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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#841 - 2014-08-02 09:18:42 UTC
while we are making silly proposal: sentry killmails.
Marc Durant
#842 - 2014-08-02 09:18:46 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.


Dunno, i see cerb fits with 589@122 , 340/626@109 and 812@43 , so yes, please define battleship level of dps, because we have bs doing from ~600 ( artys :( ) trough domis 750 up to abaddon doing 950 @ 30-45km, not even going into pirate ones and faction amplifiers or , gosh, overheating :)



If you start using OH numbers for that cerb you'll have to also use OH numbers for its BS counterpart; the Raven. And then the Raven does a lot more dps.


Never mind heat, fury heavy missiles.....because they work well on anything smaller than a MWD shield tanked battle cruiser and up....or not.


The number he stated IS fury and also OH.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#843 - 2014-08-02 09:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Janice en Marland
Marc Durant wrote:

They have the same drone bonuses. Dominix can fit large guns and more damage mods( or tracking enhancers).

Edit: Can also fit more medium guns if that's your thing. Why you wouldn't just drop sentries MJD in and use blasters or neuts is beyond me though.
Marc Durant
#844 - 2014-08-02 09:28:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Marc Durant
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:

They have the same drone bonuses. Dominix can fit large guns and more damage mods( or tracking enhancers).


So you're going shield instead of armour to pile on the mag stabs/TE, and by doing so you forfeit the option to use omniD. That sounds like a really good plan tbh, messing up your main damage's range/tracking favour of a ****** unbonused weapon. Non tanked allout DDA/magstab/TE with 2-3 omniD is not a realistic fit. Keep trying though.

In any realistic fit that uses sentries for main damage there is no real point in fitting a few unbonused turrets in spare slots that don't have damage and tracking mods. Those slots are better used to augment your sentries, prop mods, sebos and whatnot instead of wasting them on support mods for turrets.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#845 - 2014-08-02 09:33:58 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:

They have the same drone bonuses. Dominix can fit large guns and more damage mods( or tracking enhancers).


So you're going shield instead of armour to pile on the mag stabs/TE, and by doing so you forfeit the option to use omniD. That sounds like a really good plan tbh, messing up your main damage's range/tracking favour of a ****** unbonused weapon. Non tanked allout DDA/magstab/TE with 2-3 omniD is not a realistic fit. Keep trying though.

Because shield Dominixs aren't a thing. You can hull tank it also. It doesn't matter. A Dominix can bring more DPS.
Marc Durant
#846 - 2014-08-02 09:37:01 UTC
You still haven't shown us numbers on how a domi with 425 and a realistic fit does significantly more damage compared to an Ishtar at 50 and 100km ranges.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#847 - 2014-08-02 09:42:29 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
You still haven't shown us numbers on how a domi with 425 and a realistic fit does significantly more damage compared to an Ishtar at 50 and 100km ranges.

First, I never said 425's. Second, a Dominix has the same bonuses for drones as an Ishtar. Third, the Dominix has more room for damage mods. Thus, a Dominix with one more DDA2 will do more damage than an Ishtar and it has room for larger guns, neuts, smartbombs, RR, etc.
Marc Durant
#848 - 2014-08-02 09:50:18 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
You still haven't shown us numbers on how a domi with 425 and a realistic fit does significantly more damage compared to an Ishtar at 50 and 100km ranges.

First, I never said 425's. Second, a Dominix has the same bonuses for drones as an Ishtar. Third, the Dominix has more room for damage mods. Thus, a Dominix with one more DDA2 will do more damage than an Ishtar and it has room for larger guns, neuts, smartbombs, RR, etc.


We're talking about sentries, which *kinda* indicates ranged engagements where your lol blasters won't work. And if your sole reasoning is "Domi can fit one more DDA and this makes it clearly superior, countering the 'Ishtar is too good, it compares too well to its BS counterpart'" then I have news for you; you're a hypocrite, you're trying too hard and no one is falling for it.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#849 - 2014-08-02 09:58:52 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
The Ishtar fills a niche no other HAC does. If anything I suggest a buff of the Eagle. Can we also define BS level DPS?


BS level DPS = DPS level exceeding projection and damage of medium weapon systems with a significant margin.

So where do Command Ships fall into this? If I'm not mistaken an Eos can out DPS an Ishtar.


