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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1041 - 2014-08-04 23:46:49 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

You are not going to hold a sniper solo. They will just warp off. This goes for both the Ishtar and Eagle.

Then what's the point of all that extra tank? Isn't that extra dps more helpful in killing mobile targets? And I never said solo. Nobody is arguing solo. This entire conversation has been about sentries on a cruiser in fleets.

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.[/quote]
Yes and the scram works on an eagle which also means you are well within their tracking. And I don't care who's fit it is. You seem to be trying to show me that the eagle is the counter to the Ishtar, which is not true. In fact you may look at the Ishtar as the counter to the eagle and many other HACs. Which is the heart of the reason why it's unbalanced. There's no hard counter to it within its class. And the root of the problem is it's massive damage application in combination with it's other factors. If you reduce that one factor the ship is in a good spot relative to the other HACs and doesn't require any major sweeping changes on anything. The Ishtar keeps it's versatility and speed and armor/shield tank. [/quote]
I would never suggest any ship is a hard counter for any other ship because that would be false. I have said an Eagle can counter an Ishtar, it has been used to counter an Ishtar, and will continue to be used to counter an Ishtar. The proposed changes will reduce the application of that damage. I'm a firm believer in creating niche for ships and using buffs instead of nerfs to change that. It doesn't require a whole rework of drones to accomplish this. A lot of the nerfs mentioned seem to be fueled by other intentions than the sake of balance. Reducing the bandwidth, reducing the bonuses drastically, or changing the size of the drones is a way to remove the Ishtar from being used by solo players whether for PVE/PVE, small gangs, and even large fleets. It seems some would rather have the ship changed than try to seek a counter.
Alexis Nightwish
#1042 - 2014-08-04 23:53:46 UTC
Replace:
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

with both of these:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone microwarpdrive speed
5% bonus to Heavy Drone damage

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1043 - 2014-08-05 00:00:10 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Replace:
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

with both of these:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone microwarpdrive speed
5% bonus to Heavy Drone damage

So make it an Eos?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1044 - 2014-08-05 00:06:56 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

I would never suggest any ship is a hard counter for any other ship because that would be false. I have said an Eagle can counter an Ishtar, it has been used to counter an Ishtar, and will continue to be used to counter an Ishtar. The proposed changes will reduce the application of that damage. I'm a firm believer in creating niche for ships and using buffs instead of nerfs to change that. It doesn't require a whole rework of drones to accomplish this. A lot of the nerfs mentioned seem to be fueled by other intentions than the sake of balance. Reducing the bandwidth, reducing the bonuses drastically, or changing the size of the drones is a way to remove the Ishtar from being used by solo players whether for PVE/PVE, small gangs, and even large fleets. It seems some would rather have the ship changed than try to seek a counter.



First, c'mon, make sure your quote tags are setup right, thats a pain to read.

Second, eagle is not an ideal counter to ishtar due to resist profile. Can you kill an ishtar fleet with an eagle fleet, sure. Depends on logistics and fleet numbers more than the ships themselves. To be honest, the muninn or zealot is probably a better counter due to damage selection in ishtar's resist holes.

If muninn had better optimal, i could see them hurting shield ishtar fleets (EM ammo) or armor fleets (fusion) from the ranges that ishtars operate at. Sadly, that is not the case though, and muninn leaves a lot to be desired.

I see what you're getting at with trying to buff other HACs and leaving ishtar as it is.., but at the same time, having HACs w/ BS like dps all over the place... kind of makes BS even less viable. Not to mention, most hac's can't even tank the ishtar's dps effectively in a solo aspect. So if we were to buff all HACs to have comparable DPS or projection, then we would also need to rethink slot layout and tank to compensate. Which is basically just rebalancing all HAC's... again. Pretty sure CCP has better things to do than rebalance all the HAC's to fix ishtar.

Just my .02, i haven't been reading your conversation for the past 10+ pages.. so if i missed something, sorry.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1045 - 2014-08-05 00:15:06 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

I would never suggest any ship is a hard counter for any other ship because that would be false. I have said an Eagle can counter an Ishtar, it has been used to counter an Ishtar, and will continue to be used to counter an Ishtar. The proposed changes will reduce the application of that damage. I'm a firm believer in creating niche for ships and using buffs instead of nerfs to change that. It doesn't require a whole rework of drones to accomplish this. A lot of the nerfs mentioned seem to be fueled by other intentions than the sake of balance. Reducing the bandwidth, reducing the bonuses drastically, or changing the size of the drones is a way to remove the Ishtar from being used by solo players whether for PVE/PVE, small gangs, and even large fleets. It seems some would rather have the ship changed than try to seek a counter.



