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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#921 - 2014-08-03 20:42:17 UTC
These proposals plain, well - suck. It's already August 3, and with Hyperon slated for an August 26 release it means that these have already been more-or-less fixed in stone. We'll see the traditional 1 week of "fluff" attention to this thread while the changes are prepared for SiSi, to be finalized by mid-August after a few scant days of testing and further casual disregard of player feedback. Hyperion = over-hyped at this point.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#922 - 2014-08-03 20:50:31 UTC
Phaade wrote:

The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL


You need to calm down. Roll

You only get 700 DPS with 3 DDA, which does not allow for any armor tank. You need 1 Omni at least to improve tracking/or range. This limits your shield tanking as well. You get sub 30k EHP out of such an Ishtar.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#923 - 2014-08-03 20:56:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26


Ishtar - Oh well I've abused it enough already time to dump it for the next meta change.
Eagle - faster by 5ms...still sucks as it has lackluster dps and no drone bay an still isn't fast enough.
Muninn - nice speed change but I'd still rather fly a deimos at least in small gang. If its artillery fit with a fleet it was already overshadowed by the arty loki's far superior tank and flexibility. But arty Muninn still best use of the ship. Its a needed improvement and I will be watching that meta.

The Hyperion excels in its role but its a goddamned battleship. No one can solo roam in a BS anymore without getting blobbed. I've used it like once to tackle a thanatos and hold it until a gang arrived. It worked but now with the fighter buff it will get insta-blapped. Battleships suck outside of massive sov fleets.

Thanks to jump bridges and cyno beacons...roaming null in a BS isn't even fun any more. Don't even talk to me about FW space. Other parts of low sec like Genesis and Arida and Solitude....you *might* get away with it...but 50/50 chance that anything you tackle has a cyno and a carrier for backup. I suppose the Hyperion might be a decent mission runner though.
Justin Cody
War Firm
#924 - 2014-08-03 21:08:17 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I'm sorry, where did I say 800? Where did I say 5 DDA? Did I ever not specify which sentry I was using? When did you ever ask for a fit? It's either really early or really late where you are because you seem to be reading and writing things that never happened.

Look at post just above BlinkBlink#907. Specifically the part you say
Rowells wrote:

even with grades you're hitting 800dps at 50km, which is almost impossible for other HACs to reach.

I made my point, nice talking to you. Now go ahead and edit #907 post.



The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL


yes its imbalanced. Amazingly so. sentry drones don't worry about transversal as much. You dump em and kite freely around the battlefield. Maybe they'd be more balanced if you were forced to maintain a closer proximity to the sentries...like within 30K rather than simply *on grid*.

But yes the Ishtar is the most free flying ship. This slight range nerf and such will have a measurable impact. But at the end of the day it begins to eat away at its drone specialization. I'd argue more that the other HAC's aren't specialized enough in their roles...that their bonuses aren't significant enough. Just look at how weak the eagle is. It is slow...does like half the dps of the ishtar and has no drones.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#925 - 2014-08-03 21:39:37 UTC
Odithia wrote:
Phaade wrote:
[quote=Higgs Maken][quote=Rowells]
Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Something something, destructible weapon system.

Also I spent the last six month training for it, therefore I have earned my pocket battleship and it is totally balanced.

The Gila? It's training time isn't that long.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#926 - 2014-08-03 21:47:14 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I'm sorry, where did I say 800? Where did I say 5 DDA? Did I ever not specify which sentry I was using? When did you ever ask for a fit? It's either really early or really late where you are because you seem to be reading and writing things that never happened.

Look at post just above BlinkBlink#907. Specifically the part you say
Rowells wrote:

even with grades you're hitting 800dps at 50km, which is almost impossible for other HACs to reach.

I made my point, nice talking to you. Now go ahead and edit #907 post.



The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL


yes its imbalanced. Amazingly so. sentry drones don't worry about transversal as much. You dump em and kite freely around the battlefield. Maybe they'd be more balanced if you were forced to maintain a closer proximity to the sentries...like within 30K rather than simply *on grid*.

But yes the Ishtar is the most free flying ship. This slight range nerf and such will have a measurable impact. But at the end of the day it begins to eat away at its drone specialization. I'd argue more that the other HAC's aren't specialized enough in their roles...that their bonuses aren't significant enough. Just look at how weak the eagle is. It is slow...does like half the dps of the ishtar and has no drones.

I agree. I think the other HACs need buffed and given a niche that the Ishtar enjoys.
Xander Phoena
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#927 - 2014-08-03 22:12:54 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.


Strongly suspect those Ishtar changes aren't harsh enough. The great thing about the new six weekly release schedule is either Rise is right and I look silly (this happens a lot) or he's wrong and we don't need to wait six months for the fix. My gut is that if these are the changes to the Ishtar that hit Hyperion, further tweaking will be required.

www.crossingzebras.com
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#928 - 2014-08-03 22:19:30 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Phaade wrote:

The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL


You need to calm down. Roll

You only get 700 DPS with 3 DDA, which does not allow for any armor tank. You need 1 Omni at least to improve tracking/or range. This limits your shield tanking as well. You get sub 30k EHP out of such an Ishtar.


Funny, I get 42k+ EHP, 1800+ m/s and 700+ DPS (@47+23). Edit: Or 600+ DPS @83+62

You know, the kind of nonsense just about every other ship can only dream of.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#929 - 2014-08-03 22:26:59 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Phaade wrote:

The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL


You need to calm down. Roll

You only get 700 DPS with 3 DDA, which does not allow for any armor tank. You need 1 Omni at least to improve tracking/or range. This limits your shield tanking as well. You get sub 30k EHP out of such an Ishtar.


You need to lay off the drugs. And I am entirely calm.