With what kind of a fit? I've never seen Eos flown as anything else than an actual command ship as the bonuses are not really fleet-worthy. I'm seeing exact same DPS output (because of bonuses) as Ishtar, minus tracking and optimals which is a major reason why Ishtar is used, 37,5% helps with applied DPS immensely, here's a pretty graph with Bouncers against a shield-tanked tengu:

http://i.imgur.com/SJx3M3t.jpg

Same graph with Gardes against a Guardian:

http://i.imgur.com/5f8aXUs.jpg

Bouncers against a Guardian:

http://i.imgur.com/S4hUu7p.jpg

Eos is built around heavy drones which would take considerable time to reach to 60k to hit anything and in case of anything going over 2,1k (like an ishtar) the heavies would not even be able to catch them.

Do you have the fits to go with the pretty graphs?


3x DDA II
2x Omni II with tracking scripts
All V
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#850 - 2014-08-02 10:01:27 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.


Dunno, i see cerb fits with 589@122 , 340/626@109 and 812@43 , so yes, please define battleship level of dps, because we have bs doing from ~600 ( artys :( ) trough domis 750 up to abaddon doing 950 @ 30-45km, not even going into pirate ones and faction amplifiers or , gosh, overheating :)



If you start using OH numbers for that cerb you'll have to also use OH numbers for its BS counterpart; the Raven. And then the Raven does a lot more dps.


I didnt, no numbers i mentioned are OH. :)
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#851 - 2014-08-02 10:04:52 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
You still haven't shown us numbers on how a domi with 425 and a realistic fit does significantly more damage compared to an Ishtar at 50 and 100km ranges.

First, I never said 425's. Second, a Dominix has the same bonuses for drones as an Ishtar. Third, the Dominix has more room for damage mods. Thus, a Dominix with one more DDA2 will do more damage than an Ishtar and it has room for larger guns, neuts, smartbombs, RR, etc.


We're talking about sentries, which *kinda* indicates ranged engagements where your lol blasters won't work. And if your sole reasoning is "Domi can fit one more DDA and this makes it clearly superior, countering the 'Ishtar is too good, it compares too well to its BS counterpart'" then I have news for you; you're a hypocrite, you're trying too hard and no one is falling for it.

I never said a Dominix was a counter to an Ishtar. I have broken down the concept that a Dominix can do more damage with sentries than an Ishtar. With the MJD, you have the ability to keep the ranged engagements or apply DPS(neuts, smartbombs, etc.) up close. The Dominix purpose isn't to snipe (even though it can do it more than adequately). The Ishtar was designed to engage targets at range.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#852 - 2014-08-02 10:06:40 UTC
Marc Durant wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
You still haven't shown us numbers on how a domi with 425 and a realistic fit does significantly more damage compared to an Ishtar at 50 and 100km ranges.

First, I never said 425's. Second, a Dominix has the same bonuses for drones as an Ishtar. Third, the Dominix has more room for damage mods. Thus, a Dominix with one more DDA2 will do more damage than an Ishtar and it has room for larger guns, neuts, smartbombs, RR, etc.


We're talking about sentries, which *kinda* indicates ranged engagements where your lol blasters won't work. And if your sole reasoning is "Domi can fit one more DDA and this makes it clearly superior, countering the 'Ishtar is too good, it compares too well to its BS counterpart'" then I have news for you; you're a hypocrite, you're trying too hard and no one is falling for it.


IMO, notions like "dominix does more adamage with sentries because it can fit 425's and the ishtar never ever fits 4x dda" are the plague.

But please continue.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#853 - 2014-08-02 10:07:35 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:

No gun systems? The Eos does receive tracking bonuses for those also. Let's no forget the Command Links.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#854 - 2014-08-02 10:10:14 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
While we have the nerf bat out, can you please nerf the Harpy and Cerberus? Our alliance is to large and slow to adapt to these constant changes. Please help us.


What is with you people?

The assault frigate changes have been on TQ for a very long time now and this weak you figured out they are strong?

Congratulations

I figured that out the day I read the post here but I also started talking at age 0.6, so I guess you are just slow..