First, c'mon, make sure your quote tags are setup right, thats a pain to read.

Second, eagle is not an ideal counter to ishtar due to resist profile. Can you kill an ishtar fleet with an eagle fleet, sure. Depends on logistics and fleet numbers more than the ships themselves. To be honest, the muninn or zealot is probably a better counter due to damage selection in ishtar's resist holes.

If muninn had better optimal, i could see them hurting shield ishtar fleets (EM ammo) or armor fleets (fusion) from the ranges that ishtars operate at. Sadly, that is not the case though, and muninn leaves a lot to be desired.

I see what you're getting at with trying to buff other HACs and leaving ishtar as it is.., but at the same time, having HACs w/ BS like dps all over the place... kind of makes BS even less viable. Not to mention, most hac's can't even tank the ishtar's dps effectively in a solo aspect. So if we were to buff all HACs to have comparable DPS or projection, then we would also need to rethink slot layout and tank to compensate. Which is basically just rebalancing all HAC's... again. Pretty sure CCP has better things to do than rebalance all the HAC's to fix ishtar.

Just my .02, i haven't been reading your conversation for the past 10+ pages.. so if i missed something, sorry.


I don't know why the quotes started doing that. BSs can reach higher DPS and higher tank. BS like DPS isa talking point in a lot of the arguments against the Ishtar but hasn't been properly defined. The Ishtar does not even have the best tank when it is shield tanked. The thing with balancing is it doesn't necessarily mean the ships need to be similar.
Alexis Nightwish
#1046 - 2014-08-05 00:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexis Nightwish
Janice en Marland wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Replace:
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

with both of these:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone microwarpdrive speed
5% bonus to Heavy Drone damage

So make it an Eos?


Actually that's a good point. Why the hell is the Ishtar specialized in BS-class weapons?

Shouldn't the bonuses be more like:

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Medium Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
7.5% bonus to Medium Drone optimal range and microwarpdrive speed

CCP approaches problems in one of two ways: nudge or cludge

EVE Online's "I win!" Button

Fixing bombs, not the bombers
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#1047 - 2014-08-05 00:36:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
Derp

The Drake is a Lie
Xercodo
Cruor Angelicus
#1048 - 2014-08-05 00:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Xercodo
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Ishtar is only bonused for drones. You are essentially wanting to remove the Ishtar from the game.


When did anyone mention removing all drones from the ishtar or even imply anything close to it?

The post you quoted only mentioned reducing the bandwidth to maybe 4 heavies-worth or to remove sentry bonuses so that the the ishtar was forced to uses non-sentry drones.

Also to the rest of you I'd like to propose something; it's that the issue we have here is that we lack small and medium sentries.

Drones as a weapon system are lacking in this regard. Beams or pulse, arty and autos, drones and.....more drones until you get to battleships or BCs.

We need medium sentries that have DPS and ranges that are comparable to the beam/arty/rail counterparts.

Then we can have drone boats that all have drone size specific bonuses, similar to how the guristas got their bonuses, and comparable DPS and tracking and range to boot.

The Drake is a Lie
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1049 - 2014-08-05 01:07:16 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Replace:
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

with both of these:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone microwarpdrive speed
5% bonus to Heavy Drone damage

So make it an Eos?


Actually that's a good point. Why the hell is the Ishtar specialized in BS-class weapons?

Shouldn't the bonuses be more like:

Gallente Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
7.5% bonus to Medium Drone max velocity and tracking speed
10% bonus to Drone hitpoints and damage

Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
5000m bonus to Drone operation range
7.5% bonus to Medium Drone optimal range and microwarpdrive speed

What BS sized weapon?
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#1050 - 2014-08-05 01:13:49 UTC
Xercodo wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Ishtar is only bonused for drones. You are essentially wanting to remove the Ishtar from the game.


When did anyone mention removing all drones from the ishtar or even imply anything close to it?

The post you quoted only mentioned reducing the bandwidth to maybe 4 heavies-worth or to remove sentry bonuses so that the the ishtar was forced to uses non-sentry drones.

Also to the rest of you I'd like to propose something; it's that the issue we have here is that we lack small and medium sentries.

Drones as a weapon system are lacking in this regard. Beams or pulse, arty and autos, drones and.....more drones until you get to battleships or BCs.

