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Crime & Punishment

 
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pushing for harder punishment on hi sec gankers

First post
Author
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#241 - 2014-08-07 13:46:16 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
*Self-congratulatory post*
Doesn't look like a gank.

And when are you guys going to learn that nobody cares about this whole "kill it forward" rubbish you guys spew. In essence, (not sure about this case as I haven;t bothered reading the thread) it's a sign that someone has raised a good point, since you can;t counter the point and instead want to force people not to post by suggesting that you'll gank more if they keep talking (which you won't, since you'd kill those people anyway).


Lucas, Lucas.... Lucas.

It doesnt look like a gank because its NOT a gank. The kill it forward program strives to keep EvE as a game where loss is permanent, space is dangerous, and the only response to someone crying... is laughter.

Kill it forward kills are performed through trickery, skill, and panache. Not sheer gank force. You really should read up on Feyd's blog before dismissing it as "rubbish".

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#242 - 2014-08-07 13:53:05 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
You are correct. We do not gank. We, on the other hand, do support the rights of others to gank. We will happily murder anyone who screams bloody murder over the unfairness of ganking... and barring the capacity to do that, we will murder someone else in their name. And to counterpoint, there are those who absolutely do care about the 'rubbish' we spew, you, for example... for if you didn't give 1/16th of a rats arse about it, you wouldn't have bothered posting. Aside from that, about 1/4th of those who I do engage are interested in what it is that we do... not only those who are defeated, but I've also had some pleasant conversations with pilots who have destroyed me.
Yup, I only post about things I have a care about. True story bro. You might want to check some of the utterly inane postings I've joined in on.

And that doesn't change the fact that the tactic you attempt to use is an attempt to bully people into not having opinions because your counterpoints are so weak. So consider that when you come into a thread and state that you will kill it forward because they said something you didn't like, you are in fact strengthening their argument.

I also don't disagree with ganking, being a regular participant in Burn Jita and the interdictions, but that doesn't mean that I don;t understand the other viewpoint, and it doesn't mean that I believe the current system to be balanced. It's pretty trivial to gank people and suffer zero consequences for it. For a game that's built on consequence, that seems like a flawed mechanic to me.

But since your opinion differs, I'm going to go ahead and pay it forward. Next carebear noob I find, I'll buy them a decent ship and inform them how to carebear without worrying about gankers. That'll learn you!

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#243 - 2014-08-07 13:55:26 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Lucas, Lucas.... Lucas.

It doesnt look like a gank because its NOT a gank. The kill it forward program strives to keep EvE as a game where loss is permanent, space is dangerous, and the only response to someone crying... is laughter.

Kill it forward kills are performed through trickery, skill, and panache. Not sheer gank force. You really should read up on Feyd's blog before dismissing it as "rubbish".
I've read the blog an I know exactly what it is. It's "I don't know how to respond therefore I'll threaten you with negative consequences if you continue holding your opinions in public". How the kills are performed is irrelevant.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#244 - 2014-08-07 14:04:50 UTC
Hey, that's not a bad idea. Be sure to link them http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca/2014/07/counter-ganking.html
Seriously. It's good advice. You seem to think that we hate the bears, and nothing could be further from the truth. What we want are crusty, wary bears who aren't afraid to bust out their claws to defend what is theirs. A smart, mean bear who's willing to kick some arse is a good bear in my book.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#245 - 2014-08-07 14:21:54 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
How the kills are performed is irrelevant.


Lucas, how the kills are performed is what its all about.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#246 - 2014-08-07 14:22:38 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Hey, that's not a bad idea. Be sure to link them http://evedarklord.blogspot.ca/2014/07/counter-ganking.html
Seriously. It's good advice. You seem to think that we hate the bears, and nothing could be further from the truth. What we want are crusty, wary bears who aren't afraid to bust out their claws to defend what is theirs. A smart, mean bear who's willing to kick some arse is a good bear in my book.
I was thinking more, teach them how to be super carebeary, not ever fighting or speaking to anyone, just tanking enough to be not worth attacking, and avoiding bait. I might even have to start up a massive isboxer mining fleet made of procurers, then just add a procurer every time someone says something I disagree with.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#247 - 2014-08-07 14:29:16 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I was thinking more, teach them how to be super carebeary, not ever fighting or speaking to anyone, just tanking enough to be not worth attacking, and avoiding bait. I might even have to start up a massive isboxer mining fleet made of procurers, then just add a procurer every time someone says something I disagree with.


