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[I-RED] "Project Dustbowl" DECLASSIFIED

Author
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#81 - 2014-07-31 10:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

As you wrote that in response to an Amarrian, it should come with little surprise that I'm not agreeing at all. Especially for those that converted freely it ended quite well. Take, for example, the Khanid.


Emphasis mine.

That's the key word here, "freely". Anyone that did not do it freely had a bad time. That said, we should probably have this conversation another time if you wish. I already know where this is going to go and this thread isn't the place for it I'm afraid.

Again, I don't agree, but this is indeed not the place do debate the general merits of forced conversion.
The point is, noone was forced to convert in this specific case: In fact, there were colonies refusing to take in missionaries at all and whose refusal was respected. Only the colony that directly expressed their refusal through violence was excised from the program - not for their refusal, but for that violent reaction.
Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2014-07-31 15:14:22 UTC
Leopold Caine wrote:

Claudia Osyn wrote:

The Intaki are part of the Federation, so warring with the Feds means warring with the Intaki.


I'm sure ms. en Diabel would find this rather humorous.

The relationship between Federal Intaki and the Syndicate is... complicated. While most of us Federals may not approve of Queen Silphy's criminal endeavors, any actual attempt by other empires to invade Syndicate space would likely result in Federation Intaki petitioning the Federation to intervene.
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2014-07-31 19:21:24 UTC
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The point is, noone was forced to convert in this specific case: In fact, there were colonies refusing to take in missionaries at all and whose refusal was respected. Only the colony that directly expressed their refusal through violence was excised from the program - not for their refusal, but for that violent reaction.


I suppose you're correct. Forgive me though, for I'm still not completely confident in this.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#84 - 2014-07-31 20:33:13 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The point is, noone was forced to convert in this specific case: In fact, there were colonies refusing to take in missionaries at all and whose refusal was respected. Only the colony that directly expressed their refusal through violence was excised from the program - not for their refusal, but for that violent reaction.


I suppose you're correct. Forgive me though, for I'm still not completely confident in this.


*whispers* Racism!

Be honest, you saw a Deteis, heard the word 'sterilise' and a lot of you made your minds up right then and there...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-07-31 21:11:56 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The point is, noone was forced to convert in this specific case: In fact, there were colonies refusing to take in missionaries at all and whose refusal was respected. Only the colony that directly expressed their refusal through violence was excised from the program - not for their refusal, but for that violent reaction.


I suppose you're correct. Forgive me though, for I'm still not completely confident in this.


*whispers* Racism!

Be honest, you saw a Deteis, heard the word 'sterilise' and a lot of you made your minds up right then and there...


Please tell me you aren't serious.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#86 - 2014-07-31 21:31:47 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The point is, noone was forced to convert in this specific case: In fact, there were colonies refusing to take in missionaries at all and whose refusal was respected. Only the colony that directly expressed their refusal through violence was excised from the program - not for their refusal, but for that violent reaction.


I suppose you're correct. Forgive me though, for I'm still not completely confident in this.


*whispers* Racism!

Be honest, you saw a Deteis, heard the word 'sterilise' and a lot of you made your minds up right then and there...


Please tell me you aren't serious.


Don't call me 'Shirley'.... Oh... wow... Way to screw up the joke, Fred...

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#87 - 2014-07-31 22:46:18 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Nicoletta Mithra wrote:

The point is, noone was forced to convert in this specific case: In fact, there were colonies refusing to take in missionaries at all and whose refusal was respected. Only the colony that directly expressed their refusal through violence was excised from the program - not for their refusal, but for that violent reaction.


I suppose you're correct. Forgive me though, for I'm still not completely confident in this.


*whispers* Racism!

Be honest, you saw a Deteis, heard the word 'sterilise' and a lot of you made your minds up right then and there...


Please tell me you aren't serious.


Don't call me 'Shirley'.... Oh... wow... Way to screw up the joke, Fred...


Sowwy Cry I'll try not to next time!

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Utsukushi Shi
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-07-31 23:39:51 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Utsukushi Shi wrote:
That point where Kim and Thiesant are on the same side.

You must be doing something right Oniseki-haan.

Lies and anti-Caldari propaganda.
I would never stay on his side, I'd better kill myself!


You say this.....
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#89 - 2014-08-01 02:35:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Fredfredbug4 wrote:

My primary concern with this comes from a rather textbook imperialistic takeover of these colonies. Normally the State is quite opposed to such ventures. While I-RED does not represent the whole State, they have been known to uphold traditional State values. As a result I have to ask, were these forced conversions and influx of State and Amarrian culture truly necessary for this project's success if it is the humanitarian operation you claim it to be?


