.

The reason I mentioned battleship fleets was because I was responding to the "ishtar online" line of thought many have posted, implying that nothing else was worth flying.

You seemed to chop out the relevant parts of that post though.
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1256 - 2014-08-08 08:36:08 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Conclusion supported by the fact that domis and geddons are still the dominant battleship in high sec war fleets, because there are no bombs there. No reason to use a mega with rails on its place.


So something that doesn't even really see use in nullsec outside of ratting deserves to be nerfed because it is used in highsec where its natural counter is eliminated? Wouldn't a better argument be to allow bombs in highsec?
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1257 - 2014-08-08 08:39:35 UTC
Alghara wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Don't compare nullsec faction ships and T2/ T1 ships.

Factions are meant to be better.
The moment someone start to use nullsec faction ships fleets the moment their SRP will die.

Very simple - you cannot produce more ships without access to the LP store.
Store itself can be easily blocked, and abused by other groups.

I don't fly or own Orthus it is just to expensive ... and that is whole point.

You pay a lot more isk than for T2 ship.


and ....

Black ops are expansive but they are same weakness. The orthus don't have, because they are still no EW against missile.

We can't use the neutra (range to short and when you neutra some ship, the ship keep this speed (cut your mwd but you can reactived them 2 second after).
Dampener, you need three dampener per orthus, nice try to kill 4 or 5 orthus with lachesis or keres good luck..

Idea perhaps that will be a good idea to make some modification on neutralizer, when you go done to 0 capa with neutralizer, your reactor will be shoot, the reactor will be reactived when your capa is more then 5%. that will be nice.


Not everything needs to be effected by ewar. Honestly missiles are the last thing to need a nerf by most estimates. Drones while requiring a nerf don't need one of their defining traits taken away.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1258 - 2014-08-08 09:45:44 UTC
Meandering Milieu wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:


Conclusion supported by the fact that domis and geddons are still the dominant battleship in high sec war fleets, because there are no bombs there. No reason to use a mega with rails on its place.


So something that doesn't even really see use in nullsec outside of ratting deserves to be nerfed because it is used in highsec where its natural counter is eliminated? Wouldn't a better argument be to allow bombs in highsec?



Why people liek to read thing where they are not written an attack others using as base their own corrupted imagination? Congratulations you made your own post and poitn of view lose credit by acting in this dumb way and attackign someone for somethign that person had not said.

Incredble conversation skills. THat is surely the best way to push your point forward.. keep that way.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1259 - 2014-08-08 10:31:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always


Just man up and beat it to death with the nerf bat, like it so badly needs.

You know it's an ineffective nerf, everyone is telling you it's ineffective, so why waste your time and ours with pointless changes that don't deal with the problem.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1260 - 2014-08-08 12:02:59 UTC
Kmelx wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always


Just man up and beat it to death with the nerf bat, like it so badly needs.

You know it's an ineffective nerf, everyone is telling you it's ineffective, so why waste your time and ours with pointless changes that don't deal with the problem.



no need of thta.. jsut break its finger.. the 5 fingers they extend when you right click on deploy Bouncer IIs...

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"