Lol, now your just trolling.

I suppose it got boring shaming NightmareX into submission.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#248 - 2014-08-07 14:34:05 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Lol, now your just trolling.

I suppose it got boring shaming NightmareX into submission.
lol, yes I am, but the point I'm putting across is legitimate. All I was saying there is that I could do the direct opposite of what these guys do. They blow up carebears when people have opinions they don't like, so conversely I could create carebears when people have opinions I don't like. Both ideas are stupid, since it's avoiding the actual point being discussed.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#249 - 2014-08-07 14:35:08 UTC
Your comp will overload from the added processes of those who disagree with you. You troll on occasion, or frequently... I'm not sure. But speaking as a bear who's in the process of reform I can't disagree with you more.

I've had more fun in the last couple months with the Lords than I had in the seven plus years prior, and I've met some very interesting folks due to the carnage I've helped initiate. I've traded fits with victims and victors, discussed tactics and given advice. In short, I've INTERACTED with my fellow players and in many cases we've both walked away better as a result. Some have expressed interest in joining the selfsame crew I am in as a result. We are making hi-sec more dangerous, more fun, more interactive by doing what we do. And not one, not one toon who has met a Lord on their own terms can say it was someone else's fault.

EVE is meant to be played with others, playing it solo is a slow death of the soul.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#250 - 2014-08-07 14:37:03 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Your comp will overload from the added processes of those who disagree with you. You troll on occasion, or frequently... I'm not sure. But speaking as a bear who's in the process of reform I can't disagree with you more.

I've had more fun in the last couple months with the Lords than I had in the seven plus years prior, and I've met some very interesting folks due to the carnage I've helped initiate. I've traded fits with victims and victors, discussed tactics and given advice. In short, I've INTERACTED with my fellow players and in many cases we've both walked away better as a result. Some have expressed interest in joining the selfsame crew I am in as a result. We are making hi-sec more dangerous, more fun, more interactive by doing what we do. And not one, not one toon who has met a Lord on their own terms can say it was someone else's fault.

EVE is meant to be played with others, playing it solo is a slow death of the soul.


Motherfucking BOOM.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment

Geyene
Doomheim
#251 - 2014-08-07 14:41:43 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Your comp will overload from the added processes of those who disagree with you. You troll on occasion, or frequently... I'm not sure. But speaking as a bear who's in the process of reform I can't disagree with you more.

I've had more fun in the last couple months with the Lords than I had in the seven plus years prior, and I've met some very interesting folks due to the carnage I've helped initiate. I've traded fits with victims and victors, discussed tactics and given advice. In short, I've INTERACTED with my fellow players and in many cases we've both walked away better as a result. Some have expressed interest in joining the selfsame crew I am in as a result. We are making hi-sec more dangerous, more fun, more interactive by doing what we do. And not one, not one toon who has met a Lord on their own terms can say it was someone else's fault.

EVE is meant to be played with others, playing it solo is a slow death of the soul.


dude i swear i heard music swelling as i read this. at least i think it was music.

If the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.   If you have a big enough hammer, every problem is a nail.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#252 - 2014-08-07 14:44:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Leto Thule wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
*Self-congratulatory post*
Doesn't look like a gank.

And when are you guys going to learn that nobody cares about this whole "kill it forward" rubbish you guys spew. In essence, (not sure about this case as I haven;t bothered reading the thread) it's a sign that someone has raised a good point, since you can;t counter the point and instead want to force people not to post by suggesting that you'll gank more if they keep talking (which you won't, since you'd kill those people anyway).


Lucas, Lucas.... Lucas.

It doesnt look like a gank because its NOT a gank. The kill it forward program strives to keep EvE as a game where loss is permanent, space is dangerous, and the only response to someone crying... is laughter.

