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Battleship and HAC pass
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Xequecal
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#61 - 2014-07-03 20:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Meandering Milieu wrote:
In my opinion if you fly a HAC with less than AWU V you need to make training it to V a priority. It's a long skill sure, but HACs are T2 ships. You wouldn't complain that most HAC fits require T2 guns. You wouldn't complain that the FOTM mission fits require T2 large guns. You wouldn't complain that flying a T3 properly requires all subsystems at V. You wouldn't complain that faction pirate ships require too much SP or are too powerful.


No, I wouldn't, but all racial ship types require T2 guns/missiles. Guess which fits require AWU V? Pretty much only the Amarr ones, and that trend follows across multiple ship classes. Gallente ships, on the other hand, typically don't need AWU at all.

Quote:
Yeah that can work, probably easier in small roams than in big fleet fights though. So you're looking at a reload time of a minute or two while depots online.


In big fleet fights you can also use a carrier, and that requires no waiting.

Quote:
And if lasers are super SP intensive at the moment, does that make Amarr HACs promote elitism too? Do Marauders, command ships, and BLOPs promote elitism? Does the ishtar promote elitism if you are a gallente pilot from birth, like me, and all of your training has always gone into gallente, and so that 9m specialized SP didn't require you to go out of your way? If the ishtar requires so much SP to fly properly, isn't its power justified somewhat?


Actually, the main attraction of T3s is that they DON'T require tons of SP to fly. Yeah, you need Cruiser V, the subsystems to V, and a medium weapon skill to V. That's 13 ranks of V skills and you're good to go. Of course I'm not counting general support skills here, but those apply to all ships. The 130km Ishtar requires 35 ranks of V skills to fly effectively, 40 if you still count Drone Interfacing V as essential. Prepatch with Interfacing at 20%/level it was 42 ranks. The people flying these Ishtars right now dumped almost 11 million SP into them.

Blops and Marauders don't have this problem, Marauders see little PvP use and with blops you only need one to bridge the bombers and recons, not a whole fleet of them.

However, Command Ships definitely have the same issue. Rail Tengus are definitely a thing, so why don't we see rail Vultures? Much more DPS and range on them and they share the absolutely ridiculous tank. They're not clearly superior, each has their advantages and disadvantages, but especially with the new MMJDs and Vultures costing less and not eating SP it should be worth trying, right? Oh, yeah, you're never going to find 150 people that can actually fly a Vulture, because you need 21 ranks in V skills, 15 of which are Charisma skills, just to undock the stupid thing, and none of those SP actually help you fly it at all, those still need to be trained after.
Bohneik Itohn
10.K
#62 - 2014-07-03 22:57:21 UTC
Xequecal wrote:


Actually, the main attraction of T3s is that they DON'T require tons of SP to fly. Yeah, you need Cruiser V, the subsystems to V, and a medium weapon skill to V. That's 13 ranks of V skills and you're good to go. Of course I'm not counting general support skills here, but those apply to all ships. The 130km Ishtar requires 35 ranks of V skills to fly effectively, 40 if you still count Drone Interfacing V as essential. Prepatch with Interfacing at 20%/level it was 42 ranks. The people flying these Ishtars right now dumped almost 11 million SP into them.



Don't require much to sit in, but in order to fly it you're going to need all of the support skills that you would normally train for the entire line of t2 cruisers for that race.

HICs excluded, because HICs smell funny.

If you candidly ignore training up those support skills? Well.... Enjoy losing chunks of what little SP you invested getting into that T3.

Wait, CCP kills kittens now too?!  - Freyya

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HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#63 - 2014-07-04 10:30:03 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
No, I wouldn't, but all racial ship types require T2 guns/missiles. Guess which fits require AWU V? Pretty much only the Amarr ones, and that trend follows across multiple ship classes. Gallente ships, on the other hand, typically don't need AWU at all.

I too, enjoy fitting 800mm plating and electron blasters on battlecruisers.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#64 - 2014-07-04 10:53:52 UTC
Ishtars are a little bit icky at current levels of power. They project too much, too well. I can't think of much justification for the damage they bring at the ranges they do.

Actually I'm very much reminded of the heavy missile nerf because that damage at those ranges was unacceptable....yet wasn't even close to the current ishtar.

And I post this as someone who abuses the ass out of them.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#65 - 2014-07-04 17:20:24 UTC
Fix the muninn!.. its such a turd right now. The ONLY thing i ever saw good from it was in large fleet fights. Alpha muninns, but other than that 1 role, it fails.

If they could add a mid, up the speed (maybe slightly faster (like 100-200 m/s) than Diemos), and increase PG i think it would be decent. As a sacrifice, maybe drop the high like other arty boats tend to sacrifice. It still has drones for some frig defense, unlike the other good arty cruiser (loki).

Then with mixture of cap booster/web/point/mwd/720's, it could function similar as a rail diemos, just faster (it is a minmatar boat) and without the armor rep bonus (again, thats why it needs to be faster). Then i could get that sweet, sexy, alpha. That would help compensate for the pirate ship model.

And before you say, "Well minmatar already have a fast ship with range, the vagabond", yes, but its fall-off bonused, muninn is tracking+optimal bonus. Think like jag/wolf. Wolf is a/c and fall-off, jag is arty and optimal. Kind of a reoccurring theme from the same manufacturers. We're not talking vagabond fast here either, but maybe 2100 with MWD cold. Its at 1700 right now.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Xequecal
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#66 - 2014-07-04 17:34:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Xequecal
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Fix the muninn!.. its such a turd right now. The ONLY thing i ever saw good from it was in large fleet fights. Alpha muninns, but other than that 1 role, it fails.