You seem to be under the impression that there is a difference between humanitarian efforts and implementing basic necessities and stability through Caldari methods and Amarr faith. In my mind the concepts are not mutually exclusive.

We did not intervene in order to give them a fish and leave. We gave them a fish, showed them how to catch more, set up a business arrangement where we supply their bait and tackle, and pointed them to the best waters on their lake. We intervened to improve and optimize their very way of life. We didn't just build them infrastructure, we taught them how to use and maintain it. Whether their P3 integration is successful or not is their responsibility.

So, in my mind, we took over because we know better. After all, isnt that exactly what your people do too? Except, ours is only temporary.

Katrina Oniseki

Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2014-08-01 02:36:09 UTC
Utsukushi Shi wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Utsukushi Shi wrote:
That point where Kim and Thiesant are on the same side.

You must be doing something right Oniseki-haan.

Lies and anti-Caldari propaganda.
I would never stay on his side, I'd better kill myself!


You say this.....


Why does this sound like a scandal-in-progress?

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-08-01 04:45:49 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:


So, in my mind, we took over because we know better. After all, isnt that exactly what your people do too? Except, ours is only temporary.


We'll just have to wait and see then.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!

Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#92 - 2014-08-01 16:06:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitcher
The important point is that when Caldari practice humanitarian aid, we understand when we're wasting our efforts that could be more effectively spent elsewhere.

If you do all of that fish-related stuff that Chūjō Oniseki just described and the people you did it for still manage to starve to death, continuing to patiently go down there with a pole and the big-print animated-illustration version of "the child's guide to fishing" basically constitutes throwing good money after bad.

Humanitarian aid is an investment, after all. There's no good reason not to expect the beneficiaries to show that they've put it to good use.

As ever, I-RED are doing commendable work, and have my respect and admiration.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders

Joshua Foiritain
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#93 - 2014-08-02 12:42:22 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
As for a guided tour of these locations, I suppose we can work with that, yes. I'll even throw in a tour of the sterilized colony, just to lay these mass murder concerns to rest.

I would be quite interested in visiting these locations. Please do contact me when these tours are starting.

The Coreli Corporation is recruiting.

Hevaima Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#94 - 2014-08-02 12:56:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Hevaima Gesakaarin
For decades the citizens of the Intaki Syndicate have remained the victims of a Federal foreign policy supported by consecutive government Administrations that tacitly condones the tactics of military intimidation and the threat of violence. One needs only look to Federal militarists and Gallentean nationalists such as Mentas Blaque whose Presidential campaign promises of, "Action" against the Intaki of the Syndicate was nothing more than a byword for direct military invasion. No doubt after such an invasion by the Federation into the Syndicate the survivors of the war would have been prime candidates for, "Domestic Naturalization," within, "Cultural Habitats" for a President Blaque where having been stripped of their political independence at the barrel of the gun they can learn the true meaning of Federal democracy through government-sponsored ethnic apartheid.

That Mentas Blaque lost the Presidential elections in YC 108 by only a small margin, remains indicative that the policies of military intervention and intimidation by the Federation against the free people of the Intaki Syndicate is a popular option not only of the Federal government but of its citizens. It is a tragic state of affairs when the Intaki of the Syndicate are to be persecuted by the Federation as terrorists and vilified as criminals when the only crime committed is to value independence and self-determination as a free people.

It is nothing more than arrogance to claim an entire people as criminals when it is the tools of economic sanctions and trade embargoes combined with the denial of planetary resources upon threat of war by the Federation against the Intaki Syndicate that would cause them to seek alternative means to their own survival. The Federation's dogs of war appear readily summoned to feast on the bones of an impoverished and weakened people denied the right to their own future prosperity. Ideals of freedom or democracy easily abandoned when the Intaki of the Syndicate freely and democratically decide they do not desire to comply with what the Federation deems to be its own self-interest at the expense of their own independence and autonomy.

I-RED and their allied partners in Project Dustbowl should be commended for their efforts in refusing to perpetuate the long years of injustices meted out by the Federation against the Intaki Syndicate through adherence to the Caldari traditions of fair, equitable, and honourable deals aimed at ensuring mutual advantage for all involved.