Kill it forward kills are performed through trickery, skill, and panache. Not sheer gank force. You really should read up on Feyd's blog before dismissing it as "rubbish".

Our program is even more beautiful than that. What makes it special is not only do we provide explosive counter-point to wails for nerfs to the game we love, but we try to recruit those we splode and turn them into killers themselves...

That is Kill-It-Forward.

No other form of win-win scenario (short of a runaway asian schoolgirl finding solace and revenue in the comfort of a long series of older men) displays the same level of panache' and zen-like-oneness with the balance of the universe than that.

F
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#253 - 2014-08-07 14:48:19 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I've had more fun in the last couple months with the Lords than I had in the seven plus years prior, and I've met some very interesting folks due to the carnage I've helped initiate. I've traded fits with victims and victors, discussed tactics and given advice. In short, I've INTERACTED with my fellow players and in many cases we've both walked away better as a result. Some have expressed interest in joining the selfsame crew I am in as a result. We are making hi-sec more dangerous, more fun, more interactive by doing what we do. And not one, not one toon who has met a Lord on their own terms can say it was someone else's fault.

EVE is meant to be played with others, playing it solo is a slow death of the soul.
Good for you. You don't however get to decide what's fun for other people. Some people don't want to do what you do, and EVE isn't meant to be played in any way specifically.

If you enjoy running around shooting people, by all means do so, but don't dismiss other people opinions with threats of attacks just because you disagree with them and are unable to articulate your own opinion.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#254 - 2014-08-07 14:50:59 UTC
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#255 - 2014-08-07 14:59:06 UTC
I only get nasty when people try to turn EVE into a different game. I love this game the way it is... despite the fact I've gotten curb stomped, ragequit, come back for more, curb stomped again... back for more.
I like EVE mean and ugly and welcoming, like a back alley hooker who always puts out, but will shank you with a rusty blade if try to skip out without paying. It's the Mos Eisley of MMO's and that's what keeps so many of us playing it.

Then there are those who come from other mmo's who are infected with the Gygaxian mentality and plagued with the WoW sense of entitlement. They don't want to adapt to something different, they are dead set upon changing that glorious diamond in the rough into something that more suits their own specific needs and desires. This is bad, as EVE has survived so long by being the bad girl she is. To try to gussie her up and make her all respectable is wrong on so many levels... I, and so many like me, love her like the dirty whore she is.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#256 - 2014-08-07 15:17:48 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
I only get nasty when people try to turn EVE into a different game. I love this game the way it is... despite the fact I've gotten curb stomped, ragequit, come back for more, curb stomped again... back for more.
I like EVE mean and ugly and welcoming, like a back alley hooker who always puts out, but will shank you with a rusty blade if try to skip out without paying. It's the Mos Eisley of MMO's and that's what keeps so many of us playing it.

Then there are those who come from other mmo's who are infected with the Gygaxian mentality and plagued with the WoW sense of entitlement. They don't want to adapt to something different, they are dead set upon changing that glorious diamond in the rough into something that more suits their own specific needs and desires. This is bad, as EVE has survived so long by being the bad girl she is. To try to gussie her up and make her all respectable is wrong on so many levels... I, and so many like me, love her like the dirty ***** she is.
Again, good for you. You have a great time doing what you are doing. That doesn't mean the game is perfect for everyone who plays it. I'm certain there are people that have played longer than you that have problems with the way the game is balanced, so why are your opinions on the game any more valid?

Personally, I think that gankers get off pretty easily, and the introduction of security tags has taken away the only actual consequence we ever had. I can now gank to my heart's content, and when I'm done, I pay for a quick sec status upgrade and potentially stick my alt in training for up to 30 days while I wait for killrights to burn off. At no point would I say that ganking needs to be removed or that carebears need more protection, but the consequences of being a ganker do need to be more severe than the "nearly none" they currently are.