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Marc Durant
#855 - 2014-08-02 10:23:46 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Marc Durant wrote:

- while sentries are fine, 5 of them on a cruiser hull is not fine. Their damage and projection is beyond silly compared to other medium weapon systems. a Vaga does not do BS lvls of dps, neither does a Zealot, Deimos, Cerb or any other HAC and they certainly don't have their projection (they may have the range but lack the dps). The odd one out is of course the Ishtar. Capable of doing 750@50m and 620@120km (depending on fit of course but for some uses those are factual numbers), that's just moronic levels of projection. Yes, drones have their own problems yaddayadda but no problem is bad enough to make those numbers defendable.


Dunno, i see cerb fits with 589@122 , 340/626@109 and 812@43 , so yes, please define battleship level of dps, because we have bs doing from ~600 ( artys :( ) trough domis 750 up to abaddon doing 950 @ 30-45km, not even going into pirate ones and faction amplifiers or , gosh, overheating :)



If you start using OH numbers for that cerb you'll have to also use OH numbers for its BS counterpart; the Raven. And then the Raven does a lot more dps.


I didnt, no numbers i mentioned are OH. :)


That's funny, your 589 dps is the exact number you get when you use fury and OH. There is no other way to get even remotely close to that dps number at ~100km. You could get close to it if you'd use a silly fit or include the awesome dps gain from those 3 lights and somehow assume they apply damage at 100km.

589 is the exact number with using Fury, OH and 3 bcs.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#856 - 2014-08-02 10:31:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
Janice en Marland wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:

No gun systems? The Eos does receive tracking bonuses for those also. Let's no forget the Command Links.


Okay, something you couldn't use in a fleet:

[Eos, Eos fit]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II

250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Bouncer II x5

http://i.imgur.com/COzSScN.jpg

Raw DPS is higher, but applied DPS is appaling. Only Ishtar and Dominix have this projection from subcaps and is the reason why they are used. Yoiu can go and fiddle with links as much as you want to, unless you can increase Eos tracking by 40%, you will never even get close to applied DPS of an Ishtar.

Edit: added 2x DLA to both:

http://i.imgur.com/I9TT5Bn.jpg
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#857 - 2014-08-02 10:32:13 UTC
Please give the Sacrilege another low slot and increase its base speed, I love the current high slots but maybe dropping one of the launcher highs for better damage bonus's and getting a 6th low would be good.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog
Marc Durant
#858 - 2014-08-02 10:35:00 UTC
Janice en Marland wrote:
I never said a Dominix was a counter to an Ishtar. I have broken down the concept that a Dominix can do more damage with sentries than an Ishtar. With the MJD, you have the ability to keep the ranged engagements or apply DPS(neuts, smartbombs, etc.) up close. The Dominix purpose isn't to snipe (even though it can do it more than adequately). The Ishtar was designed to engage targets at range.


No.

1) at ranges where sentries work blaster don't work, and vice versa. As such making a combo if those two and then go "look at that dps" is unrealistic.

2) while the Domi can't really get away with a shield fit in most situations the Ishtar can and generally does, LSE scales much better on cruisers and its innate t2 resists help a ton. As such the ishtar can easily fit 3 DDA and if you don't need a nanofiber even a 4th. Making it no different (and actually better in many cases) than the Domi.

Yes, yes I am. Thanks for noticing.
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
#859 - 2014-08-02 11:12:26 UTC
Adrie Atticus wrote:
Janice en Marland wrote:
Adrie Atticus wrote:

No gun systems? The Eos does receive tracking bonuses for those also. Let's no forget the Command Links.


Okay, something you couldn't use in a fleet:

[Eos, Eos fit]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II
Tracking Computer II

250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
250mm Railgun II, Spike M
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

[Empty Rig slot]
[Empty Rig slot]

Bouncer II x5

http://i.imgur.com/COzSScN.jpg

Raw DPS is higher, but applied DPS is appaling. Only Ishtar and Dominix have this projection from subcaps and is the reason why they are used. Yoiu can go and fiddle with links as much as you want to, unless you can increase Eos tracking by 40%, you will never even get close to applied DPS of an Ishtar.

Edit: added 2x DLA to both:

http://i.imgur.com/I9TT5Bn.jpg

This is just silly. I thought the "battlship level DPS" meant DPS numbers obtained from a battleship. Not DPS to 90k. An Eos with Heavys and Blasters and produce Battleship level DPS while providing links.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#860 - 2014-08-02 11:12:35 UTC
that eos/tristan gun tracking bonus sure is utter trash. ccp please fix.