That Federalist apologists and partisan political provocateurs would use an announcement of the Project made in good faith and honest transparency as the opportunity to engage in attempts at scandal and smear is unfortunate, but perhaps unfortunately unsurprising.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#95 - 2014-08-02 16:49:24 UTC
Joshua Foiritain wrote:
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
As for a guided tour of these locations, I suppose we can work with that, yes. I'll even throw in a tour of the sterilized colony, just to lay these mass murder concerns to rest.

I would be quite interested in visiting these locations. Please do contact me when these tours are starting.


No. I'm not interested in entertaining pirate organizations.

Katrina Oniseki

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-08-02 17:47:24 UTC
Hevaima Gesakaarin
Well, it seems indeed that helping Intaki Syndicate means putting sticks into Federal wheels. But on other hand, are there guarantees, that I-RED won't just give it up to Federals? They already had precedent of working with enemy, why this work can't be done for Federals for their money, and just disguised to be as work for the State, because said Syndicate would totally whack federalists away? As you have noted, it is zone of interest for gallenteans, not the State.

But what is more important, that the State needs direct actions against the Federation. We have a war going on, and this alliance just does some shadow affairs in null security space, instead of working for the State, while saying a lot of words about "Caldari". They pull away for their petty needs peoples and resources, that can be used instead in the interests of the State to defend State property and territories.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Bryen Verrisai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2014-08-02 19:19:28 UTC
With all due respect Mr. Gesakaarin, I feel there are some points about the relationship and history between the Federation and the Syndicate that you do not have entirely correct.
Hevaima Gesakaarin wrote:
For decades the citizens of the Intaki Syndicate have remained the victims of a Federal foreign policy

The Syndicate is not a political, sovereign entity. They are more closely analogous with pirate organizations or the Sisters of EVE, or even CONCORD for that matter. One is therefore not a "citizen" of the Syndicate; one is a member of it.

Quote:
That Mentas Blaque lost the Presidential elections in YC 108 by only a small margin, remains indicative that the policies of military intervention and intimidation by the Federation against the free people of the Intaki Syndicate is a popular option not only of the Federal government but of its citizens.

It's a little more complex than that: Mentas Blaque was a considerably better campaigner and, in my opinion, public speaker than former President Foiritan. And not only did he campaign with a considerably greater fervor, he also had the advantage of running against an incumbent president whose actions (that allowed for him to be re-elected in the first place) earned him many, many political detractors. In truth, Blaque would have likely won in a landslide if it wasn't for the very militant and ultra-nationalist rhetoric you criticize bringing voters from the rim worlds out in droves against him.

He did not almost win because of his views; he lost because of them.
Quote:

It is nothing more than arrogance to claim an entire people as criminals

The Syndicate is a criminal organization. Or, if you wish to convey the same meaning more kindly, it is an organization that makes a point not to recognize most established laws present within the empires and facilitates anyone who wishes to operate and profit outside the constraint of those laws. I'm actually rather surprised to see a member of the State defend them so rigorously, considering the Syndicate is one of the biggest money launderers of Caldari scrip.

With that said, it certainly can't be said that every single member of the Syndicate is a criminal. That's just foolish. But it's equally foolish to try and claim that the Syndicate is not something that it proudly admits to being itself.

Quote:

I-RED and their allied partners in Project Dustbowl should be commended for their efforts in refusing to perpetuate the long years of injustices meted out by the Federation against the Intaki Syndicate through adherence to the Caldari traditions of fair, equitable, and honourable deals aimed at ensuring mutual advantage for all involved.

I-RED is not helping the Syndicate. I-RED is helping independent colonists on planets within the Syndicate region.

And as for the long years of injustice, do keep in mind that in spite of its bad history with the Federation the popular opinion among the ranks of the Syndicate is that the Caldari have no business (CEWPA aside) harassing Federation citizens in Placid (and particularly in Intaki). They may not hold us in the Federation in the highest regard, but they are far from being Caldari allies ripe for the picking.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#98 - 2014-08-02 20:13:26 UTC
Bryen Verrisai wrote:

I-RED is not helping the Syndicate. I-RED is helping independent colonists on planets within the Syndicate region.

Syndicate it, or independent colonists, doesn't really matter.
Whomever they help, but not Caldari.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#99 - 2014-08-02 20:25:59 UTC
Why you no teaches us the Caldarings, Kim-senpai? WHY NO LOVE?

Katrina Oniseki

Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#100 - 2014-08-02 21:22:52 UTC
ogodmysides

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.