I do find it quit funny when people start talking about how dark and unforgiving EVE is, considering there's nearly no consequence to any of the actions those very same people advocate. You're worse than a carebear, since at least they just want to sit in a corner not affecting anyone with no consequences. You want to be able to freely destroy other people's gameplay with no consequences instead. Yeah, you're a real hardcore player.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#257 - 2014-08-07 15:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Omar Alharazaad
Of course the game isn't perfect. There are scads of problems with the game as it stands. I just don't believe that trying to make EVE a soft and cuddly place is a good idea, it's supposed to be harsh, it's supposed to be dangerous... and to be quite honest about it the PVE experience doesn't do that... you only lose ships when you aren't paying attention or happen to be too drunk to target in a timely manner.

What's kept so many of the diehard players over the last eleven years is the sheer unforgiving nature of the game... the whole concept that you can lose because someone else desired it to be so. Those who try to change this fundamental nature of the game are fighting against the nature of EVE. What other manner of retaliation is open to those who embrace an love the whole notion of HTFU? It's kill or be killed or be nerfed into fuzzy 'that's a no place, don't touch there' land?
Even as a bear, or at least former bear... I never once believed I was safe in space, why should anyone else? So the gankers don't suffer as much as the gankee's... big deal. The gankee's have many resources available to them to prevent it from happening to them, most kindly provided by those who are bent on doing the harm to them. Disinformation? Nope, they seriously want harder targets, smarter bears, and less chances to succeed.

In short, or tl;dr, these folks want others to fly smart, fly safe, and be part of the community... not silently soloing off in some remote sector of space, hoping they never see another player on grid.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#258 - 2014-08-07 15:44:38 UTC
Lucas,

For your continued heresies against HTFU and trying to tell us how to play our game, a +1 has been added to the Kill-It-Forward queue.

An innocent carebear will be murdered in your name, and informed you are the direct cause. We thank you for your continued posts and opportunity to further advertise our organization.

And, when we no doubt convert yet another carebear detonee into joining us and walking the golden path, we will again thank you -- for its inspiration from heretics like you that inspire us to keep our faith, and the tears flowing for all to enjoy in holy HTFU communion.

Insha'Allah

F
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#259 - 2014-08-07 15:49:45 UTC
I'll just stop here. The dude in charge has spoken. My next mission is to recruit another soul who embraces our ideals.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#260 - 2014-08-07 15:52:46 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Of course the game isn't perfect. There are scads of problems with the game as it stands. I just don't believe that trying to make EVE a soft and cuddly place is a good idea, it's supposed to be harsh, it's supposed to be dangerous... and to be quite honest about it the PVE experience doesn't do that... you only lose ships when you aren't paying attention or happen to be too drunk to target in a timely manner.
So if PVE players threw away a few T1 catalysts, would they be allowed an opinion then? EVE isn't supposed to be anything. Players drive content, and PVE players are a part of that whether you like it or not. The markets would be completely empty without PVE. Just skillbooks, plex and the odd trade item.

Omar Alharazaad wrote:
What's kept so many of the diehard players over the last eleven years is the sheer unforgiving nature of the game... the whole concept that you can lose because someone else desired it to be so.
Is it really? I'd say it's pretty forgiving to be honest. Even the PvP, it's relatively cheap to be pretty effective, and there's plenty of targets about with zero chance of fighting back. I don't think in my entire history of playing EVE I've ever considered it to be unforgiving, though I've heard people state that more than a few times.

Omar Alharazaad wrote:
So the gankers don't suffer as much as the gankee's... big deal.
Yes, big deal. Why should a ganker be given an easy time, just because he chooses to shoot players instead of NPCs? At least a PvE player risks a significant ship, rather than just a disposable piece of junk and an empty clone on an alt. Effectively you are arguing that your game should be easy because you PvP, and it should be unforgiving on anyone who wants to take part in PvE, even though PvE is also a feature of the game. If that's all it's supposed to be, why not just scrap PvE altogether?

Omar Alharazaad wrote:
In short, or tl;dr, these folks want others to fly smart, fly safe, and be part of the community... not silently soloing off in some remote sector of space, hoping they never see another player on grid.
Well tough. Players will continue to play the game however they want, just like you do. And they have just as much of a right to do so as you.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.