If they could add a mid, up the speed (maybe slightly faster (like 100-200 m/s) than Diemos), and increase PG i think it would be decent. As a sacrifice, maybe drop the high like other arty boats tend to sacrifice. It still has drones for some frig defense, unlike the other good arty cruiser (loki).

Then with mixture of cap booster/web/point/mwd/720's, it could function similar as a rail diemos, just faster (it is a minmatar boat) and without the armor rep bonus (again, thats why it needs to be faster). Then i could get that sweet, sexy, alpha. That would help compensate for the pirate ship model.

And before you say, "Well minmatar already have a fast ship with range, the vagabond", yes, but its fall-off bonused, muninn is tracking+optimal bonus. Think like jag/wolf. Wolf is a/c and fall-off, jag is arty and optimal. Kind of a reoccurring theme from the same manufacturers. We're not talking vagabond fast here either, but maybe 2100 with MWD cold. Its at 1700 right now.


The Muninn is so awful it's hilarious. Doesn't have the PG for artillery + plate, two giant resist holes in the armor tank, and isn't cap stable on 2 hardeners, MWD, and 2 tracking computers.

Moving the extra high to a mid is the least of what it needs so you can shield tank it reasonably effectively.

Oh, and it has 42% of the DPS, 50% of the tracking, 75% of the EHP, and 75% of the range of an Ishtar with Wardens. Whoops.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#67 - 2014-07-04 17:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Xequecal wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Fix the muninn!.. its such a turd right now. The ONLY thing i ever saw good from it was in large fleet fights. Alpha muninns, but other than that 1 role, it fails.

If they could add a mid, up the speed (maybe slightly faster (like 100-200 m/s) than Diemos), and increase PG i think it would be decent. As a sacrifice, maybe drop the high like other arty boats tend to sacrifice. It still has drones for some frig defense, unlike the other good arty cruiser (loki).

Then with mixture of cap booster/web/point/mwd/720's, it could function similar as a rail diemos, just faster (it is a minmatar boat) and without the armor rep bonus (again, thats why it needs to be faster). Then i could get that sweet, sexy, alpha. That would help compensate for the pirate ship model.

And before you say, "Well minmatar already have a fast ship with range, the vagabond", yes, but its fall-off bonused, muninn is tracking+optimal bonus. Think like jag/wolf. Wolf is a/c and fall-off, jag is arty and optimal. Kind of a reoccurring theme from the same manufacturers. We're not talking vagabond fast here either, but maybe 2100 with MWD cold. Its at 1700 right now.


The Muninn is so awful it's hilarious. Doesn't have the PG for artillery + plate, two giant resist holes in the armor tank, and isn't cap stable on 2 hardeners, MWD, and 2 tracking computers.

Moving the extra high to a mid is the least of what it needs so you can shield tank it reasonably effectively.

Oh, and it has 42% of the DPS, 50% of the tracking, 75% of the EHP, and 75% of the range of an Ishtar with Wardens. Whoops.


Agreed, thats why i said it needs a speed boost, add a mid, add PG. That would get it into a realm of being usable. Also, who said anything about making it shield? As much as i'd like it, i think vaga should stay shield and muninn armor, just like the wolf/jag or Boundless Creations/Thukker. Maybe add a 6th turret, drop RoF bonus and give it a second damage bonus. That way its slow in firing, but has a massive alpha. May be OP, but just a thought.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#68 - 2014-07-04 20:41:05 UTC
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
Fix the muninn!.. its such a turd right now. The ONLY thing i ever saw good from it was in large fleet fights. Alpha muninns, but other than that 1 role, it fails.

If they could add a mid, up the speed (maybe slightly faster (like 100-200 m/s) than Diemos), and increase PG i think it would be decent. As a sacrifice, maybe drop the high like other arty boats tend to sacrifice. It still has drones for some frig defense, unlike the other good arty cruiser (loki).

Then with mixture of cap booster/web/point/mwd/720's, it could function similar as a rail diemos, just faster (it is a minmatar boat) and without the armor rep bonus (again, thats why it needs to be faster). Then i could get that sweet, sexy, alpha. That would help compensate for the pirate ship model.

And before you say, "Well minmatar already have a fast ship with range, the vagabond", yes, but its fall-off bonused, muninn is tracking+optimal bonus. Think like jag/wolf. Wolf is a/c and fall-off, jag is arty and optimal. Kind of a reoccurring theme from the same manufacturers. We're not talking vagabond fast here either, but maybe 2100 with MWD cold. Its at 1700 right now.

The wonky thing about t2 minmatar boats is that their resists predispose them towards shield tanking pretty heavily, but if you kit out a wolf or a muninn the right way, they are absolute monsters.
In regards to speed and fitting, an idea i had I wanted to take a look at was to make it a little more like the wolf. Giving the muninn the same ship bonuses as the wolf I think would be a great route to go with it, and while I would prefer to drop a high for a mid for the possibility of shield tanking for shield buffer fleets, I would like to see it given equal viability for ACs as well as arty, which it actually performs at pretty well. To be fair, there's very little point for a medium arty boat if you're just going for straight alpha damage, at which point the tornado is both a cheaper and more efficient alternative. The issue with the muninn is that it should be more of a fleet boat than the vaga. I think adding an extra gun might be a decent idea, as making it a mini-cane would be fun.