We need medium sentries that have DPS and ranges that are comparable to the beam/arty/rail counterparts.

Then we can have drone boats that all have drone size specific bonuses, similar to how the guristas got their bonuses, and comparable DPS and tracking and range to boot.

So it would have the same damage as a Stratios(except a Stratios can use sentries) but with a smaller bay and higher SP requirements. This would also give it less damage then a VNI. I do like the multiple sized sentries though.
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1051 - 2014-08-05 01:42:37 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

The Ishtar is only bonused for drones. You are essentially wanting to remove the Ishtar from the game.


I am probably one of the biggest defenders of the ishtar. If it were to receive a nerf however, the lower tracking to bring sentries in line with other Large turrets, or the lowering of heavy bandwidth to 20 and ishtar bandwidth to 100, seem the best options next to ewar effecting drones, out of everything that has been proposed.

My question was to those who say remove sentry bonuses on the ishtar, which was "what would you replace them with" since additional bonuses to lights, mediums, or heavies would make them small gang powerhouses possibly worse than they are now compared to other hacs.


Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1052 - 2014-08-05 01:46:01 UTC
Alexis Nightwish wrote:
Replace:
7.5% bonus to Sentry Drone optimal range and tracking speed

with both of these:
7.5% bonus to Heavy Drone microwarpdrive speed
5% bonus to Heavy Drone damage


You do know that it already gets a bonus to heavy drone mwd speed, right? I mean don't get me wrong, I'd love a 1000dps+ 3km/sec ogre fit for ratting. (almost what I pull with augmented ogres actually, which means I'd be doing easily 1100dps+ @3k speed. )
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1053 - 2014-08-05 01:49:57 UTC
Xercodo wrote:


The post you quoted only mentioned reducing the bandwidth to maybe 4 heavies-worth or to remove sentry bonuses so that the the ishtar was forced to uses non-sentry drones.


Actually I mentioned reducing heavy bandwidth to 20 so it could field 5 heavies still, but only 4 sentries.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#1054 - 2014-08-05 03:19:58 UTC
Oh, this is distinctly off topic, but...

Buff Recon Cruisers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1055 - 2014-08-05 03:38:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Oh, this is distinctly off topic, but...

Buff Recon Cruisers.

I like the idea of giving them a 50/75% bonus to extended probe launchers so they can actually 'Recon'. Possibly along side something else. But yes.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1056 - 2014-08-05 07:00:57 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.


You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1057 - 2014-08-05 07:21:55 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.


You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.

I would say stratios and good timing but that would work only 1vs1 or small gang, not fleet.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#1058 - 2014-08-05 09:32:27 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:

What BS sized weapon?


Large drones (heavy and sentry) are considered as "Battleship class" drones. Basically having them on the HAC under discussion in here mainly is like having cruise missile launchers on Cerberus with a missile signature reduction bonus (a bit on the overpowered side).

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1059 - 2014-08-05 09:40:14 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.


You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.



What you expected from a character that does not have a single kill registered in its name on all history?


Stop Janice. You are not contributing. You are clearly biased and pushing towards your own agenda and perception with complete disregard for the factual informationt that "ishtars" are grossly overpowered and abused by everyone that can in eve right now. I put ishtars between quotes because that is an issue of sentries not Ishtars mostly.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Marc Durant
#1060 - 2014-08-05 12:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc Durant
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:

I'm going to assume it is to prevent from being alpha hit off the field. That is not my fit btw. All it takes is a scram and the Ishtar is no longer faster.


You really are just shiptoasting and actually not playing the game. Can you please elaborate, explain or show how you can apply scrams from a ship going max 700m/s to a ship going 2100m/s in a fleet situation?

Ceptors are a good idea, except they will be at sentry optimals and die to a few Ishtars in a single volley. Probing down one of them and warping in an Eagle takes 8 seconds minimum, Ishtars are over 16k away when you land and over 20k away when you achieve a lock.



What you expected from a character that does not have a single kill registered in its name on all history?


Stop Janice. You are not contributing. You are clearly biased and pushing towards your own agenda and perception with complete disregard for the factual informationt that "ishtars" are grossly overpowered and abused by everyone that can in eve right now. I put ishtars between quotes because that is an issue of sentries not Ishtars mostly.


Yeah it's funny how that char's posts, all of them apart from 1, is all in this thread. Trying so very hard putting in tons of effort to go "no, nothing to see here, Ishtar's fine. move along please". It's hilarious.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.