Your numbers are wrong, and you still haven't presented an argument for this ship being reasonable. I'd love to see how many ishtars are flown versus other HACs. Then knock off the HACs people fly simply because they like them. It's probably something like 70 percent or so ishtar.

Remember the old drake and how often it was flown relative to other BCs? Yeah that's the current ishtar.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#930 - 2014-08-03 22:30:54 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Phaade wrote:

The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL


You need to calm down. Roll

You only get 700 DPS with 3 DDA, which does not allow for any armor tank. You need 1 Omni at least to improve tracking/or range. This limits your shield tanking as well. You get sub 30k EHP out of such an Ishtar.


Funny, I get 42k+ EHP, 1800+ m/s and 700+ DPS (@47+23).

You know, the kind of nonsense just about every other ship can only dream of.

With what fit?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#931 - 2014-08-03 22:33:01 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Phaade wrote:

The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL


You need to calm down. Roll

You only get 700 DPS with 3 DDA, which does not allow for any armor tank. You need 1 Omni at least to improve tracking/or range. This limits your shield tanking as well. You get sub 30k EHP out of such an Ishtar.


Funny, I get 42k+ EHP, 1800+ m/s and 700+ DPS (@47+23).

You know, the kind of nonsense just about every other ship can only dream of.

With what fit?



3ddas, nano, shield tanked.

Oh can fit neuts too. Because LOL.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#932 - 2014-08-03 22:36:22 UTC
Justin Cody wrote:
Phaade wrote:
Higgs Maken wrote:
Rowells wrote:

I'm sorry, where did I say 800? Where did I say 5 DDA? Did I ever not specify which sentry I was using? When did you ever ask for a fit? It's either really early or really late where you are because you seem to be reading and writing things that never happened.

Look at post just above BlinkBlink#907. Specifically the part you say
Rowells wrote:

even with grades you're hitting 800dps at 50km, which is almost impossible for other HACs to reach.

I made my point, nice talking to you. Now go ahead and edit #907 post.



The level of idiocy in the drivel you post is staggering.

The ishtar is blatantly imbalanced. A **** throwing monkey has enough intellect to understand this.

Give me one legitimate argument for how the ishtar is balanced; so far not one has been stated in 46 pages.

Battleship dps, cruiser size and speed, hac resists, battleships range, excellent application, selectable damage type, massive versatility, free hi slots.....

Able to do all of this while its position on the battlefield is irrelevant to its target.

WTF. then rise goes and nerfs it's speed by 10m/s. LOL


yes its imbalanced. Amazingly so. sentry drones don't worry about transversal as much. You dump em and kite freely around the battlefield. Maybe they'd be more balanced if you were forced to maintain a closer proximity to the sentries...like within 30K rather than simply *on grid*.

But yes the Ishtar is the most free flying ship. This slight range nerf and such will have a measurable impact. But at the end of the day it begins to eat away at its drone specialization. I'd argue more that the other HAC's aren't specialized enough in their roles...that their bonuses aren't significant enough. Just look at how weak the eagle is. It is slow...does like half the dps of the ishtar and has no drones.


I agree with your thoughts about bringing other HACs up. Your suggestion might be something that works too (within a certain range of sentries). Also, removing the sentry drones entirely should be considered. They are simply too powerful for a cruiser hull.

I still think the ishtar needs to be nerfed, with all other HACs improved. Even that might not be enough though. It's the fundamental way the weapon system works.

Imagine the eagle being able to switch between small, medium, and large guns, all of which are bonused. I bet ishtar fanboys would be screaming then. Hilariously, it's exactly what that done boat does.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#933 - 2014-08-03 22:37:54 UTC
Shield and MWD only in the mids?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#934 - 2014-08-03 22:40:19 UTC
Nope, but you ought to be able to work it out.

It's a fleet fit.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#935 - 2014-08-03 22:40:49 UTC
Phaade wrote:

Why not just get rid of the Ishtar? Why fly it when you can fly a Gila?
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#936 - 2014-08-03 22:43:59 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Nope, but you ought to be able to work it out.

It's a fleet fit.

So add an Omni and you still can not keep your targets from just warping.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#937 - 2014-08-03 22:46:50 UTC
It's funny because I search through the killboards and see Ishtars dying to other HACs.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#938 - 2014-08-03 22:50:44 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Nope, but you ought to be able to work it out.

It's a fleet fit.

So add an Omni and you still can not keep your targets from just warping.



It's a FLEET ship. Are you new at this?

Just what is it you think you're pointing at 40-80kms anyway?
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#939 - 2014-08-03 23:11:28 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Nope, but you ought to be able to work it out.

It's a fleet fit.

So add an Omni and you still can not keep your targets from just warping.



It's a FLEET ship. Are you new at this?

Just what is it you think you're pointing at 40-80kms anyway?

So with certain fleet comps and proper support it is a good ship.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#940 - 2014-08-03 23:19:18 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
"Good"? Try preposterously overpowered with stats, fittings and application other ships in the class could only DREAM of.

When the counter to X, is MORE X on the other side, you have a problem. And that's where ishtars are.

Can they die? Sure.
Do they bring far more to the table than any other HAC and do it in the same damned fit no matter the comparision HAC? Incontrovertibly.

The closest match is a cerberus, which cannot get near what an ishtar can do, unless it could magically swap from RLML, to HAMS to HML without a depot or docking. Plus fitting neuts to handle tackle. And with extra lows so nanos are viable whilst still keeping 3 damage mods.

THAT's the kind of nonsense going on here.


Edit: A cerberus wil manage about 80-100 DPS (depending on rigs) shooting faction EM missiles at a MWD ishtar. The ishtar, on the other hand, will tear the cerberus apart because it has nothing like the application issues.