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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#781 - 2014-08-01 14:47:51 UTC
And the point is, if you nerf sentries to reign ishtars in, you break everything else.

This is not quite necessary (yet). There are other ways to handle the ishtar and keep the changes limited to that for a small pass.

Like I say, initially I'd like to see them forced into reasonably tough (it's a HAC, after all so you should be skilled to fit it well) fitting compromises to stop it being able to do everything in a single fit and reassess from there.


Don't get me wrong, long term it probably all needs looking at but in there here and now the istar needs sorting and then we want to see how the meta settles from there.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#782 - 2014-08-01 14:50:42 UTC
afkalt wrote:
And the point is, if you nerf sentries to reign ishtars in, you break everything else.

This is not quite necessary (yet). There are other ways to handle the ishtar and keep the changes limited to that for a small pass.

Like I say, initially I'd like to see them forced into reasonably tough (it's a HAC, after all so you should be skilled to fit it well) fitting compromises to stop it being able to do everything in a single fit and reassess from there.


Don't get me wrong, long term it probably all needs looking at but in there here and now the istar needs sorting and then we want to see how the meta settles from there.


only the dominix has a bonus specifically for sentry drones. if all these other drone ships are completely reliant on sentry drones, then that should be changed as well, because it's dumb.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#783 - 2014-08-01 14:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
I'm thinking of boats with 100-125m3 and drone bonuses (plus the rattlesnake) - there are a few.

If you nerf sentries so the super bonused hulls are balanced, everything else that used is smoked as a number of hulls can and do use sentries without super bonuses. VNI, Geddon for example.



As I say I am not adverse a sentry rip up, but in the interim, something needs to be done about the Ishtar and my preference would be to fix that now in isolation rather than fix that now and take other hulls down with it as collateral damage. For example as I mentioned the drone control range bonus could be chopped forcing DLA fitting - which are CPU intensive and modify it's CPU so suddenly it has to think about its fitting options.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#784 - 2014-08-01 15:08:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
afkalt wrote:
I'm thinking of boats with 100-125m3 and drone bonuses (plus the rattlesnake) - there are a few.

If you nerf sentries so the super bonused hulls are balanced, everything else that used is smoked as a number of hulls can and do use sentries without super bonuses. VNI, Geddon for example.



As I say I am not adverse a sentry rip up, but in the interim, something needs to be done about the Ishtar and my preference would be to fix that now in isolation rather than fix that now and take other hulls down with it as collateral damage. For example as I mentioned the drone control range bonus could be chopped forcing DLA fitting - which are CPU intensive and modify it's CPU so suddenly it has to think about its fitting options.



Let me REPEAT ... ALL THE SHIPS that rely on 5 sentries are overpowered right now. Because Sentries were not created for a game where there are drone damage mods. They track as short range guns but reach range of long range guns, they now do MORE dps than long rang guns...

Just pay attention on how far a geddon can project damage without usign ANY of his high slots!!!! And how much damage it is, all that while tracking well enough to kill AB cruisers at tackle range. Now see how much damage a tmepest can do at that same range, using 6 of his slots, massive fittings that make impossible to fit a good tank, and massively inferior tracking!!! You can replace the tempest for almost any battleship (Except the APOC that is the god sniper of mount olympus)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#785 - 2014-08-01 15:11:12 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
all that while tracking well enough to kill AB cruisers at tackle range.

try and kill an ABing armor cruiser that is orbiting your sentries at 5k and let me know how that works out.

JUSTK is recruiting
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#786 - 2014-08-01 15:16:17 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Just pay attention on how far a geddon can project damage without usign ANY of his high slots!!!!


60km, is this a trick question ?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#787 - 2014-08-01 15:18:26 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Just pay attention on how far a geddon can project damage without usign ANY of his high slots!!!!


60km, is this a trick question ?


Well it's still about 60km more than any BS if left without any high...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#788 - 2014-08-01 15:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
So why are more expensive Ishtars FOTM? Because they're flat out miles above everything else.

So, rather than debate in circles, how do you propose to fix all the 125m3 boats and STILL contain the ishtar? Because as I see it the first order of business is to get that thing off the steroids and down to the level of the rest, then assess the rest later on.

If you dont address the ishtar one of two things happen - the rest are nerfed to worthlessness and the ishtar is competitive. Or you nerf the others to competitive and the ishtar still smokes everything else.

It's a small patch, really, we're not going to change the world in this go around so the ishtar is definitely the right place to start.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#789 - 2014-08-01 15:22:16 UTC
afkalt wrote:
So why are more expensive Ishtars FOTM? Because they're flat out miles above everything else.

So, rather than debate in circles, how do you propose to fix all the 125m3 boats and STILL contain the ishtar? Because as I see it the first order of business is to get that thing off the steroids and down to the level of the rest, then assess the rest later on.

If you dont address the ishtar one of two things happen - the rest are nerfed to worthlessness and the ishtar is competitive. Or you nerf the others to competitive and the ishtar still smokes everything else.

It's a small patch, really, we're not going to change the world in this go around so the ishtar is definitely the right place to start.



because of mobility. But that is an issue of balance between battleship and hac class. Sentry boats are the most powerful whithin the class, regardless of the class.

Let me repeat. EVERY SHIP TH AT USES SENTRIES NEEDS to be nerfed. So its good that everyone usign sentries woudl be nerfed.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#790 - 2014-08-01 15:23:21 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Just pay attention on how far a geddon can project damage without usign ANY of his high slots!!!!


60km, is this a trick question ?


Well it's still about 60km more than any BS if left without any high...



Exaclty.... they can dish 60 km range about same DPS than long range guns can dish on ships without range bonus. All taht without usign a SINGLE high slots or fitting.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#791 - 2014-08-01 15:23:57 UTC
And like I keep saying if you dont fix the ishtar NOW, any sentry rebalance is doomed to failure on some level.

So how to we kick the ishtar down to domi power levels?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#792 - 2014-08-01 15:25:23 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
all that while tracking well enough to kill AB cruisers at tackle range.

try and kill an ABing armor cruiser that is orbiting your sentries at 5k and let me know how that works out.



yes you should not be able to kill it at 5 km. But you should not be able to kill it at 20 as well!!

Show me a large long rage gun that can track an AB cruiser at 20 km...

No.. be outtracked at 5 km is NOT enough!!! At that range even Pulse lasers and 800MM ac will be outracked!!!

You just supported my point that sentries track TOO MUCH for their range potential.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#793 - 2014-08-01 15:25:51 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Just pay attention on how far a geddon can project damage without usign ANY of his high slots!!!!


60km, is this a trick question ?


Well it's still about 60km more than any BS if left without any high...


Please tell me how fitting guns disables your drone bay.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#794 - 2014-08-01 15:29:37 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
all that while tracking well enough to kill AB cruisers at tackle range.

try and kill an ABing armor cruiser that is orbiting your sentries at 5k and let me know how that works out.



yes you should not be able to kill it at 5 km. But you should not be able to kill it at 20 as well!!

Show me a large long rage gun that can track an AB cruiser at 20 km...

No.. be outtracked at 5 km is NOT enough!!! At that range even Pulse lasers and 800MM ac will be outracked!!!

You just supported my point that sentries track TOO MUCH for their range potential.


I'm pretty sure 800's track better than gardes. 0.04 (at no skills) vs 0.04 (with no skills to improve it). Bonused hulls might change that. There may be rounder errors here, phone app.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#795 - 2014-08-01 15:29:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sara Tosa
Kagura Nikon wrote:


They are basically the only bttleships used. The dominix is the best fleet battleship unless you want to make an alpha fleet, the best close range battleship, the best POS bash battleship, the best RR gang battleship.

mmm, no, most other bs can have better tank, dps, speed than a domi.
its just that bs are in a bad shape overall and domis are the one that synergize better with most recent meta.
but only because they are the LEAST bad for current meta, not because they are so good.
btw the common speak is about "1000+ megathron", not about "1000+ potatoes"....
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#796 - 2014-08-01 15:38:07 UTC
afkalt wrote:
And like I keep saying if you dont fix the ishtar NOW, any sentry rebalance is doomed to failure on some level.

So how to we kick the ishtar down to domi power levels?


You mean short of making it slower and increase its sig to battleship levels ?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#797 - 2014-08-01 15:42:46 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
afkalt wrote:
And like I keep saying if you dont fix the ishtar NOW, any sentry rebalance is doomed to failure on some level.

So how to we kick the ishtar down to domi power levels?


You mean short of making it slower and increase its sig to battleship levels ?


Whatever works, but if people want a global sentry nerf, then the outlier (ishtar) needs fixing first.

A few ways to fix it have been posted. Doesnt really matter which, I don't suppose.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#798 - 2014-08-01 15:44:42 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Just pay attention on how far a geddon can project damage without usign ANY of his high slots!!!!


60km, is this a trick question ?


Well it's still about 60km more than any BS if left without any high...



Exaclty.... they can dish 60 km range about same DPS than long range guns can dish on ships without range bonus. All taht without usign a SINGLE high slots or fitting.


Its actually less, if you take implants and overheating into account. Geddon 748 dps@30+12, Megathron 959dps@36+30 .

If you want to split hairs, that is.
Pheusia
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#799 - 2014-08-01 15:46:28 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
all that while tracking well enough to kill AB cruisers at tackle range.

try and kill an ABing armor cruiser that is orbiting your sentries at 5k and let me know how that works out.



yes you should not be able to kill it at 5 km. But you should not be able to kill it at 20 as well!!

Show me a large long rage gun that can track an AB cruiser at 20 km...

No.. be outtracked at 5 km is NOT enough!!! At that range even Pulse lasers and 800MM ac will be outracked!!!

You just supported my point that sentries track TOO MUCH for their range potential.


I'm pretty sure 800's track better than gardes. 0.04 (at no skills) vs 0.04 (with no skills to improve it). Bonused hulls might change that. There may be rounder errors here, phone app.


1) Gardes way outrange 800MM ACs

2) Sentries are long-range weapons. You should be comparing them to beams, rails and arty.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#800 - 2014-08-01 15:52:14 UTC
30kms is hardly "long range".

Point is the "short range" sentries cant match tracking on guns of that size.


Irrespective, it's off on a tangent - how do we fix the ishtar? Without buggering loads of other stuff at the same time.